Dark Council Order Of Power

[Kyrrant]

Whatever you say, buttercup.

 

EDIT:

 

BTW, you do realize I was the one who brought up the definitive evidence, from Lana itself, that she was a Lord, right? Again, troll harder.

 

...you could try being less snide, you know.

 

I do agree, based on what we've seen Lana isn't on the Dark Council. The Sphere of Intelligence has Imperial Intelligence as part of it, NOT the whole of it.

 

There are no doubt other Sith that are part of the Sphere of Intelligence that performed such matters, especially after Imperial Intelligence was disbanded. The Sith Empire, built on centuries of intrigue, would have SOME people devoted to spying on the Republic. Its just that the loss of Imperial Intelligence hamstrung efforts and made the whole intelligence gathering operation more chaotic and inefficient.

 

Sith Intelligence, like Imperial Intelligence before it, is no doubt being placed under the Dark Council member heading up the Sphere of Intelligence, providing a centralized authority for the gathering and dissemination of information throughout the Empire.

 

Besides, as has been pointed out, she's not interested in titles, she's dedicated to the Empire, no matter how much a lady Jedi cozies up to her. Lana would probably politely decline being promoted to Darth. Too many people sharpening knives and wanting to plant them in her back...

[Darth_Wicked]

oh nice classy insult that is sure to make your point for you.

 

If you find "buttercup" insulting, you haven't lived long enough.

[Darth_Wicked]

...you could try being less snide, you know.

 

Last I checked, I wasn't snide, nor was I the one who went off-topic, instead of presenting a counter-argument.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Kyrrant]

Last I checked, I wasn't snide, nor was I the one who went off-topic, instead of presenting a counter-argument.

 

Mocking statements like the one I quoted definitely counts as snide.

 

You want to keep things on topic? Stay on topic, ignore any insults and don't respond to them either. Try to pretend like we're having a polite, frank discussion, not like we're arguing to see who's 'right' on a topic.

 

Anyway, enough, lets get this back on topic.

[Darth_Wicked]

Mocking statements like the one I quoted definitely counts as snide.

 

Then magicallypuzzled is NOT the only overly-sensitive individual around these parts.

 

You want to keep things on topic? Stay on topic, ignore any insults and don't respond to them either. Try to pretend like we're having a polite, frank discussion, not like we're arguing to see who's 'right' on a topic.

 

I didn't ask for your advice. No offense.

 

Plus, if I wanted to appear to be right, I wouldn't have presented the video that CLEARLY SHOWS Lana is a Sith Lord.

 

Would be counter-productive in regards to my supposed goals of world domination, as a state of being RIGHT is concerned.

 

Anyway, enough, lets get this back on topic.

 

I wasn't the one who went for that approach, nor the one who insisted on it, especially having not been targeted by said off-topic earlier.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Kyrrant]

I wasn't the one who went for that approach, nor the one who insisted on it, especially having not been targeted by said off-topic earlier.

 

I don't care who started it. You're continuing it, and you have this habit of doing so.

 

Drop it and move on, or this *****ly oversensitivity of yours, which demands that every insult be returned in kind, will be all that people see of you.

 

In any case.

 

It feels like that Vowron's probably on the bottom tier of the power structure, given how much he gets bullied around in the Warrior story... but that might be common for the Spheres that are less "KILL ALL THINGS AND DESTORY THEM AND LAY RUIN TO ALL THAT STAND IN OUR WAY".

 

Areas that grow in power based on connections, manpower, organization or just power in things and not you, like Logistics, Justice (hah!), Technology and Biotic Science probably groom leaders that aren't a massive threat by themselves, but whose power bases are massive things.

 

...but that gets into a tricky area regarding defining what 'power' is...

[Darth_Wicked]

I don't care who started it. You're continuing it, and you have this habit of doing so.

 

Not the only one continuing it would seem.

 

Drop it and move on, or this *****ly oversensitivity of yours, which demands that every insult be returned in kind, will be all that people see of you.

 

People are entitled to see whatever they want to see. Doesn't make it true though.

 

Also...

Stay on topic.

You should take your own advice.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Kyrrant]

Not the only one continuing it would seem.

 

People are entitled to see whatever they want to see. Doesn't make it true though.

 

Also...

 

You should take your own advice.

 

It feels like that Vowron's probably on the bottom tier of the power structure, given how much he gets bullied around in the Warrior story... but that might be common for the Spheres that are less "KILL ALL THINGS AND DESTORY THEM AND LAY RUIN TO ALL THAT STAND IN OUR WAY".

 

Areas that grow in power based on connections, manpower, organization or just power in things and not you, like Logistics, Justice (hah!), Technology and Biotic Science probably groom leaders that aren't a massive threat by themselves, but whose power bases are massive things.

 

...but that gets into a tricky area regarding defining what 'power' is...

[magicallypuzzled]

I imagine it goes in order of darth marr, darth mortis, darth vowrawn, darth ravage, darth rictus, darth nox, darth acina,darth aruk, and who ever else has replaced the ones that died. Edited January 16, 2015 by magicallypuzzled

[Kyrrant]

I imagine it goes in order of darth marr, darth mortis, darth vowrawn, darth ravage, darth rictus, darth nox, darth acina,darth aruk, and who ever else has replaced the ones that died.

 

Again, though, Vowrawn's a giant pu- kitten for his whole time in the Warrior story. This fits his station as the lead of Logistics, a sphere entirely about building up power bases on mundane soldiers, supply lines, factories, favors owed, Sith reliant on you...

 

Given that Wrath needs to save Vowrawn, and people argue about who's stronger, Nox or Wrath, I think its fair to say that Vowrawn's only powerful through his connections and organization, and could be outfought by half the Darths in the empire if forced into a 1v1.

[magicallypuzzled]

he's being attacked by baras because he's a threat and really isn't ever bullied I am not sure at all where you are coming from. Edited January 16, 2015 by magicallypuzzled

[Darth_Wicked]

Again, though, Vowrawn's a giant pu- kitten for his whole time in the Warrior story. This fits his station as the lead of Logistics, a sphere entirely about building up power bases on mundane soldiers, supply lines, factories, favors owed, Sith reliant on you...

 

Given that Wrath needs to save Vowrawn, and people argue about who's stronger, Nox or Wrath, I think its fair to say that Vowrawn's only powerful through his connections and organization, and could be outfought by half the Darths in the empire if forced into a 1v1.

 

I kinda agree with magicallypuzzled on that one.

 

In the Annihilation novel, Vowrawn is even seen poking fun at Marr repeatedly, absent any fear of potential reprisals and what not. I also remember Marr commenting on Rictus assigning Hargrev for Oricon, which apparently irked Marr, seeing the latter saw him as nothing more than a sadist and a braggart.

 

Regardless, it's one of the game's major flaws IMO: the inner-workings of the Dark Council, post-Vanilla, have largely been ignored or unaddressed, aside from the struggle between Marr and other Council members during the Annihilation novel.

 

In other words, I get the feeling the game looses itself trying to convey the thought that Marr is the de facto ruler of the Empire, forcibly at times.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Rhyltran]

I kinda agree with magicallypuzzled on that one.

 

In the Annihilation novel, Vowrawn is even seen poking fun at Marr repeatedly, absent any fear of potential reprisals and what not. I also remember Marr commenting on Rictus assigning Hargrev for Oricon, which apparently irked Marr, seeing the latter saw him as nothing more than a sadist and a braggart.

 

Regardless, it's one of the game's major flaws IMO: the inner-workings of the Dark Council, post-Vanilla, have largely been ignored or unaddressed, aside from the struggle between Marr and other Council members during the Annihilation novel.

 

In other words, I get the feeling the game looses itself trying to convey the thought that Marr is the de facto ruler of the Empire, forcibly at times.

 

I do agree with you here. I think this could have all been avoided had they handled Malgus better.

[Darth_Wicked]

I do agree with you here. I think this could have all been avoided had they handled Malgus better.

 

PLOT DA TWIST!

 

Also...

During the Sith Inquisitor class story mission on Rishi, the player character, while communicating with Moff Pyron, has some choices to make, which may or may NOT benefit the Empire.

 

While our choices are not exactly clear cut,

, yet once again doing what is right by the Empire, absent any shades of gray. It goes opposite to what happened during Makeb, where he had to sacrifice a bulk(?) of his legions to buy time for that operation, as seen

 

In other words, not only the game tries to convey his ultimate leadership status, but makes him seem akin to a holy figure, who can do no wrong.

 

Maybe it will change further down the road, with the Emperor back and what not but again, a bit too forced.

^^ SPOILERS FOR SOR, PLUS INQUISITOR CLASS STORY MISSION.

 

Also, Makeb but then again, I assume everyone played it by now.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Kyrrant]

Personal power is different from one's power base.

 

The reason I rank Vowrawn so lowly is that you have to save him twice, he has to go into hiding to avoid being assassinated and at no point actually... does anything, certainly never shows his power or wins any fights.

 

To me, his power is his connections, his minions and the fact that the military engine of the Empire would crumble without him. His personal ability to win a fight, 1v1, seems extremely limited, given the number of times, again, that he needs to be saved from Baras' assassins.

 

As for Vowrawn snarking at Marr... so? Marr's a pretty chill dude for a Sith Lord. He tends to handle backtalk from other Imperials pretty much in a mix of "Actually, that's kinda funny" and "Sorry, why should I care what you think?". That's why we love him so...

 

...I do agree that the politics of both councils has gotten shifted to the back burner. I think that's mainly a result of the need to streamline the content into (at best) Imperial and Republic tracts. Having a single face (...so to speak) for each side's actions is useful for mission briefing purposes.

 

It is sad we're likely not going to see much in the way of Dark Council politics, but budget IS going to be a concern. Still, they could develop a second Dark Council member (Ravage, maybe?) as Marr's rival, like how Satele has Saresh as a rival...

[Darth_Wicked]

The reason I rank Vowrawn so lowly is that you have to save him twice, he has to go into hiding to avoid being assassinated and at no point actually... does anything, certainly never shows his power or wins any fights.

 

You have to fight Nomen Karr on Hutta, to Karr's disappointment; same with Rathari on Nar Shaddaa.

 

It doesn't mean Baras couldn't defeat either one, assuming he'd decide to face them head-on.

 

To me, his power is his connections, his minions and the fact that the military engine of the Empire would crumble without him. His personal ability to win a fight, 1v1, seems extremely limited, given the number of times, again, that he needs to be saved from Baras' assassins.

 

Again, I do not know that. The fact that Vowrawn keeps you on guessing, without letting you know what he's capable of is his greatest strength in the end.

 

Baras was pretty much a fat*ss for the most part, yet in the end, I wouldn't say he was pushover.

 

The very fact Vowrawn got his wish -- Baras's failure in his bid for power -- without ever igniting a lightsaber or using something else pertaining the Force, outside the release of the Entity, is by itself surely impressive.

 

As for Vowrawn snarking at Marr... so? Marr's a pretty chill dude for a Sith Lord. He tends to handle backtalk from other Imperials pretty much in a mix of "Actually, that's kinda funny" and "Sorry, why should I care what you think?". That's why we love him so...

 

It speaks to the influence he commands, plus his position in the Dark Council. The others oppose Marr and yet, Vowrawn is the ONLY one who openly mocks him.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darkelefantos]

You have to fight Nomen Karr on Hutta, to Karr's disappointment; same with Rathari on Nar Shaddaa.

 

It doesn't mean Baras couldn't defeat either one, assuming he'd decide to face them head-on.

There's a difference to sending a proxy to do your job and forfeiting your life immediately despite being surrounded by loyal bodyguards, not even trying to get away.

 

Personally, I feel him mocking Marr actually means nothing in particular. He openly mocked Baras, but would he have dared picking a fight with the man? Considering the voice and attitude, sometimes I just liken Vowrawn to hedonism bot.

 

EDIT: Fight as in battle, a literal fight.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darkelefantos

[Darth_Wicked]

There's a difference to sending a proxy to do your job and forfeiting your life immediately despite being surrounded by loyal bodyguards, not even trying to get away.

 

It guess it speaks volumes to his ability to analyze things around him successfully.

 

Vowrawn had played the game and at that point, recognizing the SW's worth, conceded defeat; I guess it is inferred he and his followers were no match for it.

 

Baras' thought otherwise and we all know how that ended.

 

Personally, I feel him mocking Marr actually means nothing in particular. He openly mocked Baras, but would he have dared picking a fight with the man?

 

He had no need to, truth be told. He had someone entrusted with that task already, by the Emperor himself.

 

Considering the voice and attitude, sometimes I just liken Vowrawn to hedonism bot.

 

Judging from Rishi, I still think he's a bit more proactive than that.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darkelefantos]

If he hadn't conveniently gotten the Wrath to help him - what would he have done? If he doesn't trust himself and his apprentices to defeat the Wrath, what will he do to Baras? Lure him into a cookie trap? Let's face it, without the Wrath helping him, he will never get Baras to fail. He got lucky, no matter how good the plan was or wasn't.

 

And his "display" against Draahg would best be described as shameful.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darkelefantos

[Darth_Wicked]

If he hadn't conveniently gotten the Wrath to help him - what would he have done? If he doesn't trust himself and his apprentices to defeat the Wrath, what will he do to Baras? Lure him into a cookie trap? Let's face it, without the Wrath helping him, he will never get Baras to fail. He got lucky, no matter how good the plan was or wasn't.

 

As I said earlier already, threat assessment; Vowrawn's seems to trump Baras on that front.

 

Regardless, we never got to see both facing each other, head-on. Hence, we can only speculate; still, seeing that Vowrawn and his ability to keep one guessing is part of his charm, I'm glad it went down that way.

 

And his "display" against Draahg would best be described as shameful.

 

He was caught unaware and immediately placed into an effect similar to stasis.

 

Plus, Draahg was a servant to Baras.

 

In other words, if he was able to enslave a supposedly eons-old Entity, it doesn't seem that unlikely he'd be able to do that, especially take into account -- yet again -- the surprise element.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darkelefantos]

As I said earlier already, threat assessment; Vowrawn's seems to trump Baras on that front.

I disagree. The only threat Baras didn't accurately assess was his own apprentice. He was right about Karr and Jaesa, right about Xerender/Wyelett, he was right thinking his apprentices could take Vengean together. He couldn't fathom the power of his apprentice - for which I wouldn't fault him, even Quinn, who's much closer to the Wrath, didn't expect that's-my-secret-Cap-I'm-always-angry-mode during his ambush.

 

As much as I love Vowrawn and respect his cunning and courage, I wouldn't ask the guy to have my back in a battle. Much rather would have Marr in that position (whose power btw is stated to be 2nd to none in the game's codex, which I would assume refers to the Dark Council). I mean, Marr is a dying man, let's face it, but he doesn't seem nearly as frail as Vowrawn.

 

I mean, I could be wrong. The submission could have been a fake, he might have killed the Wrath had Baras' assassin not shown himself to prove the Wrath was there in good faith. Maybe Vowrawn is super powerful and has tricks you've never dreamed of (what do you got?) and you can't take him (even if you're Claw), but untill proven wrong, I will see him as frail in combat, but a major influence in Imperial politics.

[Darth_Wicked]

I disagree. The only threat Baras didn't accurately assess was his own apprentice. He was right about Karr and Jaesa, right about Xerender/Wyelett, he was right thinking his apprentices could take Vengean together. He couldn't fathom the power of his apprentice - for which I wouldn't fault him, even Quinn, who's much closer to the Wrath, didn't expect that's-my-secret-Cap-I'm-always-angry-mode during his ambush.

 

I meant in regards to the Wrath ONLY.

 

In all other aspects, Baras seems to have gotten it right, even though I think it is HEAVILY implied it wasn't his threat assessment that was so great, but rather the insights he managed to obtain from the Entity.

 

In fact, when asked,

 

As much as I love Vowrawn and respect his cunning and courage, I wouldn't ask the guy to have my back in a battle. Much rather would have Marr in that position (whose power btw is stated to be 2nd to none in the game's codex, which I would assume refers to the Dark Council). I mean, Marr is a dying man, let's face it, but he doesn't seem nearly as frail as Vowrawn.

 

I believe you are referring to Darth Jadus, not Darth Marr.

 

Jadus is the one who is 2nd only to the Emperor, according to Watcher Two.

 

I mean, I could be wrong. The submission could have been a fake, he might have killed the Wrath had Baras' assassin not shown himself to prove the Wrath was there in good faith.

 

I believe we once discussed that.

 

Regardless,

, I guess his surrender was likely sincere. We can never be ENTIRELY sure though.

 

Maybe Vowrawn is super powerful and has tricks you've never dreamed of (what do you got?) and you can't take him (even if you're Claw), but untill proven wrong, I will see him as frail in combat, but a major influence in Imperial politics.

 

Until then, he'll keep doing what he does best: keep us on guessing.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darkelefantos]

I believe you are referring to Darth Jadus, not Darth Marr.

When I say Darth Marr's codex entry, I do mean Darth Marr's codex entry:

 

"With his humanity long forgotten and his face unseen, Marr's inner thoughts are impossible to determine. But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none."

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darkelefantos

[Darth_Wicked]

When I say Darth Marr's codex entry, I do mean Darth Marr's codex entry:

 

"With his humanity long forgotten and his face unseen, Marr's inner thoughts are impossible to determine. But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none."

 

Missed the codex entry part.

[dcaleb]

I believe you are referring to Darth Jadus, not Darth Marr.

 

Jadus is the one who is 2nd only to the Emperor, according to Watcher Two.

 

Yet he couldn't even kill a force blind grunt who hadn't even cleared chapter 1 yet despite every other Dark Council member (besides his chump daughter) being fought near the end of chapter 3 at the earliest.. Nothing else in the game ever backs up what is said by his subordinates, they just didn't know what they were talking about.