Fix the formatting of GTN prices

[kleinfour]

Lots of threads going on various solutions to and complaints about the GTN scammers problem., but I think just fixing the formatting will eliminate most of the problem.

 

The unit price column on the GTN makes some poor choices in presenting the values. The data is presented left justified and with an irregular placement of the decimal point. Since comma and decimal point are easy to confuse in this font, these UI choices are exploited by a few scammers to trick people. For example the following is a list of unit prices that one could see on the GTN:

 

$666,667

$666.75

 

Money values should not be presented this way. For example, look at a bank statement, or even what happens in Excel or Libre office when you designate a column as money. This kind of data should always be presented with place values aligned because users will intuitively expect this.

 

$666,667.00

___ $666.75

 

(underscores would be spaces but forum will eat them)

 

The same change should apply to total price as well, though the presence of a fractional part makes the issue particularly severe in the unit price column. This simple change would eliminate the ability of scammers to exploit the unit price to trick people.

 

Originally posted some of this on customer service but it really belongs here.

[Ratajack]

Lots of threads going on various solutions to and complaints about the GTN scammers problem., but I think just fixing the formatting will eliminate most of the problem.

 

The unit price column on the GTN makes some poor choices in presenting the values. The data is presented left justified and with an irregular placement of the decimal point. Since comma and decimal point are easy to confuse in this font, these UI choices are exploited by a few scammers to trick people. For example the following is a list of unit prices that one could see on the GTN:

 

$666,667

$666.75

 

Money values should not be presented this way. For example, look at a bank statement, or even what happens in Excel or Libre office when you designate a column as money. This kind of data should always be presented with place values aligned because users will intuitively expect this.

 

$666,667.00

___ $666.75

 

(underscores would be spaces but forum will eat them)

 

The same change should apply to total price as well, though the presence of a fractional part makes the issue particularly severe in the unit price column. This simple change would eliminate the ability of scammers to exploit the unit price to trick people.

 

Originally posted some of this on customer service but it really belongs here.

 

<sarcasm on> Yes, because counting to THREE is so difficult. <sarcasm off>

 

I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that being able to count to three and tell the difference between THREE characters after a COMMA and TWO characters after a DECIMAL POINT puts me in the minority.

[MagikFingerz]

This is the best (or rather: only decent) suggestion for this "problem" I've seen so far.

 

And it helps that the OP isn't butthurt about losing credits and blaming others for his mistake. Still calls it a scam though, which it isn't (semantics, I know, but it irks me).

 

I still stand by that paying attention is the easiest and most effective solution to this "problem".

[LyraineAlei]

This is the best (or rather: only decent) suggestion for this "problem" I've seen so far.

 

And it helps that the OP isn't butthurt about losing credits and blaming others for his mistake. Still calls it a scam though, which it isn't (semantics, I know, but it irks me).

 

I still stand by that paying attention is the easiest and most effective solution to this "problem".

 

I agree with you on the whole.

 

But if the formatting change would finally make these threads just die and end the Great Scam/Not A Scam Debate, then please.

[Andrellma]

So we needed another thread on this...why?

 

You posted this exact post in one of the other threads, then an hour and a half later decided to post your post from the other thread as a new thread. Were the other 8 threads not enough?

[EnkiduNineEight]

So we needed another thread on this...why?

 

You posted this exact post in one of the other threads, then an hour and a half later decided to post your post from the other thread as a new thread. Were the other 8 threads not enough?

 

Don't reply, just 1 star them all.

[TakexeNex]

Devils advocate: Why does the GTN need to post prices with a fraction (.)when all other operations including our wallet have none? If we get rid of the fractions then everything in the game works the same. Just sayin. Ive never been on the controversial ends of this debate mainly because I am slow to buy and careful but this player controlled market is not like the rest of the game dealing in whole credits all the time. Should it be?

[Silverspar]

Devils advocate: Why does the GTN need to post prices with a fraction (.)when all other operations including our wallet have none? If we get rid of the fractions then everything in the game works the same. Just sayin. Ive never been on the controversial ends of this debate mainly because I am slow to buy and careful but this player controlled market is not like the rest of the game dealing in whole credits all the time. Should it be?

 

The second number is a fraction because the first number is the whole price for all items. If someone posted a sale with multiple items then the second number lists said items at how much each of those items are worth individually. You should only pay attention to that number when you know more than one is being sold, otherwise it shouldn't even be the first thing you look at.

[Ratajack]

This is the best (or rather: only decent) suggestion for this "problem" I've seen so far.

 

And it helps that the OP isn't butthurt about losing credits and blaming others for his mistake. Still calls it a scam though, which it isn't (semantics, I know, but it irks me).

 

I still stand by that paying attention is the easiest and most effective solution to this "problem".

 

The OP isn't butthurt? He has started at least 4 or 5 threads about the same subject looking for sympathy and still claims to have been scammed, even though he ADMITS that HE made the mistake. Allow me to quote him:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=774596

 

I was 8 million

 

Lets keep a tab here hopefully someone willl isten

 

I just got scammed out of 8 mil cause of the price setting scam, since whats done its done ill like to ban those sellers that put this prices for appearing at my sellers list, how can i do this pls?

 

The list of posts goes on and on and on...

 

In not one of them does he actually take responsibility for HIS inattentiveness and HIS mistake.

[Jboath]

This is the best (or rather: only decent) suggestion for this "problem" I've seen so far.

 

And it helps that the OP isn't butthurt about losing credits and blaming others for his mistake. Still calls it a scam though, which it isn't (semantics, I know, but it irks me).

 

I still stand by that paying attention is the easiest and most effective solution to this "problem".

 

what makes it a scam(bug exploit) is that the way it gets listed at the top of searches, you have to double click listing by price to get the real lowest price to show up

[Muljo_Stpho]

So we needed another thread on this...why?

 

You posted this exact post in one of the other threads, then an hour and a half later decided to post your post from the other thread as a new thread. Were the other 8 threads not enough?

 

This exact question (minus the exact timing) could be asked of quite a few new topics on this subject. (One of them even posted his duplicate post as new topics in both suggestions and general, and then someone else felt the need to copy that guy with another new topic made to suggest his same idea.)

[MagikFingerz]

The OP isn't butthurt? He has started at least 4 or 5 threads about the same subject looking for sympathy and still claims to have been scammed, even though he ADMITS that HE made the mistake. Allow me to quote him:

 

The list of posts goes on and on and on...

 

In not one of them does he actually take responsibility for HIS inattentiveness and HIS mistake.

 

Either you somehow know that khsolo (OP of quoted threads) is the same person as kleinfour (OP of this thread), or you just weren't paying attention. Oh, the irony

[AlrikFassbauer]

In not one of them does he actually take responsibility for HIS inattentiveness and HIS mistake.

 

You do as if there was in crime cases only ONE side.

 

But there are acxtually TWO :

 

Victim + Doer.

 

You do so as if one of boith sides just doesn't exist.

 

It requires both WILL and DETERMINATION to give in a price like that which is can easily be chosen by victims.

 

BUT you blame the victims to be bloody fools because they were choosingf what they didn't want to choose.

 

But you blend out the fact that it uses fingers, a keyboard and a brain to actually TYPE IN prices like THAT.

 

"No, no, it wasn't my intention to use prices which can easily be used to accuse me of scam !" you might say.

 

But, then, please answer me that one question :

 

Why did you use THAT layout for the price in the first place ? What intention id you REALLY have ? Why did you use the numbering in exactlym this way ?

And : Why didn't you use any other way of layout for your pricing iof it is so much unimportant which actual layout the price formatting has ?

 

And ANYONE has to ask himsedlf / herself these same questions ...

[Ratajack]

Either you somehow know that khsolo (OP of quoted threads) is the same person as kleinfour (OP of this thread), or you just weren't paying attention. Oh, the irony

 

Mea Culpa. I offer my sincerest apologies to Kleinfour.

 

Yes, Magic, you got me. I was not paying enough attention and got the threads mixed up. No one is to blame for that except me.

[Ratajack]

You do as if there was in crime cases only ONE side.

 

But there are acxtually TWO :

 

Victim + Doer.

 

You do so as if one of boith sides just doesn't exist.

 

It requires both WILL and DETERMINATION to give in a price like that which is can easily be chosen by victims.

 

BUT you blame the victims to be bloody fools because they were choosingf what they didn't want to choose.

 

But you blend out the fact that it uses fingers, a keyboard and a brain to actually TYPE IN prices like THAT.

 

"No, no, it wasn't my intention to use prices which can easily be used to accuse me of scam !" you might say.

 

But, then, please answer me that one question :

 

Why did you use THAT layout for the price in the first place ? What intention id you REALLY have ? Why did you use the numbering in exactlym this way ?

And : Why didn't you use any other way of layout for your pricing iof it is so much unimportant which actual layout the price formatting has ?

 

And ANYONE has to ask himsedlf / herself these same questions ...

 

No. You have it wrong. There is NO crime with two sides here.

 

The seller lists the item for a set price which CANNOT be changed once the item is listed.

 

The BUYER sees the EXACT price and the item, as well as the seller's name.

 

The BUYER has the option to sort the listing in many ways, including by total price or by unit price from highest to lowest or lowest to highest, or by unit price from highest to lowest or lowest to highest.

 

The BUYER has the option to set a price range.

 

The BUYER chooses to click the buy button. The seller cannot force the BUYER to click that button against his will.

 

The BUYER gets a pop-up PURCHASE CONFIRMATION pop-up with the total price of the auction.

 

The BUYER chooses to click the CONFIRM PURCHASE button. The seller cannot force the BUYER to click that button against his will.

 

The BUYER gets EXACTLY what he agreed to purchase for the EXACT price he agreed to pay.

 

There is NO scam. There is ONLY ONE side which should bear the blame, IMO.

 

It seems to me that there are, however, some people who would rather play the victim and blame someone else, rather than to grow up, show some maturity and actually accept responsibility for THEIR inattentiveness and THEIR mistakes.

 

 

This is a situation in which a person buys a product and then realizes they could have gotten that product cheaper somewhere else, and nothing more, and suffers from BUYER"S remorse.

 

This is not a situation in which someone blindly walks down an alley and gets mugged, in which case there is a victim and a "criminal". This is not a situation in which someone agrees to sell one product and delivers something else, in which case there would be a victim and a "criminal".

[MagikFingerz]

Mea Culpa. I offer my sincerest apologies to Kleinfour.

 

Yes, Magic, you got me. I was not paying enough attention and got the threads mixed up. No one is to blame for that except me.

 

Understandable though, there seems to be about a dozen threads now.

 

You do as if there was in crime cases only ONE side.

 

But there are acxtually TWO :

 

Victim + Doer.

 

You do so as if one of boith sides just doesn't exist.

 

It requires both WILL and DETERMINATION to give in a price like that which is can easily be chosen by victims.

 

BUT you blame the victims to be bloody fools because they were choosingf what they didn't want to choose.

 

But you blend out the fact that it uses fingers, a keyboard and a brain to actually TYPE IN prices like THAT.

 

"No, no, it wasn't my intention to use prices which can easily be used to accuse me of scam !" you might say.

 

But, then, please answer me that one question :

 

Why did you use THAT layout for the price in the first place ? What intention id you REALLY have ? Why did you use the numbering in exactlym this way ?

And : Why didn't you use any other way of layout for your pricing iof it is so much unimportant which actual layout the price formatting has ?

 

And ANYONE has to ask himsedlf / herself these same questions ...

 

Nobody has disputed that certain sellers set prices with morally bad intentions. But the only IRL "scam" this can be compared to is some guy walking up to you on the street and saying "Give me some money" and hoping you'll do just that. Is it wrong to do that? Yes, but the "victims" WILLINGLY gave their money away (ie clicked the Buy button) with no deceit, no concealment or misrepresentation of the truth. The solution? Paying attention would be the same as telling the guy "No, I won't give you any money" and eliminate the problem completely.

Edited November 9, 2014 by MagikFingerz

[kleinfour]

Mea Culpa. I offer my sincerest apologies to Kleinfour.

 

Yes, Magic, you got me. I was not paying enough attention and got the threads mixed up. No one is to blame for that except me.

 

So if the consequences of this were that you lost all your credits or your account is banned for slander, you'd be OK with that right? You'd have no reason to complain. It was your inattentiveness after all. I mean you had to go quote posts that weren't mine (twice!) and put them in your reply, then hit submit reply. I can't bring myself to overuse CAPS to make this actually look like one of your posts, so perhaps the sarcasm will be lost.

[Ratajack]

So if the consequences of this were that you lost all your credits or your account is banned for slander, you'd be OK with that right? You'd have no reason to complain. It was your inattentiveness after all. I mean you had to go quote posts that weren't mine (twice!) and put them in your reply, then hit submit reply. I can't bring myself to overuse CAPS to make this actually look like one of your posts, so perhaps the sarcasm will be lost.

 

Sarcasm seen and noted. In answer to your questions, though:

 

Would I kick myself for making that mistake? Yes.

 

Would I accept the responsibilities for MY having made that mistake? Absolutely.

 

Would I claim that I got scammed by multiple people starting posts on the same topic? Absolutely NOT.

 

Would I attempt to blame someone else or expect BW to protect me from my own inattentiveness? Absolutely NOT.

[CloudzDeven]

So if the consequences of this were that you lost all your credits or your account is banned for slander, you'd be OK with that right? You'd have no reason to complain. It was your inattentiveness after all. I mean you had to go quote posts that weren't mine (twice!) and put them in your reply, then hit submit reply. I can't bring myself to overuse CAPS to make this actually look like one of your posts, so perhaps the sarcasm will be lost.

 

Isn't that a bit of a strawman? No one is talking about getting accounts banned or losing all your money. Also the fact that the guy you quoted admitted it was his fault and apologized is vastly different from what you've said. Ratajackr's most recent post really should be the end of this thread. Both you and khsolo effectively disregard the sorting and filtering options we already have and play the victim when it was your own inattentiveness that caused the "scam".

 

I'll answer your question though. If I was banned for slander, obviously there's no one else to blame, but myself. I posted the comments and purposefully or not I have to deal with the consequences. I'm not going to blame you or khsolo or having similar names or BW for having rules against slander. In the same way that the confirm purchase box pops up I agreed to BW's ToS for the forums.

[Silverspar]

what makes it a scam(bug exploit) is that the way it gets listed at the top of searches, you have to double click listing by price to get the real lowest price to show up

 

Uh, no, it doesn't. It just requires people to pay attention.

[Borderlad]

Lots of threads going on various solutions to and complaints about the GTN scammers problem., but I think just fixing the formatting will eliminate most of the problem.

 

The unit price column on the GTN makes some poor choices in presenting the values. The data is presented left justified and with an irregular placement of the decimal point. Since comma and decimal point are easy to confuse in this font, these UI choices are exploited by a few scammers to trick people.

..........

 

This is the best suggestion I have seen, regarding this issue.

 

Spreadsheets, printed accounting ledgers, finance/banking/accounting practices, and math & the sciences all observe the standard of showing columns of numbers aligned on the decimal, not left-side aligning. The reason is plain, simple, and long-proven: it improves clarity, which reduces errors.

 

Instead of telling each other to just pay attention or learn to count to three, they use a format that avoids causing this confusion in the first place. Since we have seen that the current formatting in the GTN is causing confusion, SWTOR should also adopt the centuries-established best practice.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Borderlad

[kleinfour]

Ratajack's posting is not a good analogy in many ways. Nobody was trying to trick him into misattributing those quotes, and he suffered no harm from his mistake other than the embarrassment of being seen making a careless mistake while raging about how people should be more careful. I couldn't resist having a laugh, but that is not meant to be a meaningful comparison.

 

My post is about the flaw in the UI of the GTN prices, and the way that flaw facilitates some unscrupulous people in tricking others who are purchasing things in a rush. The suggested change is trivial to make and clearly superior. This kind of "how do we present numbers/money" stuff is intro level UI design.

[CloudzDeven]

Ratajack's posting is not a good analogy in many ways. Nobody was trying to trick him into misattributing those quotes, and he suffered no harm from his mistake other than the embarrassment of being seen making a careless mistake while raging about how people should be more careful. I couldn't resist having a laugh, but that is not meant to be a meaningful comparison.

 

My post is about the flaw in the UI of the GTN prices, and the way that flaw facilitates some unscrupulous people in tricking others who are purchasing things in a rush. The suggested change is trivial to make and clearly superior. This kind of "how do we present numbers/money" stuff is intro level UI design.

 

So why can't you simply filter the prices or sort by lowest price? I guess my confusion is, given the tools we already have, how are they not effective? I just don't see how the current filter options couldn't prevent someone purchasing an item for much more than they thought. I get why the UI change would be a good addition, but is it really needed? Why take the time to improve something when the whole issue can be resolved with setting a max price or sorting by lowest price?

 

If you're buying mats and don't want to pay more than 666.75 credits for them why not just put the max price to 666.75 in the filter? That generally solves not only sorting issues (since it drastically reduces the number of products on the page), but people overcharging as well. You won't see the price with 666,667.00 because it only shows up to 666.75.

 

Unless I missed a post you haven't really explained why the current options don't do the job they're supposed to.

Edited November 10, 2014 by CloudzDeven

[Ratajack]

So why can't you simply filter the prices or sort by lowest price? I guess my confusion is, given the tools we already have, how are they not effective? I just don't see how the current filter options couldn't prevent someone purchasing an item for much more than they thought. I get why the UI change would be a good addition, but is it really needed? Why take the time to improve something when the whole issue can be resolved with setting a max price or sorting by lowest price?

 

If you're buying mats and don't want to pay more than 666.75 credits for them why not just put the max price to 666.75 in the filter? That generally solves not only sorting issues (since it drastically reduces the number of products on the page), but people overcharging as well. You won't see the price with 666,667.00 because it only shows up to 666.75.

 

Unless I missed a post you haven't really explained why the current options don't do the job they're supposed to.

 

The current options DO what they are supposed to do, provided people use them. People just don't use them, and then want to blame others when they get burned. THAT is the real problem, not formatting of numbers.

 

It seems that rather than address the REAL problem, some would prefer that BW enable players to continue not using the tools available while "holding their hands and protecting them from that big, bad, GTN bully".

[Silverspar]

This is the best suggestion I have seen, regarding this issue.

 

Spreadsheets, printed accounting ledgers, finance/banking/accounting practices, and math & the sciences all observe the standard of showing columns of numbers aligned on the decimal, not left-side aligning. The reason is plain, simple, and long-proven: it improves clarity, which reduces errors.

 

Instead of telling each other to just pay attention or learn to count to three, they use a format that avoids causing this confusion in the first place. Since we have seen that the current formatting in the GTN is causing confusion, SWTOR should also adopt the centuries-established best practice.

 

And refusing to accept responsibility for ones actions doesn't help the matter either. The current formatting is not causing confusion, at all. It's people refusing to accept responsibility for their own actions, AKA self-entitlement issues when they make mistake and decide that other issues are at fault instead of their own.