The Confirmed 3.0 Changes thread

[Mularky]

DREAD COUNCIL

 

Plasmatech. Its phase 2 DPS capabilities would be a lot better for beating the DPS check, because its slightly more AoE focused, and it can multi-dot to get even more out. If they force me to kite Raptus though I might go back on that and go Tactics, though both specs will be able to outrun him anyway, and Plasmatech can just DoT him up and spam fire pulse/ion pulse/high impact bolt, and shockstrike him when he tries to send me flying.

 

Overall 50/50 split on dread ops between the 2 specs.

 

Wouldn't AP(Tactics) work on council too? With being able to attack enemies in your 270 degree POV now and 15 meter Mag Blast. And even for phase 2 you still have 50% damage boost to Explosive Dart(Sticky Grenade)and 10% boost to DFA(MV) and finally flamethrower. Personally I would run AP for it mobility but thats just me. AP might be pretty close in the fight with its numbers in comparison to Pyrotech. Just my thoughts.

[TACeMossie]

Wouldn't AP(Tactics) work on council too? With being able to attack enemies in your 270 degree POV now and 15 meter Mag Blast. And even for phase 2 you still have 50% damage boost to Explosive Dart(Sticky Grenade)and 10% boost to DFA(MV) and finally flamethrower. Personally I would run AP for it mobility but thats just me. AP might be pretty close in the fight with its numbers in comparison to Pyrotech. Just my thoughts.

 

As I said, its going to come close. You need at least 4k sustained in phase 2, and its not going to be any easier in 3.0 because of the DPS drops going all around. I also found its painful to get Styrak + Brontes on each other all the time anyway, so multi-dotting is superior to just having more AoE capabilities. Thankfully, Plasmatech has both.

[Mularky]

As I said, its going to come close. You need at least 4k sustained in phase 2, and its not going to be any easier in 3.0 because of the DPS drops going all around. I also found its painful to get Styrak + Brontes on each other all the time anyway, so multi-dotting is superior to just having more AoE capabilities. Thankfully, Plasmatech has both.

 

Technical Power and I don't multi dot for the fight and it usually works. We just work with the Flamthrower and Death From Above. But like you said it is hard to say.

[TACeMossie]

Technical Power and I don't multi dot for the fight and it usually works. We just work with the Flamthrower and Death From Above. But like you said it is hard to say.

 

To be fair, on live, Pyro can't multi-dot. Not enough ammo or usable cooldowns to do so right now. Unless you want to risk RNG that is.

 

3.0 Pyro has no cooldowns on either DoT (so you can hit them all with Scorch + Incendiary Missile), has flame sweep free most of the time (multi-dotting combustible gas cylinder), and actually has the resources to do the multi-dotting, so there is that going for it.

 

But then again, 3.0 AP, as you said, has the stronger DFA, as well as the stronger explosive dart, and can do a nearly 100% AoE rotation (especially if you have another person putting the armor debuff up so you dont have to bother with stockstrike), where depending on the number of targets, you can all but wipe out any single target damage from your rotation (well, other than rail shots ) thanks to RS resets from explosive dart + flame sweep

 

I think this will be a case of personal preference. In fact, I think its going to end up with all fights are going to be personal preference, with 1-2 exceptions (e.g. fights where you absolutely must have burst or mobility, or fights where the dps check is insane)

Edited November 10, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Vember]

As for Tactics becoming Plasmatech. The issue with Tactics was it was too bursty and AoE focused to receive a proper sustained buff without becoming overpowered. As such, they moved a bunch of DoTs into it (making it work similarly to the old hybrid spec, with 1-2 differences such as automatic resource generation, no free stockstrike proc, and the free high impact bolt being replaced with free ion pulses. And an auto-crit for high impact bolt), toned down the AoE (and then gave it right back by making Explosive Surge interchangable with Ion Pulse ), and moved a bit of the burst (3x shoulder cannon missiles) out of it. The end result is the spec is weaker in burst + AoE, but is now a very powerful sustained spec, and when you aren't going to need to be constantly moving it will be incredibly powerful.

 

 

That's all well and good, but why did they have to wreck the other spec to do it? Assault Spec was just fine the way it was: High mobility with DoT and good sustain. Now you can play the lackluster DD tree and keep your mobility, or stay with the DoT tree and lose all of your mobility.

 

Did anyone get any input on this before the Devs decided on these changes? I'm assuming that since all this was on their twitch stream, that this is what we're going live wtih.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Vember

[Khantalas]

As said early in the stream, all the specs are subject to the possibility of being changed in final release. They likely won't be, but it doesn't mean they can't.

[DarthOvertone]

As said early in the stream, all the specs are subject to the possibility of being changed in final release. They likely won't be, but it doesn't mean they can't.

 

I have never seen BW make a dramatic change like you are suggesting within a 30-day window for a launch. The ACs they discussed on the Stream will function and perform the way they described. There will be no major changes.

 

 

That's all well and good, but why did they have to wreck the other spec to do it? Assault Spec was just fine the way it was: High mobility with DoT and good sustain. Now you can play the lackluster DD tree and keep your mobility, or stay with the DoT tree and lose all of your mobility.

 

I share your skepticism, which is why I'm just waiting to see how the classes play live. On paper, the changes look very lackluster, but it's highly possible there is a solid payoff in the actual gameplay. We'll see...

[Aetideus]

Another thing to note is health is going up, damage is coming down a little, and a few tank-killers are being redone (e.g. Tactics is going to be what assault used to be, and a ton of Assault's damage came from Elemental damage, which ignores mitigation. Tactics is going to have to deal with Shield + Armor Rating on pretty much everything, so, its a worse tank killer now), so mitigation might start being worth it in PvP, and if not, tanks will at least be a lot better off because the gap between Tank DPS and DPS DPS wont be so big anymore.

 

Apart form the +45% speed it is a huge nerf for PvP imo.

Plasmatech loses the burst single attacks combined with elemental dmg.

AP gets Particle accelerator but the single attacks are kin/en so they can be shielded / def...crap

Edited November 10, 2014 by Aetideus

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Apart form the +45% speed it is a huge nerf for PvP imo.

Plasmatech loses the burst single attacks combined with elemental dmg.

AP gets Particle accelerator but the single attacks are kin/en so they can be shielded / def...crap

 

I think that, for Sin tanks, who dont focus much on Defence may be the ones crippled by the new AP, that and with Trauma debuff getting thrown around alot more Sin Tanks are definately going to be less useful in PvP though we havent seen their moveset yet. Pyrotech seems to be, really awesome! Auto Crit + 30% Surge on Rail Shot = 10k+ Rail Shots (thank christ!) SHF (Superheated Flamethrower) will be awesome, and Immolate is FINALLY a Pyrotech Skill! and Scorch seems pretty neat, but it's low damage worries me... and more Elemental Damage when in Execute phase is going to be sickly awesome!

[TACeMossie]

I think that, for Sin tanks, who dont focus much on Defence may be the ones crippled by the new AP, that and with Trauma debuff getting thrown around alot more Sin Tanks are definately going to be less useful in PvP though we havent seen their moveset yet. Pyrotech seems to be, really awesome! Auto Crit + 30% Surge on Rail Shot = 10k+ Rail Shots (thank christ!) SHF (Superheated Flamethrower) will be awesome, and Immolate is FINALLY a Pyrotech Skill! and Scorch seems pretty neat, but it's low damage worries me... and more Elemental Damage when in Execute phase is going to be sickly awesome!

 

Sorry, Pyro only has surge on immolate, flamethrower and flaming fist. You do get 60% armor pen though (up from 45%)

[Aetideus]

I think that, for Sin tanks, who dont focus much on Defence may be the ones crippled by the new AP, that and with Trauma debuff getting thrown around alot more Sin Tanks are definately going to be less useful in PvP though we havent seen their moveset yet. Pyrotech seems to be, really awesome! Auto Crit + 30% Surge on Rail Shot = 10k+ Rail Shots (thank christ!) SHF (Superheated Flamethrower) will be awesome, and Immolate is FINALLY a Pyrotech Skill! and Scorch seems pretty neat, but it's low damage worries me... and more Elemental Damage when in Execute phase is going to be sickly awesome!

 

No Sin set yet. The Pyrotech rotation is like old AP eg. no burst but sustained dps. Its a nerf to Pyro on single target. Kin/en attacks of AP are not good enough. No way against tank.

[Aetideus]

Sorry, Pyro only has surge on immolate, flamethrower and flaming fist. You do get 60% armor pen though (up from 45%)

 

They nerfed any burst of the class apart from the flamethrower. And rail shot can be def.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Aetideus

[Altheran]

Lately, there's something about the DPS disciplines that started to bother me : the learning order of skills.

 

If I recall correctly, they said they wanted disciplines to have they mechanics ready early on, right ?

And so far, on Sorcerers, Commandos, and even Sniper (the general change stream), it seemed that way, right ?

(The more it has gameplay consequences like Demolition Round, Creeping Terror, Cull, the earlier it's learned. And alternatively, the least game changing it is, like Demolish, Mag Bolt, the later it's learned)

 

So why on Powertech and Vanguard, skills like Energy Blast and (to a lesser extent) Scorch, are "last skills" while affecting gameplay, meanwhile skills like Mag Blast and Flaming Fist which are only upgrades of existing skills are early skills ?

 

It may look nitpicky, but somehow, it seems illogic to me.

[TACeMossie]

Lately, there's something about the DPS disciplines that started to bother me : the learning order of skills.

 

If I recall correctly, they said they wanted disciplines to have they mechanics ready early on, right ?

And so far, on Sorcerers, Commandos, and even Sniper (the general change stream), it seemed that way, right ?

(The more it has gameplay consequences like Demolition Round, Creeping Terror, Cull, the earlier it's learned. And alternatively, the least game changing it is, like Demolish, Mag Bolt, the later it's learned)

 

So why on Powertech and Vanguard, skills like Energy Blast and (to a lesser extent) Scorch, are "last skills" while affecting gameplay, meanwhile skills like Mag Blast and Flaming Fist which are only upgrades of existing skills are early skills ?

 

It may look nitpicky, but somehow, it seems illogic to me.

 

For AP:

 

Mag Blast is required for the PPA proc - PPA isn't working with Flame Burst. The 3.0 AP Rotation will be focused on getting the PPA proc, with the remaining cooldowns having you juggle your powerful abilities for max damage.

 

For Pyrotech, the rotation will be focusing on simply getting the Superheated Flamethrower used on cooldown, and anything else is just there for MOAR damage. Well, I guess fire pulse is necessary for resource management, and IR can be helpful too... but I digress.

 

In both cases, all the important stuff is learned by level 32. Well, superheated flamethrower is level 40, but whatever, you'll still have the basic rotation down well before that.

[RamalX]

I've been searching but haven't found anything on the overwhelmed debuff from plasma barrage/ flame barrage. Does anyone know how long it will last? Edited November 11, 2014 by RamalX

[TACeMossie]

I've been searching but haven't found anything on the overwhelmed debuff from plasma barrage/ flame barrage. Does anyone know how long it will last?

 

The tooltip stated 45 seconds, I just forgot to put a note in the OP since your using flamethrower every 15 seconds anyway.

[RamalX]

Thank you must have missed it.

[Zoom_VI]

hehe crap changes for DPS. no survivability for the burst spec now ... or so it seems?

 

All the subtle changes to the names of the moves are just smoke and mirrors. Actually haven't done anything. AP will still get trained as it has no sustained survivability like pyro will continue to have regardless of burst potential. #glasscannon

 

Wat

 

The only defensive talent Pyro has now is Automated defensives. tactics now has the 30% AoE and CC DR, Energy Rebounder, and has picked up sonic rebounder which is basically old degauss.

 

Besides the PT class will always be a glass cannon, you cannot justify loading a class with as much offensive potency that the powertech has, and then giving it great defensive skills.

[Zoom_VI]

I guess I just don't understand why they took a highly mobile spec and gated it behind a crappy cone aoe that requires you to be standing still to cast.

 

Tactics now plays like old pyro. New Pyro (Plasmatech) now plays like old Tactics/AP

[xxSHOONYxx]

Wat

 

The only defensive talent Pyro has now is Automated defensives. tactics now has the 30% AoE and CC DR, Energy Rebounder, and has picked up sonic rebounder which is basically old degauss.

 

Besides the PT class will always be a glass cannon, you cannot justify loading a class with as much offensive potency that the powertech has, and then giving it great defensive skills.

 

No excuse, I need to be able to pull 6k dps and have all the DCDs of a juggernaut plus the PT passives

[xxSHOONYxx]

On a side note, I can't wait to see what we can pull on Nefra with Into the fray, Pyro shield, AND reflective armor

[Altheran]

For AP:

 

Mag Blast is required for the PPA proc - PPA isn't working with Flame Burst. The 3.0 AP Rotation will be focused on getting the PPA proc, with the remaining cooldowns having you juggle your powerful abilities for max damage.

 

For Pyrotech, the rotation will be focusing on simply getting the Superheated Flamethrower used on cooldown, and anything else is just there for MOAR damage. Well, I guess fire pulse is necessary for resource management, and IR can be helpful too... but I digress.

 

In both cases, all the important stuff is learned by level 32. Well, superheated flamethrower is level 40, but whatever, you'll still have the basic rotation down well before that.

 

But you know, here, the need for Mag Blast is artificial. Technically, Mag Blast brings nothing but more damage until they put talents that work only with Mag Blast and not Flame Burst. Actually, when you learn it, gameplay does not change. No mechanics improvement.

 

That's what catches my attention... that's contracting the concept they said they'd be following : mechanisms and functionality first.

 

They could have inverted Mag Blast and Energy Blast and made the talents compatible with Flame Burst, that it would have been more consistent with what they said, and how other disciplines are built so far (see Madness and Crushing Darkness/Demolish for example).

It's just that I do not get why it didn't turn out this way.

 

As for Pyro, it's only slightly different.

You're right that almost everything end only being "more damage"

As a result, any importance order between Flaming Fist, Incendiary Missile and Scorch is not clear... It's possible that Scorch is too marginal to be seen as "important enough" to relegate Flaming Fist as a last skill.

Yet, can we say that being the first skill really brings enough to be considered "first need" ? I don't think so.

Personally, I consider that the length and range of Incendiary Missile to be more important from functional stand point than either Scorch or Flaming Fist.

 

Put it simply, I find the order questionable.

 

Personally, I think the order while prioritizing mechanics should be :

 

- Gut (must be able to use Rail Shot)

- Energy Blast (synergy with Rail Shot)

- Thermal detonator (even if very little, bring gameplay depth)

- Mag Blast (only more damage)

 

And

 

- Incendiary Missile (best opener, range plus long duration DoT)

- Immolate (Heat management)

- Scorch (help switches after target death)

- Flaming Fist (only more damage)

 

Any order that do not put Mag Blast/Flaming Fist last, would put something else than "more damage" in last improvement, meaning that functionality would not have been properly prioritized.

 

But maybe they prioritize catering the two disciplines to Energy/Kinetic and Elemental over functionality, explaining why these abilities are learned early and why the base abilities are quickly excluded from talents... But in my opinion, that's the last thing they should care about, as long as the replacement ends being better than the replaced one.

 

 

But whatever, it's not that important anyway...

Edited November 12, 2014 by Altheran

[Aienir]

Just to point out to the above poster, in 3.0, for Advanced Prototype/Tactics you won't need Retractable Blade/Gut's bleed on a target anymore to use Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt. The new Prototype Rail/High Friction Bolts has an additional affect that allows you to fire Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt at targets that aren't incapacitated or suffering from periodic affects.

[DarthSpekulatius]

Just to point out to the above poster, in 3.0, for Advanced Prototype/Tactics you won't need Retractable Blade/Gut's bleed on a target anymore to use Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt. The new Prototype Rail/High Friction Bolts has an additional affect that allows you to fire Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt at targets that aren't incapacitated or suffering from periodic affects.

 

(Edit: why I quoted you was to point out that Gut is still one of your most important Abilities)

 

it's similar for Mando heals they get the 8 Person heal at 26 and the 4 Person heal at 57

you'll need the 8 person heal no sooner then 50 the 4 person heal would be way better for anything below

(even in warzones the higher range trumps being able to heal 8ppl that were foolish enough to stack up so they can be AOEed down more efficiently)

 

however, if you compare only the DPS specs then yea I'd agree Shockstrike and tactical Surge should definitively be lv57.

 

but since these Abilities only functionality is to dazzle us with their amazing animations you can bet they won't switch them around.

Edited November 12, 2014 by DarthSpekulatius

[Ashuranrx]

PT tank and Jug tank are going to be unstoppable Huttball star player.