KOTOR II 10th Anniversary coming up; Anything special planned?

[Billupsat]

Huh, I didn't realize so many folk preferred KOTOR II. Pillow smothering withdrawn!

While personally, I will never surrender my dedication to KOTOR, I can definitely see why many people prefer the sequel.

 

But generally, I consider KOTOR II in a way much like I do Star Wars Galaxies: It made a better memory than a game.

 

Because in retrospect, KOTOR II presented a character that was far more "deep," provided more provocative dialogue, presented a darker story, anyone who delved deep enough found the companions much more fascinating, an interesting explanation to where the Companions came from, and referenced in a perfectly mysterious way what happened to Revan.

 

But along the way everything was a mess.

 

We'd be stuck on planets for hours without being near the Ebon Hawk, our character had a back story we almost had to "figure out," at least half our companions we questioned the necessity of (where did Bao-Dor come from again? What's that? He's our former science officer we met after crashing on Telos?), there were long cutscenes that disrupted gameplay, the story had no real ending, characters seemingly talked forever, a good quarter of the game we didn't get to play as the Exile, the Darths had a relatively poor origin story, the game as a while felt like one big guilt trip about the Mandalorian War, the dark/light and male/female Revan continuation was handled mediocrely, and then the ending was incomplete!

 

I will always find Revan's story greater than Meetra Surik's. But when the Terms of Service asked me to agree to disagree, I hit accept... So to each their own.

 

*hides pillow*

 

While I disagree on a few points, I'm not here to say which opinions are right or wrong, and it is to each their own as you've said. But know that I play Kotor 2 TSLRCM quite frequently, so its not something I remember as better than it was. I should probably play K1 again because I'll admit, it doesn't hold up well in my memory but I do know it was always a blast to play.

[DarkDisturbed]

Obvious cuts start showing up at the end of the game and it is overall way more buggy than KOTOR 1, but it is in no way DA2 level, even if just for the fact that very little was changed in the engine/mechanics of the game. In that respect, Obsidian made a better (safer?) choice to essentialy copy+paste KOTOR 1's gameplay with new story/textures/models instead of trying to make significant gameplay/feature and engine changes WITHIN incredibly short dev time (both KOTOR2 and DA2 had like little over a year to ship). Not to mention that DA2 didn't bring one of the best writing in video game history.

 

TSLCRM makes KOTOR 2 much better, but even in it's unfinished stage, it is a superior work of art. Both games ARE nearly identical gameplay, feature and structure wise (while DAO and DA2 are not) so the differences comes down in polish and story/writing. K1 wins in former, but the latter is ultimately more important for an RPG and bugs/cut content may be fixed, if not by patches then by modders, the writing will stay the same. So yeah, Kotor 2 was better.

 

Though it has to be pointed that KOTOR 2's ending drama was kind of a proto-Mass Effect 3 ending *****torm, it was the 'original' one to make headlines because of confusing (even if for different developement reasons) ending.

 

 

But the twist was damn effective and made the game, pretty undisputable point. Good gameplay, polish and quite novel (at that time) 3D-cinematic presentation for RPG only helped. As much as I think KOTOR 2 was better, Obs had strong foundation to build on provided by Bioware

The "tweeesst" is the only unique part of the story though, when decent writing is the stand-out exception and not the rule it still doesn't make for a very good game :S

[Pietrastor]

the dark/light and male/female Revan continuation was handled mediocrely

The fact that it was handled at ALL was novel at that time. People sure love to dwell endlessly how many mistakes Bioware made with handling Mass Effect choices, or stuff that transfers in Dragon Age, but at the same time we never mention that super classic isometric cRPGs... didn't give a crap about stuff like that at all in sequels. Straight out ignored previous choices/customized PCs. So yeah, the fact that Obs did allow players to pick whether their Revan was male/female and made (overall) light or dark choices was something new back then

 

The "tweeesst" is the only unique part of the story though, when decent writing is the stand-out exception and not the rule it still doesn't make for a very good game :S

But it's significant enough part to levarage the entire thing much above average Edited October 30, 2014 by Pietrastor

[Anysao]

I know that I just posted, but I would love to get a quick opinion on this...

 

My best way to compare the games:

 

KOTOR: Better game, lesser story.

 

KOTOR II: Worse game, better story.

 

If they were both books, I would probably like the sequel more.

[Jrr_hypernova]

The fact that it was handled at ALL was novel at that time. People sure love to dwell endlessly how many mistakes Bioware made with handling Mass Effect choices, or stuff that transfers in Dragon Age, but at the same time we never mention that super classic isometric cRPGs... didn't give a crap about stuff like that at all in sequels. Straight out ignored previous choices/customized PCs. So yeah, the fact that Obs did allow players to pick whether their Revan was male/female and made (overall) light or dark choices was something new back then

 

Well baulders gate let you ask the people who you could kill how they were alive and drizzit was pissed if you had the sword you could loot from him in 1.

[DarthDymond]

The "tweeesst" is the only unique part of the story though, when decent writing is the stand-out exception and not the rule it still doesn't make for a very good game :S

The plot was nothing spectacular outside of the twist, but I think there are plenty of places where the writing in KOTOR is better than the writing of KOTOR II - particularly with the characters/companions.

 

Kreia is absolutely the one exception (she's honestly one of the most interesting characters in all of SW lore) - but aside from her, Jolee Bindo, Canderos, Mission & "Big Z", HK-47, etc. are way more interesting than the companion characters created for KOTOR II. Aton, Mira, the Handmaiden, etc. were all pretty forgettable in my opinion.

 

I tend to think of it as KOTOR was pretty revolutionary for its time - it took a licensed property and used it as a jumping off point to create an interesting, and in many ways new, world, but while also be very respectful of the established universe - including the Tales of the Jedi stuff that came before. KOTOR II refined and improved on a lot of things - and in the places where it was good, it was great, but it was also seriously mired by how much was cut out and how unfinished and rushed it legitimately felt in the end.

Edited October 30, 2014 by DarthDymond

[ScarletBlaze]

KOTOR II is the red headed stepchild as far as Bioware is concerned.

 

Hey I object due to the fact I'm a redhead

[Suromir]

I don't get how anyone can call KOTOR II better than the first.

 

the ONLY thing better in KOTOR II were the mechanics tweaks...combat, forms, customization, etc.

 

EVERYTHING ELSE pales in comparison.

 

It's a true Obsidian product. Of course the mechanics are better. Obsidian cannot create anything of their own. They thrive on taking OTHER peoples products, tweaking them, then putting them out.

 

So of course the mechanics are better. I'd hope they were since Obsidian is incapable of doing anything original.

 

That entire game is just a product of trying to "one-up" what came before.

 

Scion - stupid. filled with so much hate he keeps himself alive even when his body is a walking corpse. Well until the Exile comes along. I guess "she" showed Scion the power of love so he would "die" finally? whatever. The entire concept of this character is stupid. But then again so are the rest of the Sith in this game.

 

Nihilus - don't even get me started on this walking moron. He's more like a childs wet dream on EVUUUL then anything else. Has to one-up who came before by being able to devour entire planets of life (those connected to force which is..all life.) Course...BioWare does try to one-up Nihilus with the idiot that is Vitiate..now we have Nihilus 2.0..instead of devouring WORLDS..Vitiate will devour the GALAXY..MWAHAHAHAHA....complete poo-show story writing.

 

Kreia - No girl, Balance isn't being light and dark. yes the darkside IS evil. A cancer. The light side is good. Why are you wrong? BECAUSE THE CREATOR OF STAR WARS SAYS SO. (lol) No matter how much your false ramblings may give the emo-fans erections.

 

And then there's the jumbled mess of story writing in the game itself and the entire unfinished aspect of it. They were rushed? Oh well...They should have put more effort into bringing what they had done together without it being stupid.

 

Seriously...All this praise about how great KotOR II is yet the majority will say it needs a FAN MADE MOD to be so...lmao on that alone.

 

Obsidian is good at what they do. Ripping off other peoples property, making tweaks, and releasing it. Then having people claim they're such a great company. When in fact...They have nothing original and rely on others to create things they can exploit.

 

And I'm saying that because it's FACT. I've liked everything Obsidian has done..from NWN2 to even Mass Effect: 007...er I mean Alpha Protocol (actually played through it several times..but it's nothing more than Mass Effect in modern times with a spy theme.)

 

KotOR's story and writing is leaps and bounds better then KotOR II's in simple fact it's coherent. II's story is just an emo-lovers delight.

 

And for the topic itself. Why would BioWare do anything for another companies games anniversary? There's absolutely no reason for them too. But maybe we'll luck out and there'll be some CM items to buy....oh wait..they've already milked that cow.

[BrintoSFJ]

They did that for the anniversary of KOTOR, but they haven't exactly treated KOTOR II well. (I'm still upset how they handled the Exile).

KOTOR is Bioware's baby, KOTOR II was made by Obsidian. I doubt Bioware would care to do anything for another company's product.

 

What he says.

[DomiSotto]

Don’t know about BioWARE, but I am going to drink to:

 

Obsidian that always was too ambitious in their vision to see things through

The Modders who tirelessly labored and saw Obsidian’s vision through with the Restored Content

Bao-Dur, the pinnacle of the character development in a videogame for me…

 

Happy Birthday, KOTOR2!

[Clarian]

Just the other week I started a playthrough of KotOR2, with the latest restored content mod and all that. I'm pretty excited, because though I did play it once when it first came out, my memory of it is so dim that it's almost like going into it fresh.

 

All I really do remember is: a lot of the ideas seemed cool, but they were just that, ideas - they didn't seem to have been fully realized and/or finished. Overall, I was disappointed, and didn't like it anywhere near as much as the first (which is why I haven't touched it since).

 

With the restored content, and my expectations tempered, maybe I'll enjoy it more now. It's interesting to see that so many people like it more than the first.

 

But to me, originality and depth aren't the most important things in video game writing. The single most important thing is...momentum, or drive. Since, being an interactive medium, you take such an active role in moving the story forward, the most important thing is to have something you really want to do, or some outcome you really want to influence.

 

In KotOR, yes, you could see

Bastila's fall to the dark side

coming a mile away, but that didn't make it any less mythic, or make me less want to influence the final outcome - in fact, the anticipation of it added to that all along the way. By contrast, I don't even remember what was supposed to be driving my character in 2. Maybe just because I don't remember...we'll see.

I think there are plenty of places where the writing in KOTOR is better than the writing of KOTOR II - particularly with the characters/companions.[...] Jolee Bindo, Canderos, Mission & "Big Z", HK-47, etc. are way more interesting than the companion characters created for KOTOR II. Aton, Mira, the Handmaiden, etc. were all pretty forgettable in my opinion.

I can't disagree, since I have, in fact, forgotten them. But, I'll see what I think this time around.

[DogeDandolo]

I'm quite sure we'll have something, SWTOR has shown great awareness of KOTOR 2 -- even if they butchered the Entity and pay more attention to Revan.

 

To me, KOTOR 2 is the franchise's Dragon Age II. An unfinished, incredibly rushed game, but with some steps in the right direction gameplaywise and -- overall -- much better writing. Due to the story being more subtle and better-presented, I can forgive Dragon Age II's many, many faults and prefer it over its predecessor, and the same goes for KOTOR 2. TSLRCM merely increases the gap.

[Billupsat]

I don't get how anyone can call KOTOR II better than the first.

 

the ONLY thing better in KOTOR II were the mechanics tweaks...combat, forms, customization, etc.

 

EVERYTHING ELSE pales in comparison.

 

It's a true Obsidian product. Of course the mechanics are better. Obsidian cannot create anything of their own. They thrive on taking OTHER peoples products, tweaking them, then putting them out.

 

So of course the mechanics are better. I'd hope they were since Obsidian is incapable of doing anything original.

 

That entire game is just a product of trying to "one-up" what came before.

 

Scion - stupid. filled with so much hate he keeps himself alive even when his body is a walking corpse. Well until the Exile comes along. I guess "she" showed Scion the power of love so he would "die" finally? whatever. The entire concept of this character is stupid. But then again so are the rest of the Sith in this game.

 

Nihilus - don't even get me started on this walking moron. He's more like a childs wet dream on EVUUUL then anything else. Has to one-up who came before by being able to devour entire planets of life (those connected to force which is..all life.) Course...BioWare does try to one-up Nihilus with the idiot that is Vitiate..now we have Nihilus 2.0..instead of devouring WORLDS..Vitiate will devour the GALAXY..MWAHAHAHAHA....complete poo-show story writing.

 

Kreia - No girl, Balance isn't being light and dark. yes the darkside IS evil. A cancer. The light side is good. Why are you wrong? BECAUSE THE CREATOR OF STAR WARS SAYS SO. (lol) No matter how much your false ramblings may give the emo-fans erections.

 

And then there's the jumbled mess of story writing in the game itself and the entire unfinished aspect of it. They were rushed? Oh well...They should have put more effort into bringing what they had done together without it being stupid.

 

Seriously...All this praise about how great KotOR II is yet the majority will say it needs a FAN MADE MOD to be so...lmao on that alone.

 

Obsidian is good at what they do. Ripping off other peoples property, making tweaks, and releasing it. Then having people claim they're such a great company. When in fact...They have nothing original and rely on others to create things they can exploit.

 

And I'm saying that because it's FACT. I've liked everything Obsidian has done..from NWN2 to even Mass Effect: 007...er I mean Alpha Protocol (actually played through it several times..but it's nothing more than Mass Effect in modern times with a spy theme.)

 

KotOR's story and writing is leaps and bounds better then KotOR II's in simple fact it's coherent. II's story is just an emo-lovers delight.

 

And for the topic itself. Why would BioWare do anything for another companies games anniversary? There's absolutely no reason for them too. But maybe we'll luck out and there'll be some CM items to buy....oh wait..they've already milked that cow.

 

As I don't understand how anyone who ahs played both games can call Kotor better than Kotor 2. It like comparing JJ Abrams to Joss Whedon, one is successful and commercial and the other is often times dark and thought provoking, and is usually better written.

 

http://kotaku.com/why-star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-2-is-better-1583670790

 

This here pretty much sums up my own opinion and won't be nearly as catty and belittling as I would have been responding to this comment.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Billupsat

[DomiSotto]

Don't get me wrong, KOTOR1 was a lovely game, and I really appreciated a chance to play a Jedi, it was of that solid recognizable BioWARE quality. Good stuff. I don't dispute it was made from scratch, and that it is obviously the original, and that KOTOR2 is derivative.

 

But KOTOR2... I played KOTOR 2 for the first time with RC last winter after I broke my foot, and finally reloaded a game I started in 2009 or so. I stopped to game and mod for a few years due to RL (which were a hobby for quite a while before that), so KOTOR2 hit me like a stim. I could not stop the run. And I loaded SWTOR as soon as I finished it.

 

And what blew me away were the characters and the protagonist.

 

I barely remember KOTOR1. All the later overlays over Revan made my character nearly go under water completely. The canon made her completely irrelevant. Carth was Okay, but all I could dig up from my memory was a widower with a son and was on some sort of a rebound/build the trust journey. Not bad, but not stellar either. Who else? Bastilla was that super-annoying bossy holier-than-thou with attitude, and, oh, yeah, the Cathar who decided she was a Sith sitting under that tree wasn't bad, and a big boring Mandalorian who didn't really say much (pretty much the same as in KOTOR2).

 

Came KOTOR2… and all my digital dreams for epic relationships and a protagonist’s backstory I can love suddenly got realized. SO, it's emo-angst, but I have never had seen a game that delivered it with such mastery!

 

Obsidian was telling the same story they always told, from Torment on, but this time, it got me. Because of the Exile's concept. Because of the Atton, Mical and Bao-Dur trio. I felt that my character mattered to me, and mattered to the companions. Yes, at times, the game was almost ridiculous with absolutely everyone making the PC the center of their universe (you too, Darth Sion kindda laughs), but it sure worked with the companions.

 

I am used to a female protagonist getting the hand me downs dialogues from the males and shortchanged on options, but not in KOTOR2! For the first time in my life I played a game that made me happy to be a female player.

 

And Bao-Dur… wow, just WOW!

 

Not a single romance in any game was as memorable as that absolutely stunning relationship with Bao-Dur in KOTOR2. OMG, forget the whole “I like you – let’s go on a date – let’s kiss – let’s go to bed – let’s marry” tepid sequences Bio churns out. In KOTOR2 I was playing a romance I always wanted, even if it was not labled as such, and there were no kissing animations (the animations are very nice).

 

It was EPIC.

 

It had a mature male character with a soft voice who held his own, no matter that he was a part of her crew.

I know you, but I will play your game, General.

You want to be a Jedi again? I will build you a sabre….

And, you have a chance to give back, knighting Bao.

 

Finally, the best romantic dialogue ever… “The longest you have looked at me….”

 

OMG.

 

I can’t remember a single dialogue from a single romance out of many, many, many I have played/written/coded in my past, but I will never forget that one, the revelation that this quiet male NPC wasted a world at a simple nod of her head, when she was a General and he was a tech. Holy crow!

 

And then Bao-Dur went off and sacrificed himself and gave her his one precious childhood possession, Remote, to redeem both of them, to undo Malachor V.

 

That’s the kind of a romance, the kind of a connection to a companion I want in a game’s story… and I have never seen it before or since.

 

And that is why KOTOR2, an old unoriginal game, full of emo angst stands out for me.

Edited October 30, 2014 by DomiSotto

[DogeDandolo]

^ Kinda amusing considering that the female Exile's "romance options" really are Atton and not-Handmaiden, but I agree that Bao Dur was a much more engaging character.

[DomiSotto]

I understand that the Atton and Disciple are the romantic options, but while both have good story lines, and Disciple is actually the only younger apprentice presumably in love with a female PC (males get them in droves in SWTOR), Bao-Dur's unisex story actually makes a top-notch romance of epic proportion that is about what they do for one another. I don't know how translatable it is into SGR, but as a straight female I loved it. Sure, Atton pouts and rages, and sortta-kindda maybe likes the girl. But what does he actually do out of love? Nothing. While Bao-Dur is unwaveringly loyal and gives everything he has to her without ever asking for anything in return. Again, the man who wasted the world at a simple nod of her head... oh, my. MOAR, please! Edited October 30, 2014 by DomiSotto

[DogeDandolo]

I understand that the Atton and Disciple are the romantic options, but while both have good story lines, and Disciple is actually the only younger apprentice presumably in love with a female PC (males get them in droves in SWTOR), Bao-Dur's unisex story actually makes a top-notch romance of epic proportion that is about what they do for one another. I don't know how translatable it is into SGR, but as a straight female I loved it. Sure, Atton pouts and rages, and sortta-kindda maybe likes the girl. But what does he actually do out of love? Nothing. While Bao-Dur is ultimately loyal and gives everything he has to her without ever asking for anything in return. Again, the man who wasted the world at a simple nod of her head... oh, my. MOAR, please!

 

True, true.

[Gentleman_snow]

I picked up KOTOR 1 for a friend of mine recently as a gift via Steam, because I knew she had never played it and she's a big Star Wars fan. I then realized that in the ten years since I last played it, I had forgotten everything about it except for the Revan twist! I got my own copy via Steam and played through it again for the very first time. ^_^

 

Realizing I was on a roll, I picked up KOTOR 2 and dove right into that the day after I killed Malak (which was as tough a fight as I remember; on other player throughs I refined my approach to him, but again, this was after forgetting the game for ten years). I remembered feeling KOTOR 2 had an amazing story but being SO mad about the ending, and an apparent unresolved cliffhanger with GOTO in particular.

 

I found the resolution to the GOTO cliffhanger via youtube - about time! - and I've been really enjoying my play through. The story is darker, the character development deeper, I like the influence mechanic and now talking to characters is a choice instead of NUDGE NUDGE, SOMEBODY'S GOT SUMTHIN' TO SAY. We'll see how the restored content mod works the ending.

 

What I can say is, both games are generally amazing. The told two different stories with two different approaches but both are grand for it. If KOTOR 2 was a total clone of KOTOR 1 I'd be far less impressed with it. Nobody likes a cut and paste sequel. If anyone thought they failed at it, they at least failed trying to do something new and deeper, and I don't call that a loss per se. I've loved both games all over again, and since I only played KOTOR 2 twice when it first dropped (versus maybe seven or eight for KOTOR 1) I remember -even less- than before, so I'm twice as fresh for my trouble. ^_^

 

Can we just accept that the games are awesome for different reasons instead of trying to hold them to one mold?

[Nickious]

KOTOR II was one among so many reasons Lucasarts pissed me off over 10 years (aside from wasting their IP rights) KOTOR 2 wouldn't have been given such a bad reputation for being buggy and incomplete had they left them finish it and essentially added what the RCM restored. I played it without and loved it regardless but nevertheless, you can tell there was alot missing.

[BrianDavion]

one thing to consider about KOTOR 1 vs KOTOR 2 is the type of games they where. KOTOR 1 was a Star Wars game, ultimatly designed to be a self contaiend experiance that was enjoyable even if you had only seen the movies. they HAD to keep it a little simple, and be classic SW. KOTOR 2 had the benifit of being well.. a KOTOR sequal. and thus had a little more room to play. that said KOTOR 2 greyed things up in ways that where just silly. I think I actually rolled my eyes when they started trying to provide an IC explination for XP

[Billupsat]

I try to avoid K1 bashing myself, I just get defensive when people say its the better game. Which really comes down to a matter of taste and opinion, and its my opinion that since Bioware acknowledged K2 in Swtor it should receive the same treatmentk1 did on its anniversary! Celebrate both games.

[chaharbagh]

Could any of the devs at least respond to this thread, please?

[DomiSotto]

Unlikely, with all the hype around SoR and the mountains of work the team is now facing. Doesn't mean we can't celebrate it here...

 

I mean, what do you want specifically? Armor, mount, title? Just curious?

[DogeDandolo]

Unlikely, with all the hype around SoR and the mountains of work the team is now facing. Doesn't mean we can't celebrate it here...

 

I mean, what do you want specifically? Armor, mount, title? Just curious?

 

I'll take Bao-Dur and Visas Marr as temporary companions, thank you very much.

[LadyKulvax]

KotOR II is for people who want the deep, thought provoking storylines and dialogue.

 

KotOR I is for people who want to play the Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader classic storyline and more importantly choose Jedi or Sith, really nothing special beyond the fact it was (ignoring Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy) the first Star Wars game to give this option.

 

KotOR II actually made some considerable and controversial steps in the Star Wars lore, in-fact so large that people to this day mistake widening the range of fan/character POVs on the Force/Jedi/Sith, for 'breaking the lore'.

 

KotOR I just took the classic Star Wars story and turned it into a 'choice' RPG.