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How to Fix Ashara Zavros


Rephe

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EDIT: Read Chackey's thread instead. It's better than mine: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=10124

 

I no longer support this thread. My post at the bottom of Page 3 explains why if you're interested.

 

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Note: Spoilers for the Sith Inquisitor storyline follow.

 

For a dark side Sith Inquisitor, which is most of them, Ashara Zavros is easily the most frustrating character in the game.

 

It's not even her stubborn personality or anything like that. I personally don't mind having a Jedi ally around; she can believe whatever she wants just as long as she's useful to me.

 

But her storyline is too broken to make her anything more than annoying. After a certain point during her affection missions, she starts to talk to the player about a task to reform the Empire from within into something peaceful. And the Sith Inquisitor goes along with it.

 

My SI would have shocked her into submission for suggesting something like that, but the game didn't allow it.

 

Simply put: This issue should be treated like a bug, not like new content. This isn't about adding new content for people who have already played through something; this is to make sure that when people play the Sith Inquisitor in the future, they won't have to deal with a broken storyline.

 

The solution is this: Allow the Inquisitor to take a more neutral or dark stance in their conversations. Don't fill a three-choice dialogue wheel with three of the same choices. You can keep her Jedi mindset (after all, why would the Inquisitor need Xalek if she was a perfect apprentice?), but make it so that the Inquisitor can debate the dark side with her. Lord Scourge already does a reverse version of this with the Jedi Knight.

 

If content like a dark side version of her or a female-female romance could be added in the future, then great. But for the moment, she is as broken as any other "Known Issue" and she needs to be fixed.

Edited by Rephe
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I agree with this, this was the exact conversation that ruined the Ashara romance for me. Every other class/partnership felt natural, this one the whole thing feels like a sham, a lie. I mean it fits perfectly fine for the dark/light manipulation rp of it all but it's not fine for a romance. Poorly thought out in my opinion. It would have been better if she was just a companion instead of the only RI as well. Edited by Ridickilis
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I like and hate Ashara at the same time. I really wish we could of made her a Dark Jedi, kind of like how it's possible to turn Jaesa. It's the reasons I don't bother to gain affection with her, because of the lack of dark side paths to go down.

 

Also, having her as a Dark Jedi would still fit with the story, because the whole point of getting Xalek is because he is an apprentice picked from Korriban, and that comes with prestige and whatnot.

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Don't get me wrong, I completely support the idea of adding a Dark-Side version of her. This is meant to be more of a "bug fix", since a lot of her dialogue breaks the game for (I assume) a majority of Inquisitors.

 

The problem with adding the option of making her a Sith or a Dark Jedi is that it requires a much more significant effort on Bioware's part to add. I'm only suggesting that the last 2/3 of Ashara's story be partially rewritten so that the game doesn't assume the Inquisitor is Light Sided.

 

If they were going to give the player a choice to make her a Sith like they did with Jaesa, that would mean that they would have to write a new companion with a new storyline, and they would have to alter the existing SI storyline to compensate.

 

Like I said, if they can find the time to do that, then that would be great, but this is an easier fix to make for the time being.

 

Point taken about Xalek, by the way. I completely forgot about the prestige of that. Gets me thinking though; if Ashara could be Dark Sided, her reaction to the Inquisitor choosing a new apprentice because he's more "prestigious" would be hilarious.

Edited by Rephe
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There is another thread about it

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=772611

 

so thoughts for both:

 

I don’t think there is a mechanics in the game that allows to distinguish between affection bought with gifts, and affection gained by the companion supporting the conversation choices s/he witnessed. Ashara is just like every other companion with a strong alignment opposition to the PC’s who was bought out, be that Qyzen, Andronicus, Kalyio or Scourge… the dialogues just assume that you more or less share the worldview. Jaesa is really a special snowflake that way.

 

Seeing that gifts are for unlocking the crafting capabilities mainly, I guess it can be resolved by Vette-like dialogues shut down unless the Inquisitor moves to the LS but keeping APs bonuses for crafting purposes. But then you will get male players complaining they can’t romance her. Bio games used to have species and alignment restrictions on the romances. It was not the most popular feature, because it was too restrictive and subjective. Then they went to affection, and people did not like that they were made to play a certain way to get all of the dialogues. Now, with the gifts and the affection in place you can play the way you want and still see all there is of the dialogues. But now you do not like the dialogues you have unlocked via the utility option.

 

I have not seen any indication that BioWARE is going to add any more companion content. However, if calling the absence of desired dialogue options a bug would get it added, OMG, I have a bug report! Zenith, Scourge, Gault, Tanno, Talos and Xalek's romances are just not triggering for me by some reason, and Pierce's stalled out after the first dialogue...

 

Bio, please, please, please... a fix? ;)

Edited by DomiSotto
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I don’t think there is a mechanics in the game that allows to distinguish between affection bought with gifts, and affection gained by the companion supporting the conversation choices s/he witnessed. Ashara is just like every other companion with a strong alignment opposition to the PC’s who was bought out, be that Qyzen, Andronicus, Kalyio or Scourge… the dialogues just assume that you more or less share the worldview.

 

I don't mind that she's opposite alignment, she would have been fine for just a crew member. The problem is what the OP stated; there is no way to tell her you reject her worldview of the Empire and have it make any sense in any of the followup conversations. It's like she's living in fantasy world, only believing what she wants to believe about the Inq.'s intentions rather than reality. In fact, it's the little things such as hearing her say "don't make me go against my teachings". Well, *** do you think you've been doing with me since Taris!? I hate to break it too you honey but , YOU ALREADY HAVE!. :rak_04:

 

Vette is a good reference, but not for quite the same reason you stated.

 

Vette is LS (without splitting hairs about some DS choices gaining affection with her). However in all the conversations with her, you can be fully DS and the whole pairing still makes perfect sense. In fact that's my favorite RI of all the classes and romances (DS warrior with Vette instead of Jaesa).

 

Yeah, I do agree they won't change anything drastic like this now or make her flip a switch like Jaesa... but it's rather annoying. Kinda wishing I rolled female inquisitors instead. Oh well.

 

 

I still contest that Thana Vesh should have been the Inq's melee dps companion that we got at the end of Taris. I can see the flirt options now, which are really just us going back and fourth insulting one another all while gaining affection with her. :o

 

Edited by Ridickilis
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This completely ruined the romance for me. It was so unfitting of my Assassin, but there was really no other choice. I played my Assassin before my Mara, and when I got to Jaesa, I LOVED that you could choose to either make her dark or light. While I agree it's a huge let down, there'd be far too much work that BW would have to put in for it to be worth it.
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Clearly, more thought went into certain story lines than others. The SI storyline is generally recognized as being one of the weaker ones, no surprise that companion conversations follow that trend. Best just to ignore it, and use the 12x XP to do the other more interesting stories like SW or IA. Edited by Jimvinny
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I am not saying that it is well designed, or that wishing for more options is somehow wrong. It is normal. I am just saying that:

 

1. you are not supposed to see these conversations. It is not programmed for completely bought out affection. It is programmed for purchasing some, picking some options that are of the same mindset.

 

2. It is no different from any other companion.

I can tell Qyzen that I can’t care less for his immersion-breaking Points and his dumb deity, then give him enough weapons, and he will be happily prattling about how I am the Huntress Incarnate as if I have agreed with him all along. Vette still calls my scary dame her mom and raves about us being a happy little family despite witnessing every horrid deed the game had to offer and being personally insulted and abused. Underworld goods have that effect on her. Etc, etc, etc.

 

3. It's simply not true that it’s a bug, or that Ashara has to be fixed, while the 38 other companions don’t. She is not special and deserving of more attention than the rest of them. If you start adding options to her to react to alignment and player choices, then you have to add the same options to everyone else.

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^^^ There's a big difference between the Ashara situation and the other comps such as Qyzen.

 

With Qyzen you can say "your hokey religion is stupid and hokey" and net a bunch of negative affection. You buy him back with gifts and he seems to forget how much of an *** you were and keeps going on about you being the Scorekeeper's champ. Sure that's annoying, but thats a flaw that affects HIM, you can still continue to disagree on his points.

 

With Ashara, if you do a similar thing and go full DS with her from the beginning, you net a ton of negative affection. But, if you buy her back, weird **** happens. You'll talk to her again and she'll be similar to Qyzen where she suddenly thinks your going to be a massive reform for the Empire, but unlike Qyzen or other comps, you can't disagree with her anymore! You end up with situations where all 3 choices in your conversation wheel are different ways of agreeing with her viewpoint that the empire needs reform and change for the better, even though you vehemontly dissagreed with her from the beginning

 

That is what I think most people find infuriating

Edited by Terro_Fett
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@DomiSotto

 

The difference is that this isn't just dialogue or story that I want, like adding a romance would be. Do I want my female Trooper to be able to romance Elara? Hell yeah I do. Just because they didn't write it doesn't make it "bugged".

 

What does make it "bugged" is that the game assumes you did something that you didn't. That is almost the definition of a bug.

 

Yes, fixing it would require time spent rewriting previous content, but like I said it's not about adding new stuff. While I do support adding dialogue for Ashara to be darksided I feel that this solution would be easier for Bioware to implement at least for the time being.

 

The easier it is, the higher a chance there is for it to be added, and the less time taken away from making other new content.

Edited by Rephe
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And other characters do it all the time as well. Off the top of my head:

 

My Consular outright refused to bed Tharan. Tharan's next dialogue starts with "Unfortunately our love affair has to finish, etc"

My Warrior who manfully restrained himself from bedding Celvante after Vette's goes: "Any port in the storm?" still tells Barras that he killed Grathan and nailed his old lady, and Vette facepalms in the background.

Riggs still treats the Smuggler as if she is pure as white snow, even if she systematically sampled the male population in front of his very eyes....

Tanno Vik still claps my Major on the shoulder as a play-along even if he steadfastly refused any and all of his schemes...

etc, etc, etc

 

Literally every character whose affection you just bought out, not AP'd through convos will still treat your PC as someone who generally picked options that pleased them.

 

Ashara is not special, not different, not bugged. She functions as intended. She talks to the character who gained high AP with her assuming that he is LS because he gained that much AP with her.

Edited by DomiSotto
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That's laziness, not a functioning game mechanic.

 

From my understanding, the reason that Ashara Zavros assumes the character is lightsided is because she could be killed during the Beta. The option to save her is a LS choice and depicts the player as merciful.

 

Somewhere along the line, an executive decision was made that companions couldn't be killed during the story because that would leave the player ill-equipped for Crew Skills.

 

The Crew Skills part is what's most important. As a companion grows in Affection with the player, their performance during Crew Skills becomes better. It's clearly intended for the player to reach maximum Affection so that they can have the best performance.

 

So why, if they removed companion death from the game so that the player could be equipped for crew skills, would they intentionally make it so that a DS Inquisitor (which is most of them!) couldn't be as well-equipped as a LS Inquisitor?

 

And why should a LS Inquisitor have a working story with Khem and Xalek if a DS Inquisitor can't have one with Ashara, especially since she's the male Inquisitor's only romanceable companion?

 

Not to mention, Lord Scourge is a buy-out companion for the Jedi Knight, but he works perfectly despite fulfilling the same basic concept as Ashara for the Inquisitor. If his storyline works fine, then there's even less of an excuse not to fix Ashara's story.

Edited by Rephe
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Because the decision for the characters to live was made later in the development cycle than the companion dialogues where written, coded and voiced. As of now, there is no new development on the companions. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Ashara is not broken. She is over-fixored, with utility options available to the player. If the story doesn't appeal, do not initiate dialogue with her. She will still be as useful in the cargo hold. Which is what your 10,000 AP bought with gifts means.

 

As for the only option that only suits only one alignment, well, welcome to what a female PC gets each and every time, on every class. A female player never gets to chose red shirt or blue shirt at all. Males have it in a few story-lines.

 

How's Ahsara situation is any different than the female one, in that she only gets to romance a DS Andronicus?

 

As for most Inq being DS, I beg you to differ.

Edited by DomiSotto
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I realize that they had already finished the story. That is no excuse not to fix it afterwards.

 

And that's all I'm doing now, is asking them to fix it.

 

You're telling me you would rather play with unfinished, nonsensical content instead of even asking for it to be finished?

 

If Andronikos is assuming you're DS, even as a LS Inquisitor, that means he isn't working the way he should and the game is assuming things. Just like Ashara.

 

I don't know why males have more romances than females, and that's not related to this.

 

The fact remains that the player can get to 10,000 affection with Ashara as a DS Inquisitor. If it wasn't supposed to be that way, it wouldn't be possible now, 4 years into the game.

 

The "don't like it, don't play it" excuse doesn't apply here. I shouldn't have to avoid the story of one of my companions because the game doesn't take the choices I've already established into account, especially since she was forced onto the player because of a last-second decision.

 

I take the story seriously. If I have a Jedi aboard, I want my Sith to be able to argue with her. I don't want to ignore her missions forever and only use her as a crew skill slave. That is a waste of a companion and a unique character.

Edited by Rephe
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I understand your concerns, I have tons of them just like that. I want many things just like that.

 

What I am saying is that Ashara is not an exception, not a bug, and it is not fair to single her out and ask for additional content for her, and her alone on the premise that it is somehow a bug, while other character normally exhibit the same inflexible behavior and, just like Ashara, don't get interesting and diverse options.

 

A few class stories actually break down if the player plays provided options to play an opposite alignment... which is a touch harder to swallow than not having a DS RI.

 

The easiest fix to your problem is Bio shutting off the dialogue track for an opposite alignment or a companion leaving the party. That has been the normal practice in the past, when the one-track dialogue was deemed simply to not make sense. As a player you can elect to emulate just that. There is no rule you have to romance every companion that is romanceable or talk to them. If RP is important to you, skip it. Your DS Inquisitor can certainly manipulate and nod along Ahsara's delusional prattle just to bed her or for laughs. You can head canon pretty much any dialogue you want, where your Inq can win over Ashara any way he wants, million ways till Friday.

 

Or you can make choices that make sense with the romancee. I have a DS F!Inq and LS M!Iq to romance Andronicus and Ashara and to avoid Ashara's content on F!side. I do have a DS!Warrior, but it is a female, so I do not romance Jaessa.

 

On a moddable game, things like LS Jaesa romance, LS Scourge, DS Ahsara dialogue path would have been readily supplied by the community (or you could have easily coded it yourself to suit your personal ideas). On a MMO, not so much. It is designed to be played out of the can. If Bio suddenly snapped to attention and started working diligently to grant your wish, I would consider it ultimately unfair, but I might well play it :)

Edited by DomiSotto
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I think something that a lot of people seem to forget is: not all affection is gained through companion storyline, but all affection is gained through companion interaction.

 

Put it in some real-world perspective for a bit. You and a friend/girlfriend have a pretty feirce disagreement about something really important to them: politics, religion, whatever. You are really insulting and they should be really offended. Then you proceed to spend a hundred thousand dollars buying them gifts. Eventually you make it up to them and they forgive you for what you said.

 

That is what you are experiencing. If you do not agree with a companion, then don't agree with them. Your affection will stay low. The conversation chain will not progress further. You will be at a point in the relationship where it "makes sense."

 

But if you take your companion out on field missions and agree with everything they say, or you buy them piles and piles of gifts that they absolutely love, all in order to mend the damage that you did to your relationship, then you have chosen to mend this relationship. She's not reacting to your actions incorrectly; you are compartmentalizing your actions to pretend as though some count and others don't.

 

If your Affection with a companion is at 8000, then you agree with them, or you are working pretty darn hard at faking it to convince them. It is entirely appropriate then for the game to process that information accordingly. "Hey, this guy plays his character as getting along incredibly well with Ashara. Obviously he will respond in the positive, because everything else he does seems to be in the positive." It's the same thing people run into when they don't want to romance a companion, but do continue to affection them up by agreeing with them and gifting them. There's only so long you can string them on before they assume you're interested.

 

If you want them to hate you, let them. I'm having great fun on my 4th Trooper right now where I am rebellious and insubordinate, and I bring Dorne right along with me and tick her off. Affection is at -1000. She doesn't like me. And when I try to talk to her, the game realizes she doesn't like me, which allows it to respond appropriately.

 

Don't complain that the game breaks the emersion of your roleplay, when you metagame your own loopholes to avoid roleplaying in the first place. Affection is 100% under your control, and nobody will assume you agree with them unless you give them reasons to in the first place.

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The easiest fix to your problem is Bio shutting off the dialogue track for an opposite alignment or a companion leaving the party. That has been the normal practice in the past, when the one-track dialogue was deemed simply to not make sense. As a player you can elect to emulate just that. There is no rule you have to romance every companion that is romanceable or talk to them. If RP is important to you, skip it. Your DS Inquisitor can certainly manipulate and nod along Ahsara's delusional prattle just to bed her or for laughs. You can head canon pretty much any dialogue you want, where your Inq can win over Ashara any way he wants, million ways till Friday.

 

Actually I agree with this. I just wish we didn't have to head canon so much.

Edited by Rephe
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@drug_cartel

 

You don't understand. I don't want her to hate me.

 

So what if we disagree? That doesn't stop Lord Scourge from having a good relationship with the Jedi Knight.

 

My problem is that when you talk to her, the game assumes you're light sided even when you're clearly not. Yes, it makes sense that that dialogue should only be open to light side characters. I agree with that.

 

Unless you want to be crippled when you do Crew Skills, you have to get her affection to 10,000. Otherwise you miss out on her bonuses.

 

And since the last 2/3 of her story assumes you're light sided, which is story-breaking unless you head canon an explanation, that only leaves the solution of ignoring her. The point of this thread is that I don't want to ignore her.

 

Adding dialogue in a quality of life update to encourage choice and make a sensible game isn't a bad thing. It's nearly the same logic as asking Bioware for SGR with companions, which is an idea that has, and has always had, a lot of support.

 

The game can assume that I'm friends with Ashara if I have max affection with her, but when it assumes that I'm a different alignment than I really am is when there's a problem.

 

For example, what if someone during the Trooper story assumed you were a traitor to the Republic because you had a DS alignment? Yet you can be a DS Trooper who is loyal to the Republic, fulfilling orders to the letter no matter the moral consequences. It wouldn't make sense. You can head canon that they were misinformed, but that doesn't exactly fix it.

Edited by Rephe
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I don't see how anyone can say her story makes any sense with a dark side aligned player. Even with similar alignment clashes, there is usually a justification for having that companion. Lord Scourage is helping you save the galaxy, so a light side jedi knight would welcome his help. Tanno Vik's skills are necessary for a huge mission, so a light side trooper, would still recruit them. But there is literally no reason for a dark side inquisitor to continue tolerating Ashara. Her goals are literally the opposite of yours. She wants to create a lasting peace in the galaxy, you as a dark side inquisitor will want to destroy the republic (may be a secondary goal, with your primary goal being to gain as much power with in the empire as possible).
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I feel like her story could be slightly altered so that a DS Inquisitor could convince her to take on a point of view similar to Darth Caedus. She might want a lasting peace, but her time with Inquisitor could show her the flaws with the Republic and the benefits of having an Empire to enforce order.

 

Like Darth Traya said in KOTOR II, the Republic was weak in the time before the Mandalorian Wars because they grew used to having no threats. When a threat finally showed itself they were unprepared and lost ground very quickly, so much so that the Republic would have lost the war without Revan and his Jedi. Meanwhile, millions of Republic soldiers and civilians were killed.

 

Using this logic, the Inquisitor could convince her that the Empire's philosophy of conflict could, ironically, be the best way to keep the people of the galaxy safe.

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She wants to create a lasting peace in the galaxy, you as a dark side inquisitor will want to destroy the republic (maybe a secondary goal, with your primary goal being to gain as much power with in the empire as possible).

 

I guess I'm missing the way they don't align.

 

Her primary goal is to establish peace. She's not loyal to the Republic implicitly; she is loyal to the Jedi Counsel (and she openly admits she questions some of their positions).

 

The Inquisitor's primary goal is to gain power. We want to gain power and ascend to the highest position we can. We want to rule. When you ask my Inquisitor what she wants, her answer will be: "Everything."

 

In the words of Doctor Horrible, "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." I don't want to ascend to power in order to fight a never-ending war. I want to ascend to power in order to defeat all of my enemies and control everything. And when I control everything, there will be no more war, no more conflict, because I will slaughter all those who disagree with me. No one will dare oppose me.

 

And then we will finally have peace.

 

Ashara and the Inquisitor are both looking at the big picture, and she's backing the winning horse. The galaxy can stay at war forever, with countless lives pointlessly dying on both sides, or she can help you to actually WIN and put this whole war to rest.

 

And as for wanting to destroy the Republic? I don't know where you get that idea. From the very beginning of the Inquisitor Class Story until the very end, you NEVER fight against the Republic as more than a casual speed bump on your quest for power.

 

 

Act 1: You serve Zash and gather her artifacts to help her gain power within the Dark Counsel. She is being opposed by Darth Thanaton, and you are helping her to prepare for that battle against the SITH, not the Republic.

 

Act 2: You gather the spirits you need in order to oppose Thanaton yourself. Everywhere you go, everything you do is to help you fight against the SITH, not the Republic.

 

Act 3: You act in self-preservation, doing what is necessary to stay alive. Then you finalize your power base and wage war against Darth Thanaton.

 

Full Class Story, start to finish, you enemy is a member of the Dark Counsel, not the Republic. The only time you ever fight against the Republic at all is a few incidental times when they are in the way of what you need. The Sith enslaved you, tried to kill you, and you dedicate your life into fighting against them.

 

 

I don't see how people interpret their Inquisitors as so loyal to the Empire. Look at the story again, look at what they did to you, and how you responded. From birth til death, the Empire has been the cause of all your grief, and the Republic has never done a thing to you.

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I guess I'm missing the way they don't align.

 

Her primary goal is to establish peace. She's not loyal to the Republic implicitly; she is loyal to the Jedi Counsel (and she openly admits she questions some of their positions).

 

The Inquisitor's primary goal is to gain power. We want to gain power and ascend to the highest position we can. We want to rule. When you ask my Inquisitor what she wants, her answer will be: "Everything."

 

In the words of Doctor Horrible, "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." I don't want to ascend to power in order to fight a never-ending war. I want to ascend to power in order to defeat all of my enemies and control everything. And when I control everything, there will be no more war, no more conflict, because I will slaughter all those who disagree with me. No one will dare oppose me.

 

And then we will finally have peace.

 

Ashara and the Inquisitor are both looking at the big picture, and she's backing the winning horse. The galaxy can stay at war forever, with countless lives pointlessly dying on both sides, or she can help you to actually WIN and put this whole war to rest.

 

And as for wanting to destroy the Republic? I don't know where you get that idea. From the very beginning of the Inquisitor Class Story until the very end, you NEVER fight against the Republic as more than a casual speed bump on your quest for power.

 

 

Act 1: You serve Zash and gather her artifacts to help her gain power within the Dark Counsel. She is being opposed by Darth Thanaton, and you are helping her to prepare for that battle against the SITH, not the Republic.

 

Act 2: You gather the spirits you need in order to oppose Thanaton yourself. Everywhere you go, everything you do is to help you fight against the SITH, not the Republic.

 

Act 3: You act in self-preservation, doing what is necessary to stay alive. Then you finalize your power base and wage war against Darth Thanaton.

 

Full Class Story, start to finish, you enemy is a member of the Dark Counsel, not the Republic. The only time you ever fight against the Republic at all is a few incidental times when they are in the way of what you need. The Sith enslaved you, tried to kill you, and you dedicate your life into fighting against them.

 

 

I don't see how people interpret their Inquisitors as so loyal to the Empire. Look at the story again, look at what they did to you, and how you responded. From birth til death, the Empire has been the cause of all your grief, and the Republic has never done a thing to you.

 

I agree with a lot of this. For sure don't think of the SI as loyal to the Empire.

 

That's the group that made you a slave, possibly hates you because you're an alien (unless one picks human), through you into what is basically a death camp only the strong survive.

 

I'd think the Inquisitor has a lot of reason to either defect or go rogue and start their own empire.

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