The Male Body - A humble suggestion on how to improve it

[Eldrethor]

You all bring up good points. I am glad Bioware created different body types at all, and yet there is definitely room for improvement as time goes on. It's understandable that there are many other issues that they have on their plate regarding the functionality of the game, but I'd love to see a good chunk of attention paid to character customization. The perfect character creation system, in my eyes, is one that allows the player to specify most of their character's physical attributes while forcing a general, overall conformity towards the artistic design of the game. For example, if we were allowed to choose between the 4 body types that the designers thought were appropriate, and then were also given sliders for weight, height, muscle mass, etc, we could finish off those personal touches we might want to make to the models we are given, without intruding on other's preferences by only having certain, set models. I don't expect that level of freedom really, but currently I feel like I'm wading through a galaxy full of strange caricatures, when it comes to the male models at least. One of my peeves is that all of the female models are unreasonably shorter than their male counterparts, while better off in terms of not looking mutated. The Male 3 model is a hulking, towering brute, while the Female 3 isn't even as tall as the Male 2 model. What's up with that? What's the harm in putting some effort into allowing us to refine the character we are going to be on a journey with throughout the game? If they devoted some resources to working on this, even in a limited way, a little at a time, they'd be surprised by how many people would respond positively, it's not exactly been done often in MMOs. Great game, and I don't think the models are bad, but this is what I'll be hoping for in the future.

[Brambline]

Wow nice to see this thread was awakened!

 

I've actually heard several men complain of not being able to play male characters at all. What most of them say is that they wished there were a middle ground between body type II and type III and even though I'm a female with just 1 male toon, I agree. I'd definitely have chosen something in between 2 and 3 as well. 2 looks just too wimpy and like he has a shrunken body compared to his head, while 3 is way too bulky.

 

Something that's started to really get on my nerves as well lately has been how badly characters are animated in respect to gravity. I mean I love the movements that they make when they fight for instance, but the animations for standing around and walking just look somehow rigid and like they're dolls and not living breathing creatures. Their limbs seem to lack gravity and a flow to them - they just sort of jut out like sticks. Even though WoW's characters are cartoony, I think they did a better job in this respect and always had a natural motion to them.

 

I'm not quite sure whether the culprit here is how the limbs are positioned or the limb shape or the animation itself, probably a mixture of the three. But yeah, I constantly get this twitching irritance about how rigid characters are.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Brambline

[Zebular]

I'd love to see the male figures re-evaluated and touched up, like how Brambline suggests in the OP.

 

Kudos.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Zebular

[BenjaminminU]

I'm a female player and most of my character's are females. I have to say I am very happy with the female body type II and have used that for all my girlies. However today I made a male character (hey we ladies like to have something nice to look at too ya know) and quickly noticed that his body proportions looked very strange indeed. Usually females have long legs and short torsos, but in the human male should be the opposite: longer torsos with a lower laying waistline as well.

 

I decided to take a screenshot and play around with it in Photoshop, cutting and moving the parts around and this is what I came up with:

 

http://andrea.net/pics/human_male_body.jpg

 

1) Elongate the torso and shorten the legs

2) Move the waistline closer to the crotch

3) Widen the hips and rib cage

 

Since body Type II is the default body for the male when you first make one, and since it is meant to represent the most neutral type of body (versus the skinny type I, the bodybuilder Type III & the chunky Type IV), I think it's important that Type II would look relatively natural and allow players to have at least one choice of character that doesn't look weird to them.

 

I'm not even going to go into the "Man fuller chest" issue, but I've seen A LOT of men complaining about that. I don't find it that much of an issue myself, although filling out the male waistline from the side as well would do wonders to balance things out.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I am male and i fully approve of these changes, especially as you fixed that problem of the crotch being a bit lacking.

[Akkalevil]

Wonder if Bioware actually even looked at this thread...

[Apax]

We complained about the male body art since early beta, and in that time since then nothing ever changed. I don't even recall them ever opening a dialogue with us about our concerns on this topic. So, I wouldn't get my hopes up despite what my signature says. Edited January 28, 2012 by Apax

[Shaddaq]

Hello,

 

These photoshopped versions of the male form look like an improvement to me.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Shaddaq

[Invictos]

Just wanted to thank Brambline for the fantastic mock ups.

 

The Type II body bothered me in character selection, but I couldn't quite put my finger on why; at the time I thought the head looked too big for the body. Anyway, because of the head/body issue, I ended up with the type III body. Though the outlandish pectoral bulge on the Type III is annoying, it's preferable to the alternative.

 

Your fixes would make type II worth playing. Hard to imagine that the designers didn't look at (or deliberately ignored) classic proportions.

[ptwonline]

This is one of the reasons that as a male, I prefer to play female characters. More time/effort seems to be spent making female characters look good than the male ones.

 

The first 2 years I played a Human Male in WoW, and after that completely gave up on male charcters because I got tired of looking so terrible. Who wants to look so goofy or poorly proportioned all the time? Other games have similar issues.

[areto]

Very interesting and very beautiful work you've done there.

 

I'm a designer and I'm always awed by the type of work the artists can do.

 

I think perhaps the reason the anatomy is a bit odd is because it is designed to be quite stylized like the cgi-wooden-puppet look we see in The Clone Wars movie and tv series, and I think somehow they didn't quite pull this off, some aspects are very realistic in style and some are quite cartoonized(not a word). It's not so bad that it really requires any fixing but a stronger move toward one side of the spectrum or the other might of been in order.

 

Again, cool post.

[notebene]

Very nice work!

[AJediKnight]

Great thread. Five stars. Awesome visual aid. Edited January 28, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Stejo]

Excellent work OP. The male bodies are so bad that it can't be by accident or incompetence. Obviously there's some reasoning behind the implementation. Whatever that reasoning was, it was wrong.

[ArmoredJuneBug]

What most of them say is that they wished there were a middle ground between body type II and type III and even though I'm a female with just 1 male toon, I agree. I'd definitely have chosen something in between 2 and 3 as well. 2 looks just too wimpy and like he has a shrunken body compared to his head, while 3 is way too bulky.

Oh god, this!

 

I almost always end up playing female characters in-game because almost no game succeeds in producing a male representation I'd feel comfortable playing.

 

Sure, body type 3 and 4 does well for their niches but I'd not want to play a Smuggler/IA or Sage/Inq with those body type. And body type 2 should be body type 1, it's certainly skinny enough to be the low end.

 

The OP definitely has my support though, the changes made to proportions of the male body look much, much better - at least in these static images.

[AJediKnight]

Oh god, this!

 

I almost always end up playing female characters in-game because almost no game succeeds in producing a male representation I'd feel comfortable playing.

 

Sure, body type 3 and 4 does well for their niches but I'd not want to play a Smuggler/IA or Sage/Inq with those body type. And body type 2 should be body type 1, it's certainly skinny enough to be the low end.

 

The OP definitely has my support though, the changes made to proportions of the male body look much, much better - at least in these static images.

 

It's because developers are obsessed with bodies that they don't themselves possess.

 

Male body types 1, 2 and 4 represent the developers as they actually look in real life (although 4 is too strong). Body type 3 is what they wished they looked like. When they designed the male body in TOR, they looked around the office for inspiration on the 'normal' bodies -- IE, scrawny, wimpy nerds -- and then looked at AHNOLD for inspiration on number 3.

Edited January 28, 2012 by AJediKnight

[PurpleMagick]

I'd personally rather them leave the male body as is and give me a breast slider for the females... maybe some jiggle physics while they are at it

 

hear hear!

[sbooksta]

With all due respect, I disagree on your issues with the male body types.

 

Those of us who take athletic performance and "bodybuilding" in general seriously fully understand anatomy and physiology, as well as the differences in body types in males. Those of us who take weight training seriously also understand the relatively wide variation in leverages in body types among men. The variations between the ectomorphic, endomorphic, and mezomorphic bodytypes alone shows a very wide diversity, and are only the extremes of body type classifications. People are not locked into one of the three classifications either (except at the swtor character select screen).

 

Some people perform better at squats or deadlifts as they have better leverage / a shorter range of motion due to shorter legs and/or arms, while others may greatly benefit from simple curls and such due to having long levers that exaggerate the tension placed on a muscle. In addition, the visual appearance of an additional 10 pounds of muscle on a tall long limbed man will be much less than 10 pounds added onto a much shorter stocky frame.

 

Overall, there is no perfect body type. There may be an average to be seen among certain races as for the general shape of a body, but trying to say one appearance or another is "correct" for a male figure is putting opinion before science.

 

This sounds very nice and scientific, but it doesn't change the fact that:

 

The current body type looks unnatural, goofy, and not heroic.

The changes proposed by TC are better in every way.

 

I don't care about what is technically correct or average. I care about what looks best.

 

Bioware should put TC's model in as the much-desired 2.5. I don't think you'll see anyone choosing type 2 over that.

[gibmachine]

Oh god, this!

 

I almost always end up playing female characters in-game because almost no game succeeds in producing a male representation I'd feel comfortable playing.

 

Sure, body type 3 and 4 does well for their niches but I'd not want to play a Smuggler/IA or Sage/Inq with those body type. And body type 2 should be body type 1, it's certainly skinny enough to be the low end.

 

The OP definitely has my support though, the changes made to proportions of the male body look much, much better - at least in these static images.

So much this. When I was creating my character I started from the bottom so body type came last. Since it was on 2 I assumed the next step would be a bit taller and have some more "meat" on it but only by a bit. Imagine my face when instead of athletic but fairly slim guy I got a Pumping Iron actor.

 

Since I'm not into that, I went with 2 for my SW but to be honest, as ridiculous type 3 looks (it would be fine if it wasn't for chest sticking out so much), I regret not picking it because of how weird endgame armor looks on type 2. It's simply too "wimpy" (even though there are some grade-A abs and chest hidden underneath) to support any kind of clothing other than light.

 

I really hope that they will at some point give us body type "2.5". Hell, I'd gladly pay money to customize my character if that was the case.

 

That said, impressive work OP. You definately got "touch" when it comes to the anathomy.

Edited January 30, 2012 by gibmachine

[Raigirin]

/signed and +1

 

OP your version is a much needed improvement.

[Vlacke]

Excellent idea and picture presentation from OP.

[TheTeaSpice]

Yes please and thank you for showing in detail how simple improvements go a long way. +1

 

TheTeaSpice

[Grayclaw]

I also like the changes proposed here, though I can live with how it is now. However I definitely want to put in my vote for seeing a male body type 2.5: tall but lean. I had an idea for an Agent who is a tall rangey fellow... and just couldn't do it with the body types offered.

 

Along the same lines I would also like to see a body type... er 4.5? for females. While I like the fact that they have a "fuller-figured" option, and I like the cute rounded face you can get with that type, she's too tall, imo. Being a female player myself, I would like to have the option of playing a shorter girl who also has some curves instead of just being a stick. (not saying, but just sayin, I might have played a female dwarf in other games....) =)

[Brambline]

First of all thank you so much everyone, for all the wonderful words of support or even just coming to discuss your views. More discussion = the more attention Bioware will pay.

 

Although there are a couple in the mix who would keep the male chars the way they are, it seems like the overwhelming majority do in fact feel bothered by this issue. So I'm very happy that I went to the trouble!

 

Wonder if Bioware actually even looked at this thread...

With the high volume of posts in this particular forum, I highly doubt it. But tonight I sent them a mega mail (and the link to this thread) when they asked as to send them feedback. Most likely, those thousands upon thousands of emails people will be sending in, will most likely be read through some community managers and not the devs themselves, but can't hurt to try .

 

Very interesting and very beautiful work you've done there.

 

I'm a designer and I'm always awed by the type of work the artists can do.

 

I think perhaps the reason the anatomy is a bit odd is because it is designed to be quite stylized like the cgi-wooden-puppet look we see in The Clone Wars movie and tv series, and I think somehow they didn't quite pull this off, some aspects are very realistic in style and some are quite cartoonized(not a word). It's not so bad that it really requires any fixing but a stronger move toward one side of the spectrum or the other might of been in order.

 

Again, cool post.

*waves to her fellow developer*

Yes PUPPET is the word! That's exactly what comes to mind from the male type II. Large head and dangly long legs. And I agree, it's just unsettling to see various styles, you're right on the dot when you say they need to settle on one. My vote goes for the more realistic style myself.

 

Since I'm not into that, I went with 2 for my SW but to be honest, as ridiculous type 3 looks (it would be fine if it wasn't for chest sticking out so much), I regret not picking it because of how weird endgame armor looks on type 2. It's simply too "wimpy" (even though there are some grade-A abs and chest hidden underneath) to support any kind of clothing other than light.

When making my male character I kept bouncing between type II and III as well. I deleted and remade the character a few times before I finally settled on II since my handsome bald dude is a bit gothy so better he more on the skinny than the chunky side. But yeah, I wish there was an option between those two. *cries*

 

 

Since this crotch rant business has generated so much positive reaction, I think I might as well make a mega rant on the lack of exploration in this game as well. It's always much easier and more efficient to get one's point across through visuals so will have to cook something up soon.

[simian_lad]

I'm so happy to see a lot of discussion about this. In a game that is otherwise quite visually polished and well art-directed, the male character models have been a glaring mistake to me since day one. The proportions are strange and cartoonish in a way that's off-putting -- I'm not asking for realism, I'm asking for something that's a little more aesthetically pleasant. If I'm going to inhabit this avatar for hours upon hours, I don't want to be constantly distracted by his oddly long legs or how strange his crotch looks (why do all the guys have cameltoe?).

 

Speaking as a character artist from the games industry, I don't think it would be too hard to make these kind of tweaks. It shouldn't require texture remapping, especially since there's tons of texture stretching going on already (another minor complaint.) Of course, the developers undoubtedly have a long queue of important stuff they want to work on, so it comes down to where this would sit among their priorities -- I just really hope they address it at *some* point.

 

So, yeah, kudos to the proposed redesign here.

[thewatcheruatu]

I've been carping about character proportions for a while now, and the illustration in the original post makes this point very well. I personally have a ton of issues with the type 3 female body type, as well, but that's a discussion for another day.

 

People have long complained that the type 2 male body type looks a little too puny. I can't even tell you how many requests I've seen for "something between 2 and 3". In particular, what people seem to notice is that the head looks too big, and that's directly attributable to to the strange proportions of the rest of the body (in particular, the short torso). Some of these issues are masked by bulky armor, but if your character wears a very form-fitting outfit, as my main does, you might always be bugged by this "big head" problem.