The Male Body - A humble suggestion on how to improve it

[Brambline]

I'm a female player and most of my character's are females. I have to say I am very happy with the female body type II and have used that for all my girlies. However today I made a male character (hey we ladies like to have something nice to look at too ya know) and quickly noticed that his body proportions looked very strange indeed. Usually females have long legs and short torsos, but in the human male should be the opposite: longer torsos with a lower laying waistline as well.

 

I decided to take a screenshot and play around with it in Photoshop, cutting and moving the parts around and this is what I came up with:

 

http://andrea.net/pics/human_male_body.jpg

 

1) Elongate the torso and shorten the legs

2) Move the waistline closer to the crotch

3) Widen the hips and rib cage

 

Since body Type II is the default body for the male when you first make one, and since it is meant to represent the most neutral type of body (versus the skinny type I, the bodybuilder Type III & the chunky Type IV), I think it's important that Type II would look relatively natural and allow players to have at least one choice of character that doesn't look weird to them.

 

I'm not even going to go into the "Man fuller chest" issue, but I've seen A LOT of men complaining about that. I don't find it that much of an issue myself, although filling out the male waistline from the side as well would do wonders to balance things out.

 

Any thoughts?

[LeComte]

Looks sound to me...not sure how easy to impliment it would be, but good suggestions none the less.

[AJ_SWTOR]

I agree, they do look pretty strange. And your versions are an improvement. The barrel chest on my Type III Jedi Knight is way too exaggerated as well. The head customizations are great. The body models are lacking.

[Seigyoku]

Gotta agree my smuggler does look like he's got his pants riding high or something (the butt-outline the game seems to do doesn't help)

 

My only other male toon is type 4, so, yeah X)

[Brambline]

I agree completely with the head vs body difference. I've been actually very happy with the head shapes and facial skins, I think they did a good job of balancing what things to modify and in which way. (the hairstyles are a bit lacking though)

 

But yeah, it's almost as if the body was modelled by a different artist altogether - which it most likely was - seeing as tasks can get pretty specified in a company like Bioware.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Brambline

[anwg]

I'm pretty sure it's the men that have longer limbs

[Foxtrotmikelima]

I think this needs the attention of the Devs. I have one Male Character (Main) and its this size. I have to use Robes and Cloaks to hide the obvious body issues.

[Brambline]

anwg: Obviously the average male arm is longer than the average female arm, however what I am talking about is the proportions within a single body. I googled body proportions and as you can see from these images, the overall height of a male torso is much longer than a woman's is, compared to their own legs. In all of these images, the females crotch rides at either the same height and sometimes even higher than the males, and yet her shoulders lay lower, squishing her torso down.

 

Basically, the problem with the SWTOR male is that his body is proportioned like a females.

 

 

http://img.cliparto.com/pic/xl/180008/3081489-human-body-proportions.jpg

 

http://www.odeany.com/fashion-illustration/images/8711_20_48-male-fashion-figure-drawing.jpg

 

http://www.howtodrawhowtopaint.com/inside_pictures/canon_rule_for_drawing_the_human_head_figure_proportions_drawing_how_to_draw_heads_and_portraits.jpg

[Dacterian]

Brambline, I know nothing will probably ever come of this, but I wanted to agree with you. Your mock-ups look awesome, by the way. But the thing that bothers me the most about the male graphic is the gap in the crotch. Girls have this, guys don't, especially strong and athletic guys, their thighs should be tight together until roughly mid-gricilis.

 

This has been really bothering me and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[Brambline]

Dacterian yeah I noticed this as well, and you're definitely right. If you look closely at the "improvement" version, I did round in that inner thigh a bit because it bothered me as well. I didn't want to go overboard though since this is a "neutral" body type and not the overly muscular kind.

[Felioats]

Brambline, I know nothing will probably ever come of this, but I wanted to agree with you. Your mock-ups look awesome, by the way.

 

^^^^^

[Ki_Draken_Magus]

I agree..the mock up you did looks much better. I wonder if most MMO's suffer from that problem?

 

I've been asked a number of times why my avatars are always female. My initial response has always been that I don't like the male body type because they move/run like they have a corncob shoved up their.....well you get th idea.

 

Now that I've seen the comparasion it makes more sense now.

[JaeOnasi]

I'm a tushy woman--I admire them greatly. I would appreciate some nice rounded buns on my men. Type 3 isn't too bad for that, however.

[ozirizo]

Drawing long legs is not a mistake, but a drawing technique that stylizes the body.

 

I'm pretty sure it is intended, as a reference you can see the official game art:

 

http://www.wikiswtor.com/images/c/c8/TrooperClassPage.png

 

Drawing long legs to stylize the human body is a popular choice, and since SWTOR is not going for realistic graphics, this style makes sense.

 

As a reference:

 

http://losanimesdemagrat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/sailor9.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4309/303286-22581-lelouch_super.jpg

Edited December 24, 2011 by ozirizo

[Glower]

Unfortunately, i never seen any post-release model changes in other MMO... It's too late!

[Laggmonster]

With all due respect, I disagree on your issues with the male body types.

 

Those of us who take athletic performance and "bodybuilding" in general seriously fully understand anatomy and physiology, as well as the differences in body types in males. Those of us who take weight training seriously also understand the relatively wide variation in leverages in body types among men. The variations between the ectomorphic, endomorphic, and mezomorphic bodytypes alone shows a very wide diversity, and are only the extremes of body type classifications. People are not locked into one of the three classifications either (except at the swtor character select screen).

 

Some people perform better at squats or deadlifts as they have better leverage / a shorter range of motion due to shorter legs and/or arms, while others may greatly benefit from simple curls and such due to having long levers that exaggerate the tension placed on a muscle. In addition, the visual appearance of an additional 10 pounds of muscle on a tall long limbed man will be much less than 10 pounds added onto a much shorter stocky frame.

 

Overall, there is no perfect body type. There may be an average to be seen among certain races as for the general shape of a body, but trying to say one appearance or another is "correct" for a male figure is putting opinion before science.

[Ashal]

Wow. I never noticed that before. But after looking at that pic the difference is glaring and now I can't unsee it. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

[Brambline]

Ki_Draken_Magus: *grins* Yep I know exactly what you mean by corn and uh... back side... :-). I wonder if it's because of the textures for the clothes, that they can't have the proportions between females and males too different because otherwise the texture for say a tunic would stretch out too much on the other one. And MMOs always seem to have better looking women than men, so perhaps they put higher priority on making the ladies look good... I really don't know.

 

ozirizo: Actually in the link to the game art you showed, the dude looks well proportioned (the concept artists are of course different from the modelers). What we see happening with our males is what you see in the second version:

 

http://andrea.net/pics/body_proportions.png

 

Torso all smushed up to the top!

 

As for the anime references, well when I think "star wars" I definitely do not think anime or weird cartoony proportions. I fully believe that they might have taken inspiration from that style, but if one were to ask which experience players expect when they buy this game, I'd be willing to bet my Christmas chocolates, that they come for the realism and immersive feel of living a star wars movie. Had this game been full blown anime, I highly doubt we'd see such success.

 

Laggmonster: Fair enough. But at the end of the day, all that matters is that it looks good and doesn't make you stop and scratch your head wondering, "Somethings screwy with this character, but I can't put my finger on what". And well, sorry but that's the reaction I got when I rolled my male. It's not like I went out of my way looking for an issue to complain about.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Brambline

[Brambline]

JaeOnasi: Here here! That is one scraggly bumbum on Type II :-(. If I wanted a scraggly butt I'd have made a Type I character!

[JaeOnasi]

JaeOnasi: Here here! That is one scraggly bumbum on Type II :-(. If I wanted a scraggly butt I'd have made a Type I character!

 

Hey, if we have to look at their backsides for 500 hours, I want them to look outstanding!

[HeLLMuTT]

With all due respect, I disagree on your issues with the male body types.

 

Those of us who take athletic performance and "bodybuilding" in general seriously fully understand anatomy and physiology, as well as the differences in body types in males. Those of us who take weight training seriously also understand the relatively wide variation in leverages in body types among men. The variations between the ectomorphic, endomorphic, and mezomorphic bodytypes alone shows a very wide diversity, and are only the extremes of body type classifications. People are not locked into one of the three classifications either (except at the swtor character select screen).

 

Some people perform better at squats or deadlifts as they have better leverage / a shorter range of motion due to shorter legs and/or arms, while others may greatly benefit from simple curls and such due to having long levers that exaggerate the tension placed on a muscle. In addition, the visual appearance of an additional 10 pounds of muscle on a tall long limbed man will be much less than 10 pounds added onto a much shorter stocky frame.

 

Overall, there is no perfect body type. There may be an average to be seen among certain races as for the general shape of a body, but trying to say one appearance or another is "correct" for a male figure is putting opinion before science.

 

 

That's fascinating stuff you c&p'd there but how does that relate to this video games male characters looking odd?...

[Gestas]

I'm pretty sure it's the men that have longer limbs

 

You should try looking at the pictures.

[_Zefire_]

I'm a female player and most of my character's are females. I have to say I am very happy with the female body type II and have used that for all my girlies. However today I made a male character (hey we ladies like to have something nice to look at too ya know) and quickly noticed that his body proportions looked very strange indeed. Usually females have long legs and short torsos, but in the human male should be the opposite: longer torsos with a lower laying waistline as well.

 

I decided to take a screenshot and play around with it in Photoshop, cutting and moving the parts around and this is what I came up with:

 

http://andrea.net/pics/human_male_body.jpg

 

1) Elongate the torso and shorten the legs

2) Move the waistline closer to the crotch

3) Widen the hips and rib cage

 

Since body Type II is the default body for the male when you first make one, and since it is meant to represent the most neutral type of body (versus the skinny type I, the bodybuilder Type III & the chunky Type IV), I think it's important that Type II would look relatively natural and allow players to have at least one choice of character that doesn't look weird to them.

 

I'm not even going to go into the "Man fuller chest" issue, but I've seen A LOT of men complaining about that. I don't find it that much of an issue myself, although filling out the male waistline from the side as well would do wonders to balance things out.

 

Any thoughts?

 

What to say a user and he does better job than bioware's developers

I wonder who are these guys that have made this game with so many flaws.

I think ill have to stop reading post cause all i get is more and more upset about this game.

Good luck bioware thanks for your dissapointment.

[Gestas]

Overall, there is no perfect body type. There may be an average to be seen among certain races as for the general shape of a body, but trying to say one appearance or another is "correct" for a male figure is putting opinion before science.

 

I think we're talking aesthetics here though.

 

To me, the modified models presented in this thread look better. That's what matters.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Gestas

[thoddiver]

You know I hadn't noticed this until you pointed it out. But you're right. Also what about the hands? They look a bit odd. Maybe shortening the fingers a little or something of the sort. I don't know, just doesn't look right.

 

 

 

 

----- Ranting from here on out, so ignore it >< ------

 

 

So here we go. A player who's made a suggestion that was thought out, and put a lot of themselves on the line. The community is responding greatly, lots of points pointed out, folks speaking their minds. You get the impression after reading this that there's a room full of people, drinking coffee, sipping on tea, discussing the matters of the human body.

 

Yet... no response from the world of the devs. Rather they would spend time disciplining the masses, then take the time to say "wow, great suggestion. I'll take it up the chain. Thanks for being a part of our community and helping it grow!"

 

+1 for the OP.