Zoom_VI Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) The only problem I have with this... is that there is a skew toward certain classes which prevents people from even competing in ranked unless they play PT/VG, JG/GD, or OP/SC. 3 of the four spots on almost every team will have those three AC's, which leaves one spot for another DPS. You put equal skilled team with a merc healer or a sin tank against one with Op/jug and the Op/Jug team wins 100% just based on class imbalance. Are you talking about group or solo? In group at least Juggs and Ops are only used as tank and heal, and I'm pretty sure that not every team is running double powerech for dps. Particularly given that Pyro is a terrible hardswitcher given how much it projects, and AP is a one trick pony. I haven't had any experience with this server yet but on jung ma at least, the most successful teams where running marauders, PT, occasional assassins, snipers, and sorcs of either dps spec. Really most of the cookie-cutter is just player perception, there are way more viable setups than most people will lead you to believe. Edited October 14, 2014 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindol Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 The only problem I have with this... is that there is a skew toward certain classes which prevents people from even competing in ranked unless they play PT/VG, JG/GD, or OP/SC. 3 of the four spots on almost every team will have those three AC's, which leaves one spot for another DPS. You put equal skilled team with a merc healer or a sin tank against one with Op/jug and the Op/Jug team wins 100% just based on class imbalance. So what happens, everyone rolls one of the FOTM classes to be competitive... in which case you aren't really getting better, you are picking an easier class to play. You're not wrong. There's nothing more annoying than having to meet fire with fire because there isn't any water to throw on those flames. (That was a subtle joke about OP double PT/VG rated teams.) And I agree with you 100%. One of the reasons I stopped doing ranked competitively was because I wanted to play the class that I wanted to play. I was tired of maintaining a crap load of characters to have in the event that the meta shifted and I needed to tank on a Vanguard or a Powertech instead of my Guardian or Juggernaut. That crap is definitely annoying. But from what I'm told is that this really isn't the case on The Ebon Hawk and for the most part people are in queue with a lot of different comps. If anyone on The Ebon Hawk if running a FOTM double PT/VG comp, they're frackin' lamesauce. VG/PT has always been a bit too easy to play and has always been really successful in PvP, particularly ranked. They bring a lot to the table which makes them a great option as a DPS for any ranked team. Running two of them, however, is simply cheese (and I mean moldy cheese). The only way I would accept some team running such a comp is that if they were genuinely playing their preferred class and that's just what they enjoy playing. I admit, I play with a VG DPS pretty much every time I queue, but it's not my fault. Grizz likes his VG, he doesn't play it because he wants to be OP l33t, he's played it since day one and it's his favorite toon. Things like this I can appreciate and accept. But I on the other hand own a FOTM DPS VG that I leveled solely for the purpose of trolling people -and- because it's my ranged tank if I ever need/want it. Anyways, back on point. I wouldn't sweat the FOTM fanboys that think they are good because they went the easiest route and followed the meta. But on the flip side, don't discredit them too much, because there is a lot to be said about players that can switch from class to class and continue to wreak havoc. Granted, VG/PT isn't a very good example of this because most everyone knows it's loleasy to put up good DPS on a VG/PT without trying too hard. But back to the first point, yes, you're right. Meta comps are annoying, but like I said, I'm being told that isn't an issue on this server. And to anyone that is running a meta comp, well, I'm sure I can wrangle up some old friends to give them a taste of their own medicine (but that usually just results in the team that gets beaten no longer jumping in the ranked queue). At the end of the day, I'd say go for it and don't worry about losing. If you're playing ranked you should be playing to increase your skill level and you can do that no matter what comp you run and regardless of what comp you face. There will always be certain comps that other comps will struggle against. That's just the nature of the game. It's just like how a Guardian Tank will never beat a Sage Healer in a 1v1. Sometimes things just aren't going to work out for you and that's not because of meta or class imbalance, it's because of in-game class and PvP mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadecounty Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 You guys are a little behind on FOTM, PT/VG is more like FOAT (all time), but the new class everyone's jumping on is balance/madness shadow/sin, take the positives of PT/VG (insane damage with good burst potential), add a better AOE skill in Death Field/Force in Balance that hits insanely hard on crits (6-7k+), is instant and has insane range, remove all resource management issues, and add in 2 mez options including 1 that is instant and adds a 2 second stun if broken early. I think the only area Shadow/Sin lags behind is in cooldowns, but its not by a ton, and their passive healing actually puts them about on par in drawn out fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDumbViking Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Are you talking about group or solo? In group at least Juggs and Ops are only used as tank and heal, and I'm pretty sure that not every team is running double powerech for dps. Particularly given that Pyro is a terrible hardswitcher given how much it projects, and AP is a one trick pony. I haven't had any experience with this server yet but on jung ma at least, the most successful teams where running marauders, PT, occasional assassins, snipers, and sorcs of either dps spec. Really most of the cookie-cutter is just player perception, there are way more viable setups than most people will lead you to believe. To be honest, both. Jugg/PT or Grd/VG are like 2/3 of the solo ranked queue in the matches I've played. The last match I played was me (Sage) with two VG's and a Guardian, versus 1 PT, 2 Vengence Juggs, and a Sin. And I would say that is pretty average.... and obnoxious. Having 2 dps with taunts can be huge in a 4v4 situation, not to mention the fact that those classes tend to be tankier and have much better survivability as well as being uninterruptible with instant cast burst skills. Don't get me wrong, I'm running either a sage or a merc... and I dgaf... but finding 3 other people that don't care about loosing to 2 pt's, an Op healer, and a guardian tank... not so easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDumbViking Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 You guys are a little behind on FOTM, PT/VG is more like FOAT (all time), but the new class everyone's jumping on is balance/madness shadow/sin, take the positives of PT/VG (insane damage with good burst potential), add a better AOE skill in Death Field/Force in Balance that hits insanely hard on crits (6-7k+), is instant and has insane range, remove all resource management issues, and add in 2 mez options including 1 that is instant and adds a 2 second stun if broken early. I think the only area Shadow/Sin lags behind is in cooldowns, but its not by a ton, and their passive healing actually puts them about on par in drawn out fights. I see more of them, but they are still squishier and don't have the aoe mez. but yes, again, tank classes all fare much better in 4's because of the bandbox nature of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Meh, it is an undeniable fact that 4 v 4 improves your skills as a player significantly more than 8 v 8. Easy, big fella, don't blow a gasket. I'm going to explain to you why. In 4 v 4, it's way more evident if you have a scrub player on your team. You will be at a significant disadvantage because the lacking player will get picked up and exploited much quicker than he or she would in 8 v 8. Furthermore, 4 v 4 is purely about your skill with your class. Your ability to manage your cool downs and optimally execute your rotation and if necessary, deviate from your rotation to help in other areas if necessary. Such as peeling for your healer or CC'ing someone so you can get back to your primary objective. In 8 v 8, it's easier to get carried for one. So you may not get better at all. There's also potential that you could be the guy that captures the node and guards it and never has anyone pay you a visit. Which means you performed an important role in the match, but you literally got no better for doing it. 8 v 8 is also widely objective based. So you could literally spend an entire Huttball setting up a chain and passing player to player, not really getting better at PvP so to speak. You still might get pawned by the majority of the PvP community. What John was saying is that if you want something that is challenging, and being challenged is fun to you, then 4 v 4 is much more viable at an individual level when it comes to increasing your individual skill at playing your class and performing your role in a PvP environment. So yeah, 4 v 4 > 8 v 8 when it comes to improving your PvP skills. So, I am going to explain to you, big fella, and, don't blow a gasket, why 4 vs 4 is flawed just as you are pointing out how 8 vs 8 matches are flawed... In a 4 vs 4 match, it is way easier to shut down 1 or two players depending on what composition your 4 man team is. Once that is accomplished you win. Depending on the other team's comp, that can be easier to accomplish also. It is undeniable that certain classes have huge advantages in a small 4 vs 4 match. The good thing about an 8 vs 8 match is, if you tunnel 1-2 players, you risk losing the match. Why? Because that leaves the team other players who can run objectives. IE: carry the ball in Huttball, cap a node in the other warzones, etc. In an 8 vs 8 warzone, all the classes have strengths and weaknesses, that are not magnified by the flaws that present themselves in a 4 vs 4 match. If you can sit here and type that every class is fairly equal in 4 vs 4 matches you are only showing that you are either ignorant or a liar. What I can do though, is type here with truthiness that every class can find some success in a 8 vs 8 match. To say that running a 4 vs 4 deathmatch shows more skill is totally false, because first of all, there are classes that have huge advantages in this setup. Period. Big fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindol Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Whoa ho! You're coming at me all wrong there playa. But I'll forgive you this time and since you seem to be a little salty, let me offer you some sugar. I wasn't dogging 8 v 8. I was just filling you in on one simple point, 4 v 4 makes you a better individual player than 8 v 8 when it comes to PvP (that's player versus another player) combat. I don't disagree with anything you said in your post, but it's not on point with what we're talking about. It sounds to me like you're already trying to justify why you're not going to do ranked when you hit 55 and you haven't even tried it yet. This is not a good approach, but to each his own. 8 v 8 is widely objective based and very rarely do people spend any amount of time "tunneling" anyone in War Zones. Well, not if they want to win at least. Your post up there is kind of full of hypothetical situations that 'could' happen in 8 v 8, but are definitely 'once in a blue moon' status. Don't be so defensive mang. You came back with hot fire when I was just giving you some information to back up something that John said. Sometimes you have to realize who you're talking to before you start barking. I'm not trying to put you back on guard again, just letting you know that I appreciate a little bit of forum etiquette. I mean, unless you're trolling me, and if that's the case. Well played, because I didn't pick up on it. But back to the point. 4 v 4 is an 'arena' and it showcases a players skills with their individual class far more than 8 v 8. 8 v 8 is a 'war zone' and it show cases a players ability to work with a large team to accomplish objectives. Sure there are elements of 4 v 4 that overlap to 8 v 8, but the scale at which the emphasis is place on an individual player and his or her particular skill is far diminished compared to 4 v 4. K? We good now? /hugs and kisses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnatters Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) This argument is daft, you can't really compare the two, it's objectives vs. team death matching. Entirely different skill sets. Comparing regs to ranked 4s, is also daft. You can't control what the other half of the ops frame is doing, and the same can be said for any pre made on the other side. It's not even about backpacking better than the other team, because there is no measure for how much better one team's pugs are than the other's. John's point comes down to the fact that you're only really going to improve as a player by playing in a competitive environment, and at the moment, that is presented to us as 4s. 8 v 8s aren't an option anymore, so if you want to play competitively, 4s is all you've got. Take it or leave it, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're playing competitively by playing regs. Edited October 14, 2014 by johnatters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindol Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 This argument is daft, you can't really compare the two, it's objectives vs. team death matching. Entirely different skill sets. Comparing regs to ranked 4s, is also daft. You can't control what the other half of the ops frame is doing, and the same can be said for any pre made on the other side. It's not even about backpacking better than the other team, because there is no measure for how much better one team's pugs are than the other's. John's point comes down to the fact that you're only really going to improve as a player by playing in a competitive environment, and at the moment, that is presented to us as 4s. 8 v 8s aren't an option anymore, so if you want to play competitively, 4s is all you've got. Take it or leave it, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're playing competitively by playing regs. ^ This. Much better put. But you better not call my post daft again!! WHAT?! SAY SOMETHING?! Don't make me put on my forum PVP gear homie!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnatters Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I will point out that I'm not "all aboard the 4s train" though, it shuts out entire specs from gameplay, leaving some only really viable in regs, which is asinine. Here's to 3.0 "balancing" some of that out, or I'll see you all in WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I will point out that I'm not "all aboard the 4s train" though, it shuts out entire specs from gameplay, leaving some only really viable in regs, which is asinine. Here's to 3.0 "balancing" some of that out, or I'll see you all in WoW. This is my point in a nutshell. I have to disagree that 4 vs 4 is the only way to play competitively. it just so happens that 4 vs 4 is the given rankings but that doesn't mean it is the only aspect in the game considering pvp that is competitive. Also, as for me "convincing myself" that i won't try ranked when I get to 55, I don't need to convince myself of something I already know. I don't like 4 vs 4 more than 8 vs 8. It has nothing to do with the "big bad boogeymen" in 4 vs 4 ranked death matches that ride all day destroying anyone lesser than them, humiliating them to feel like the nubs they are in PVP. No, I just don't find the 4 vs 4 matches as fun. That doesn't mean I won't do ranked. It also doesn't mean I am bad at 4 vs 4 matches. No correlation there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azjari Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I've never seen Godzilla. That being said, it's a poorly made movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADMCD Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I like Huttball. There are no Huttball matches in ranked. There are barely any in unranked. When Huttball is ranked, I'll solo queue ranked all day in Huttball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azjari Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The salt is strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzMeshurik Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The salt is strong. o 4qorqorqpor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenyu Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 On weekdays my team will be queueing almost every day at 10:00 PM onwards. (Timezones and Schedule restrictions.) On the weekends, we'll be queueing as much as we can with all the hours we've got. If you'd like to plan some matches, contact me or Varaxxis in-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScout Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 More cowbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I (Crinntar) would like to find a pub team to run with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfraredGamer Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Sorry, Regulators only does in house and Guild kicks those who want to play against other teams (guess it would hurt their image if they lost to others) Edited October 16, 2014 by InfraredGamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDumbViking Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Sorry, Regulators only does in house and Guild kicks those who want to play against other teams (guess it would hurt their image if they lost to others) You're awesome... Friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easpeak Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I (Crinntar) would like to find a pub team to run with. Tried to talk to you in game, but you ignored me. GG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Tried to talk to you in game, but you ignored me. GG? I remember seeing your name in a few warzones but I do not recall you ever saying anything to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Tried to talk to you in game, but you ignored me. GG? Oh god, super vg incoming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindol Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 oh god, super vg incoming? moar vg! Moar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDumbViking Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) moar vg! Moar! Just wait until mine hits 55... #superlulzyezmodekillthingspewpewnotalentrequired Edited October 16, 2014 by BigDumbViking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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