Hybrids and Disciplines: I think they're doing it wrong

[CrutchCricket]

Alright so this is a discussion about skill trees from a guy who knows dick about skill trees. So bear with me.

 

As I understand it hybrids are a problem because the game's not designed for them (which I still maintain is a mistake but what's done is done) and the current mechanics to prevent them based on scarcity of points are inadequate as level caps are added and more points are therefore available. So in a game that wants you to overspecialize in one area, becoming too good in multiple areas can be problematic. Fine.

 

This new Disciplines system intends to solve the problem by forcing you in one area, automatically giving you all associated abilities at an appropriate level and allowing you to pick random passives in its utility section. And this is the part I think is backwards.

 

Let's use the sorcerer as example as this seems to be the most popular (or infamous) hybrid-ready class. Currently in the heal tree you have Resurgence, which heals a small amount instantly and a bit more over time. Fairy useless by itself I've found, especially in a heated fight. But where it really shines is when bolstered by its associated passive Force Bending which gives you some pretty sweet buffs to your other heals. All of a sudden, if you cast Resurgence beforehand you can skyrocket in heals with a simple Dark Infusion or Dark Heal. And that alone has provided enough heals for my story/planetary content. On the DPS side you have Chain Lightning and Death Field which are pretty good AOE DPS abilities but again really shine only when their helper passives are also taken (Lightning Swarm/Storm and Deathmark, Creeping Death, Devour respectively)

 

Where I'm going with this: It appears that the passives are what really skyrocket output thus it's the passives that should be restricted to one tree, not the abilities.

 

I run a hybrid but I don't anally try to break the game in PVP because I couldn't care less about PVP. My sorc's pretty far up the heal tree (at least as far as the Innervate level) but also has Death Field and Chain Lighting. This has made it pretty fun to level solo PVE as a good mix of damage (and good AOEs for trash mobs) and healing but I doubt I would break PVP if I tried it as even on hardier single target elites I don't feel like anything special. And the reason for that is I couldn't take the passives that really make Chain Lightning and Death Field awesome. With more points I might but Disciplines made that moot.

 

Now what if Disciplines gave me the choice to pick all those abilities again but I could only gain the passives that boost them (Force Bending for example) by committing to the appropriate tree? I'd be pretty much where I am now, regardless of how many more levels they add. I have my range of abilities that allow me a fair amount of leeway in doing what I want but I can't break the game by being good at everything. Win-win right?

 

As for concerns of being underpowered for endgame and getting *****ed at by my group etc... who cares? If there's one thing you can do in games and on the internet it's "doing it wrong" and/or being a *******. Forcing people out of "gimping themselves" isn't going to make them better players. If you're being dumb in gameplay or in attitude you just get booted, cussed at, /ignored or all of the above. And if you're consistently encountering that or dying/taking forever to do endgame that's far more of an incentive to change the way you play then the game forcing you to. For the record none of my hybrids ever drew the ire of my groupmates even though their builds would likely make some people on here want to burn me at the stake.

 

tl;dr OP hybrids seem to be in the passives and Disciplines should restrict those instead, thus still allowing for "just for fun" hybrids. Such hybrids while possibly "underpowered" seem to be built by people just wanting to do their own thing (which is what I gather the majority of people in favor of hybridization on here want it for), not break the game and therefore shouldn't matter to "uber pros" one way or another.

[LordArtemis]

I would have had clear dps/heal/tank choices for each AC. Unfortunately they chose to stick to the current setup.

[TUXs]

Oh well...they did it the way they did it and you're going to have to live with it.

[LordArtemis]

Oh well...they did it the way they did it and you're going to have to live with it.

 

And I will. I have this long. A few disappointments, but I think this is a good move, and I am enthused at the idea that my AC may now feel like a real class to me.

 

And THAT is a big plus in my book.

[TUXs]

And I will. I have this long. A few disappointments, but I think this is a good move, and I am enthused at the idea that my AC may now feel like a real class to me.

 

And THAT is a big plus in my book.

Absolutely!

 

I'm all for more player choices, but this was a move that needed to happen to bring classes closer to balance with each other - not just for PvP, mostly for PvE.

 

My fear was that they'd dumb down our skills - that doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm thrilled!

[Andrellma]

In my opinion, the biggest problem with hybrids is that they absolutely ruined the levelling experience for healers and tanks. By forcing their key abilities higher into their respective trees, healers and tanks were little more than very bad dps until about the mid 30's.

[LordArtemis]

Absolutely!

 

I'm all for more player choices, but this was a move that needed to happen to bring classes closer to balance with each other - not just for PvP, mostly for PvE.

 

My fear was that they'd dumb down our skills - that doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm thrilled!

 

Yea, so far the news has been good to great that I could see. Some concerns about dots and cleanse, but otherwise all good news.

[CrutchCricket]

Oh well...they did it the way they did it and you're going to have to live with it.

 

Actually I probably won't. I can finally get at all the stories without the extra hassles and that's primarily why I'm here. If December rolls around and I don't like what I see I'll be gone by New Year's.

 

No, you can't have my stuff.

 

In all seriousness, there are plenty of other things they could've done that wouldn't have been so heavy handed. Flashy new UI and simplification aside, a simple lateral restriction of points would've eliminated all "good at everything" possibilities right off the bat, even if they raise your points to over 9000.

 

Oh well. Maybe they'll see the light and do another change by 4 or 5.0. And add all new fully voiced class stories, change game engine etc. while they're at it as well.

Edited October 9, 2014 by CrutchCricket

[CrutchCricket]

In my opinion, the biggest problem with hybrids is that they absolutely ruined the levelling experience for healers and tanks. By forcing their key abilities higher into their respective trees, healers and tanks were little more than very bad dps until about the mid 30's.

 

This would be alleviated with locked out passives.

[TUXs]

Actually I probably won't. I can finally get at all the stories without the extra hassles and that's primarily why I'm here. If December rolls around and I don't like what I see I'll be gone by New Year's.

 

No, you can't have my stuff.

 

In all seriousness, there are plenty of other things they could've done that wouldn't have been so heavy handed. Flashy new UI and simplification aside, a simple lateral restriction of points would've eliminated all "good at everything" possibilities right off the bat, even if they raise your points to over 9000.

 

Oh well. Maybe they'll see the light and do another change by 4 or 5.0. And add all new fully voiced class stories, change game engine etc. while they're at it as well.

A few things at least?!

 

I hope that after you try it, you still feel you have enough versatility that you keep playing. Thank you for at least trying it before running off. I'm not glad they did this because it bothers you, but I am glad they did this because I think skills were largely unmanageable as of late.

[Ryuku-sama]

This would be alleviated with locked out passives.

 

Invincible.

Riot Gas.

TKW.

FiB.

Storm.

Deadly Saber (now nerfed)

PFT (now nerfed)

Those abilities are used to create OP hybrids in PvP. So what you're saying is completely false.

[Sorwen]

This would be alleviated with locked out passives.

It also could have been alleviated by making actual changes instead of doing mostly redistribution. All the equipment effect at the time before 55 dropped down a few points and all the new was added slightly over the old value. Then in the tree they cause a redistribution of points and cost changes with only minor power changes. They made a 5 level increase into more of like a 2.

 

Equipment will likely see the same shuffle as before, but the new AC system will mean that power increases can be mostly meaningless without the effort it took before.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Sorwen

[Delta_V]

Just a clarification:

 

The "utility" talents do not seem to be directly related to healing or dps output. They're more of the "reduce AOE damage by 30%" or "adds a root to a certain ability" or the new "certain abilities can be cast while moving" variety.

 

All of the "increase the healing of Ability X" or "Ability X can reset the cooldown of Ability Y" type talents that increase your dps or healing seem to have been baked into their respective Disciplines.

[Heat-Wave]

Alright so this is a discussion about skill trees from a guy who knows dick about skill trees. So bear with me.

 

Why would someone who admits to not knowing anything about a subject proceed to write so much about said subject?

 

I run a hybrid but I don't anally try to break the game in PVP because I couldn't care less about PVP.

 

It really doesn't matter what you pick for PvE, almost anything is fine, this game has been nerfed to the point of not mattering in PvE.

 

Where it does matter is PvP, and while you say you don't care, it matters to other people.

 

Class balance is a mess, this is Bioware's attempt to address that. Until you care about PvP, you won't understand and thus your opinion doesn't mean much because you aren't focused on the area that matters.

[Raansu]

tl;dr OP hybrids seem to be in the passives and Disciplines should restrict those instead, thus still allowing for "just for fun" hybrids. Such hybrids while possibly "underpowered" seem to be built by people just wanting to do their own thing (which is what I gather the majority of people in favor of hybridization on here want it for), not break the game and therefore shouldn't matter to "uber pros" one way or another.

 

Games like swtor and WoW (before the redesign) are designed in a way that players go up to the capstone of their selected tree and spend spare points in the off trees. Each tree is designed to play a specific role or playstyle. Hybrids were NEVER intended to function, let alone even exist, but developers do not have the time that players have to experiment with hybrids.

 

There is a reason why prior to WoW's current system that you were locked to a single skill tree until capstone. It forced you to go all the way up the tree and you were not allowed to put points into another tree till you reached the final tier of the tree. Afterwards WoW redesigned their skill system to what it is now where you select one talent out of 3 choices per tier based on your level. swtors new system is kind of similar to it but not quite the same, but the general concept is the same. Its to remove hybrids and make development and balancing easier, especially during a level cap increase.

 

Hybrids were never intended to work. Sorry if you liked them, I personally never understood why people played hybrids outside of the obvious broken ones that would make a class OP. Any other situation hybrids generally made you worse. Why you would willingly choose to be gimped is beyond me.

 

I would have had clear dps/heal/tank choices for each AC. Unfortunately they chose to stick to the current setup.

 

To clarify, you want each AC to have a tank/heal/dps spec? That seems like a really bad idea to me. How would a guardian even play a heal spec? Or a shadow? Or a marauder? A PT I could maybe see pulling it off I guess, but half the AC's wouldn't make any sense with a heal or even a tank spec.

 

What exactly is your issue with the current setup? I see nothing wrong with it.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Raansu

[Costello]

It does feel like they are dumbing the game down.

 

Something that happened a long ago in a Star Wars MMO, there they called it the NGE here we get 3.0. Things are too hard to balance so they take away any option to mix and match. It feels like they really want to force everyone down a cookie cutter template while other games are offering ever more options.

 

I get for PvP there has to be balance, but then are you going to balance all the gear so everyone has all equal equipment cause the stat bonuses are different for different items. Then balance every class so they all have the same number and range of single target attacks, aoe, stuns and heals.

 

At what point is perceived inbalance less damaging to the game than having everyone playing the same bland character that cycle through the same rotation with no option to add your own play style into the mix.

[TUXs]

It does feel like they are dumbing the game down.

Did you see the stream? That was my fear as well...I was afraid I'd see like 4 buttons on Eric's screen that resembled a controller set-up...after seeing the stream, it looks like the bulk of what we currently have will remain intact.

[azudelphi]

Did you see the stream? That was my fear as well...I was afraid I'd see like 4 buttons on Eric's screen that resembled a controller set-up...after seeing the stream, it looks like the bulk of what we currently have will remain intact.

 

Agreed.

 

They nuked hybrids away. All other complexity is still intact.

 

I mean, take an assault commando for example. You do your way up the skill tree, where your only choices outside the main rotation abilities are things to the effect of, "Gain defense and stealth detection" or "Gain 1% endurance". I'd gladly give up that "choice" if it means that the Disciplines and Utilities provide situational benefits and general balance to dps, hps, and tps.

Edited October 9, 2014 by azudelphi

[Sorwen]

It does feel like they are dumbing the game down.

 

Something that happened a long ago in a Star Wars MMO, there they called it the NGE here we get 3.0. Things are too hard to balance so they take away any option to mix and match. It feels like they really want to force everyone down a cookie cutter template while other games are offering ever more options.

Totally agree. The tree systems came into affect for that very reason. It isn't like balance was perfect and easy in MMOs when the system didn't even exist.

 

I get for PvP there has to be balance, but then are you going to balance all the gear so everyone has all equal equipment cause the stat bonuses are different for different items. Then balance every class so they all have the same number and range of single target attacks, aoe, stuns and heals.

That is what the Warzone buff was for. Since I don't like PvP I'm not sure how effective it was. Sadly, just about everything pushed stems from PvP by actions even if they give words to the contrary.

 

At what point is perceived inbalance less damaging to the game than having everyone playing the same bland character that cycle through the same rotation with no option to add your own play style into the mix.

Seemingly at whatever point PvP is happy.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Sorwen

[Technohic]

I hope they up the streams to more than just once a week to start showing the other classes disciplines so we can lay some speculation to rest. Either way; it is what it is and its coming, so I'm not sure what the debate is about when so far, we have only seen 1/8th of the ACs. They should really speed it up as we do not have 8 weeks until this things is tentative to launch.

 

Not to mention; I would like to see the changes to armor sets and combat changes they mentioned as it all will be related to the classes and how we all play.

[Raansu]

It does feel like they are dumbing the game down.

 

Something that happened a long ago in a Star Wars MMO, there they called it the NGE here we get 3.0. Things are too hard to balance so they take away any option to mix and match. It feels like they really want to force everyone down a cookie cutter template while other games are offering ever more options.

 

I get for PvP there has to be balance, but then are you going to balance all the gear so everyone has all equal equipment cause the stat bonuses are different for different items. Then balance every class so they all have the same number and range of single target attacks, aoe, stuns and heals.

 

At what point is perceived inbalance less damaging to the game than having everyone playing the same bland character that cycle through the same rotation with no option to add your own play style into the mix.

 

Its really not dumbing down. Its essentially the same as what we have now but choosing your utilities instead of skill points. They are just removing hybrids which is a GOOD thing.

[Technohic]

FYI; they have always eliminated hybrids since the games launch. The good thing here is now people that are not running hybrids will not get a skill nerfed due to its unfortunate unintended synergy. or have their tree rearranged for something that they were not even using.

 

 

Also; balance IS important for PvE as well. Talk to anyone running the not so optimal class for their role who gets turned out of groups. It matters.

[Halinalle]

Why hybrids are popular?

 

Healer/DPS:

- not good at healing

- not good at dps

- only decent in both

 

Tank/DPS:

- not good at tanking

- not good at dps

- only decent in dps

 

Healer/tank:

- "Oh yeah, I can solo this!"?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Halinalle

[MaximusRex]

Where I'm going with this: It appears that the passives are what really skyrocket output thus it's the passives that should be restricted to one tree, not the abilities.

 

The passives are restricted, the bonuses you put point into have tree specific effects. Using your Sorcerer example, there is a bonus that lets you cast a spell when moving, what spell that is will depend on what tree you are specializing into.

 

The new system is better for players who don't want to have to wait to be high level to do their chosen role well. Under the current system you can't do you chosen job well because they have to set needed abilities so far up the tree to keep them out of reach of hybrids, it is especially bad for tanks who can't do their jobs very effectively until into their 30's, and are still missing out on powerful tanking abilities until as late as 45.

[CrutchCricket]

Invincible.

Riot Gas.

TKW.

FiB.

Storm.

Deadly Saber (now nerfed)

PFT (now nerfed)

Those abilities are used to create OP hybrids in PvP. So what you're saying is completely false.

Abilities that are not directly boosted by passives but can still create imbalance can be tweaked so they are enhanced by locked passives.

 

Invincible for example can be reduced to 20% DR in general and have a passive that bumps it up to 40% but is only available if committed to that specific tree. Percentages are examples only.

 

It's much easier to test a handful of abilities taken together than it is to account for countless other passive boosts possibly stacking or synergizing too well together.

 

Why would someone who admits to not knowing anything about a subject proceed to write so much about said subject?

Because said remark was flippant and not to be taken literally?

 

Class balance is a mess, this is Bioware's attempt to address that. Until you care about PvP, you won't understand and thus your opinion doesn't mean much because you aren't focused on the area that matters.

I don't need to care about something to understand it. I may not mine all the specifics but I understand what the PVP complaints were. And this attempt, like I said seems backwards to me and needlessly impacts a fraction that wasn't an issue.

 

Games like swtor and WoW (before the redesign) are designed in a way that players go up to the capstone of their selected tree and spend spare points in the off trees. Each tree is designed to play a specific role or playstyle. Hybrids were NEVER intended to function, let alone even exist, but developers do not have the time that players have to experiment with hybrids.

I fundamentally disagree with this mindset from the start and have yet to hear a good reason for it.

 

"Because WoW did it" is not a good reason.

 

I acknowledge that's the way the game is but I see no objective reason it had to be this way.

 

Why hybrids are popular?

 

Healer/DPS:

- not good at healing

- not good at dps

- only decent in both

 

Tank/DPS:

- not good at tanking

- not good at dps

- only decent in dps

"Decent in both" got me through four classes just fine and will get me through the other four as well. It is fun and since it works it gives the impression of versatility and being able to handle changing circumstances without needing to crunch math and respec. As a heal/DPS I could dish out decent damage but if things started going wrong I had the heals to keep from dying.