Old Ops in 3.0

[ArcadioBuenida]

Just wondering if EV, KP, and EC are staying level 50 and TFB, SnV, and the Oricon ops are staying 55, or can we expecting any kind of scaling this time around?

[Ryuku-sama]

Why would there be scaling???? Pre Makeb ops are lvl 50 because they were done before Makeb, Post Makeb ops are 55 because Makeb gets you to 55... The lvl can be somewhat a way to show the chronological progression of the game. If they were to scale them up, how would one be able to follow the story and play the Classic ops when they are meant to be played (without grossly overleveling the subsequent content)... For sake of immersion, logic and chronological progression, ops should be left at the level they currently are!!

[Jaxtes]

TfB was scaled because SnV would have been the only lvl 55 ops at the beginning. The new expansion is already coming with 2 lvl 60 ops so no need to scale them.

Besides people who don't buy the new expansion are stuck at lvl 55 they need some content too.

[Vashforth]

If they are going to scale up any Ops it should be DF/DP.

[Denerio]

Hopefully the old OPS will remain the current level and not scale.

[Drockter]

I hope the existing ops are left as is (SM/M/NiM), and the new ops are scaled to 60.

[Rithoma]

Why would there be scaling???? Pre Makeb ops are lvl 50 because they were done before Makeb, Post Makeb ops are 55 because Makeb gets you to 55... The lvl can be somewhat a way to show the chronological progression of the game. If they were to scale them up, how would one be able to follow the story and play the Classic ops when they are meant to be played (without grossly overleveling the subsequent content)... For sake of immersion, logic and chronological progression, ops should be left at the level they currently are!!

 

Here is why. If the classic ops stay at lvl 50, they will be 10 levels under the max level. Therefore, they are completely out of the endgame bracket. With 2.0 they still were in a 5 level range and engame content is currently pretty much lvl 50-55. Adding another 5 levels, will make lvl 50 just another step in the leveling process, while at the moment it is pretty much the beginning of your end game experience.

 

So classic ops would only serve the purpose of gaining exp which is compared to other content available at this level (Makeb, lvl 50 flahspoints, KDY etc.) a very slow way to level up and to get past the few levels that actually would give you exp for those ops. Especially when max level players don't even run them anymore for weeklies, it will be too time consuming to get a group for those ops during leveling. You can probably level up for 3 levels in the time you would need to even get a group together. It just makes no sense to have operations for leveling purposes only.

 

Operations are endgame content and therefore I am sure they will do something about them with or shortly after 3.0. Otherwise maybe every 10th player who hits lvl 50 will bother running a classic ops for exp and then he runs them only once. Yet, operations are meant to be repeatable content. So it would clearly make sense to scale the old ops at least to lvl 55 to have them in the 55-60 endgame bracket.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Rithoma

[Ryuku-sama]

Here is why. If the classic ops stay at lvl 50, they will be 10 levels under the max level. Therefore, they are completely out of the endgame bracket. With 2.0 they still were in a 5 level range and engame content is currently pretty much lvl 50-55. Adding another 5 levels, will make lvl 50 just another step in the leveling process, while at the moment it is pretty much the beginning of your end game experience.

 

So classic ops would only serve the purpose of gaining exp which is compared to other content available at this level (Makeb, lvl 50 flahspoints, KDY etc.) a very slow way to level up and to get past the few levels that actually would give you exp for those ops. Especially when max level don't even run them anymore for weeklies, it will be too time consuming to get a group for those ops during leveling. You can probably level up for 3 levels in the time you would need to even get a group together. It just makes no sense to have operations for leveling purposes only.

 

Operations are endgame content and therefore I am sure they will do something about them with or shortly after 3.0. Otherwise maybe every 10th player who hits lvl 50 will bother running a classic ops for exp and then he runs them only once. Yet, operations are meant to be repeatable content. So it would clearly make sense to scale the old ops at least to lvl 55 to have them in the 55-60 endgame bracket.

 

And you are completely forgetting my other point.... How would someone who to follow the story line do those ops if they are 60?? they would need to do Makeb (which is happening after the Classic ops) then whatever planet coming after to be able to do them... Or they could simply grossly overlevel Makeb and stuff.... Depending on what designs the devs want to give to this game, both choice are possible. But if they care about the story and everything, they will let them at level and maybe offer a scaled version without keeping people from running them at level 50... But I agree that barely no one would bther running them outside of some guild run for the lawls if they weren't scaled. Perhaps bolstering the SM so the original level through cap level could do them would solve this matter? I don't know. But losing the possibilty to run part of content initially intended for lvl 50 at lvl 50 would be rather upsetting.

[Rithoma]

And you are completely forgetting my other point.... How would someone who to follow the story line do those ops if they are 60?? they would need to do Makeb (which is happening after the Classic ops) then whatever planet coming after to be able to do them... Or they could simply grossly overlevel Makeb and stuff.... Depending on what designs the devs want to give to this game, both choice are possible. But if they care about the story and everything, they will let them at level and maybe offer a scaled version without keeping people from running them at level 50... But I agree that barely no one would bther running them outside of some guild run for the lawls if they weren't scaled. Perhaps bolstering the SM so the original level through cap level could do them would solve this matter? I don't know. But losing the possibilty to run part of content initially intended for lvl 50 at lvl 50 would be rather upsetting.

 

You are right. Storywise they come before Makeb. Yet, even now you can start Makeb at lvl 48 and do the ops only at lvl 50. So levelwise they are behind Makeb already.

 

The thing is, either nobody runs them anymore, which would be kinda sad and then new players will have a hard time experiencing these stories at all, or they drastically change and improve rewards, so that players have a reason to run them. But when lvl 60 comes, they will be soloable. Mobs 10 levels below you can't really damage you, because you have a very high chance to parry, deflect, dodge etc. their attacks. And even if a few attacks actually hit you, you will barely notice the damage due to your large hp pool and damage reduction at lvl 60. And since they will be easily soloable, they can't make them really rewarding.

 

So, basically BW has the choice between abandoning them at lvl 50 or to buff them a little and keep them in the repertoire of their endgame content. I personally hope they won't abandon them.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Rithoma

[FridgeLM]

Here is why. If the classic ops stay at lvl 50, they will be 10 levels under the max level. Therefore, they are completely out of the endgame bracket.

 

Welcome to MMO - this is standard. Content becomes obsolete on an expected and predictable timeframe.

 

They'd better not scale any content currently out - especially Oriconian ops, that'd be suicide. Any effort put toward desperate measures to keep them relevant would only serve to alienate people who run ops. The content's old and played out, let it die.

Edited October 9, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Petvin]

Scaling the old ops gives some much needed variety in end game content.

Running the same constantly is very boring imo.

Cant level 60 versions be added and the old ones be left as is?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Petvin

[Danw]

Here is why. If the classic ops stay at lvl 50, they will be 10 levels under the max level. Therefore, they are completely out of the endgame bracket. With 2.0 they still were in a 5 level range and engame content is currently pretty much lvl 50-55. Adding another 5 levels, will make lvl 50 just another step in the leveling process, while at the moment it is pretty much the beginning of your end game experience.

 

So classic ops would only serve the purpose of gaining exp which is compared to other content available at this level (Makeb, lvl 50 flahspoints, KDY etc.) a very slow way to level up and to get past the few levels that actually would give you exp for those ops. Especially when max level players don't even run them anymore for weeklies, it will be too time consuming to get a group for those ops during leveling. You can probably level up for 3 levels in the time you would need to even get a group together. It just makes no sense to have operations for leveling purposes only.

 

Operations are endgame content and therefore I am sure they will do something about them with or shortly after 3.0. Otherwise maybe every 10th player who hits lvl 50 will bother running a classic ops for exp and then he runs them only once. Yet, operations are meant to be repeatable content. So it would clearly make sense to scale the old ops at least to lvl 55 to have them in the 55-60 endgame bracket.

 

I agree with this

 

Most people who will play this game will not stop at 50 or 55 they will go all the way to 60..."end game" content at such low levels is a waste of content. his is why character level systems do not work in MMO's, finally I think the companies are starting to see it, after every single WoW clone for the last 10 years has been a disappointment as far as "the next big MMO" is concerned.

 

Elder Scrolls had the chance to change things and be Skyrim online, but they went with WoW clone again and looked at what happens, same old and no one plays it...

 

Back to topic,

End game/ elder game should be elder game, if you have a level system then ALL end game content should always be pushed to max level so it is "end game content". In this example 50 and 55 are no longer end game so they should be scaled.

 

As far as those who did not buy RotHC or Sub are missing out , same for Shadows of Revan.

 

I wish we could see metrics on how much revenue is created from F2P, Preferred, subs, and Cartel market. I would guess that 30% of the games income is subs, 60% is cartel market from subs, and only 10% is preferred cartel market. Unfortunately that's the wrong scaling for a <strike>successful</strike> fun game, you always want subs to be the dominant number over a cash shop. or you end up with more games like SWTOR that focus on cash shop more the actual game play.

 

Anyway, I get off topic a lot...

BioWare will never scale their content because it's too much work... and the designers are still stuck in the WoW design world (that even Blizzard is abandoning) instead of innovating.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Danw

[Kryand]

As it is, some fights of the old ops will have to be entirely redesigned. I'd be amazed if NiM Cartel Warlords is even possible with a 12s cleanse, even if it's 5 levels behind. Deathmarks on Dread Council will also be an auto-wipe unless you have enough non-healers who can cleanse. They need to figure that out before worrying about what level to scale the ops to.

[Rithoma]

Scaling the old ops gives some much needed variety in end game content.

Running the same constantly is very boring imo.

Cant level 60 versions be added and the old ones be left as is?

 

This^^

 

Getting new ops with 3.0 is absolutely awesome!

 

Yet, the amount of max level content will be reduced from currently 4 ops to 2 ops due to the level cap increase. If BW plans to keep the current pace of releasing ops (14 months until new ops), their best bet would probablybe to not completely abandon endgame content that is already out there and just needs some scaling. Same with falshpoints. While it will be great to play new content, the variety of max level flashpoints will be reduced. Bringing some older flahspoints to the new max level, would probably be the easiest and cheapest way for BW to provide a much wider range of endgame content.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Rithoma

[Petvin]

I agree with this

 

Most people who will play this game will not stop at 50 or 55 they will go all the way to 60..."end game" content at such low levels is a waste of content. his is why character level systems do not work in MMO's, finally I think the companies are starting to see it, after every single WoW clone for the last 10 years has been a disappointment as far as "the next big MMO" is concerned.

 

Elder Scrolls had the chance to change things and be Skyrim online, but they went with WoW clone again and looked at what happens, same old and no one plays it...

 

Back to topic,

End game/ elder game should be elder game, if you have a level system then ALL end game content should always be pushed to max level so it is "end game content". In this example 50 and 55 are no longer end game so they should be scaled.

 

As far as those who did not buy RotHC or Sub are missing out , same for Shadows of Revan.

 

I wish we could see metrics on how much revenue is created from F2P, Preferred, subs, and Cartel market. I would guess that 30% of the games income is subs, 60% is cartel market from subs, and only 10% is preferred cartel market. Unfortunately that's the wrong scaling for a successful game, you always want subs to be the dominant number over a cash shop. or you end up with more games like SWTOR that focus on cash shop more the actual game play.

 

Anyway, I get off topic a lot...

BioWare will never scale their content because it's too much work... and the designers are still stuck in the WoW design world (that even Blizzard is abandoning) instead of innovating.

 

Wow design World is thing is so true.

 

Look at FFXIV ARR it has a large number of subs ca 500.000 Active players each day,no idiotic cashshop, and they add new dungeons and new end game content every 3 month.

 

Here is evidence of the better end game content http://www.ffxivinfo.com/guides/end-game.php

Evidence of the Active players http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/446/view/forums/thread/410340/FFXIV-A-Realm-Reborn-Reaches-the-Milestone-of-2-Million-Subscribers.html

 

Funny that a Japanese Company is better at MMORPG's then a western one

[MisterBlackJack]

Here is why. If the classic ops stay at lvl 50, they will be 10 levels under the max level. Therefore, they are completely out of the endgame bracket. With 2.0 they still were in a 5 level range and engame content is currently pretty much lvl 50-55. Adding another 5 levels, will make lvl 50 just another step in the leveling process, while at the moment it is pretty much the beginning of your end game experience.

 

So classic ops would only serve the purpose of gaining exp which is compared to other content available at this level (Makeb, lvl 50 flahspoints, KDY etc.) a very slow way to level up and to get past the few levels that actually would give you exp for those ops. Especially when max level players don't even run them anymore for weeklies, it will be too time consuming to get a group for those ops during leveling. You can probably level up for 3 levels in the time you would need to even get a group together. It just makes no sense to have operations for leveling purposes only.

 

Operations are endgame content and therefore I am sure they will do something about them with or shortly after 3.0. Otherwise maybe every 10th player who hits lvl 50 will bother running a classic ops for exp and then he runs them only once. Yet, operations are meant to be repeatable content. So it would clearly make sense to scale the old ops at least to lvl 55 to have them in the 55-60 endgame bracket.

 

Problem is story wise classic ops takes place before makeb. specifically kp is the op that leads to RotHC storyline so having them scale throws the storyline off

[Danw]

Problem is story wise classic ops takes place before makeb. specifically kp is the op that leads to RotHC storyline so having them scale throws the storyline off

 

Then leave/create a SINGLE PLAYER version just for story with quests that direct you to them and then scale the group stuff, problem solved.

[Jaxtes]

Until they change the F2P limit from 50 to 55 all ops will stay at their current level.

[Icebergy]

They've already recycled too much content, give us NEW content not the same stuff.

[TarkTrain]

Why are people hung up on the story order? There are already tons of examples of things that can be played out of order storywise (several of which have already been mentioned in the thread). In my opinion having a variety of end game content is way, way, way more important then ensuring the story continuity of old content. I think the solution is to handle the OPs the same way they have done flashpoints. The SM version of the OP should be at the level it originally came out at (50 for EV, KP, EC, TFB; 55 for S&V, DF, DP). HM/NM mode of OPs released prior to the last major expansion (currently pre 2.0), would be at 5 levels below max level (like current "Classic Operations"). HM/NM OPs released after the last major expansion (post 2.0), would be at max level. All versions of new OPs Would be at max level. Then you still have plenty of relevant content, and you can keep the story purists relatively happy.

[Ryuku-sama]

Why are people hung up on the story order? There are already tons of examples of things that can be played out of order storywise (several of which have already been mentioned in the thread). In my opinion having a variety of end game content is way, way, way more important then ensuring the story continuity of old content. I think the solution is to handle the OPs the same way they have done flashpoints. The SM version of the OP should be at the level it originally came out at (50 for EV, KP, EC, TFB; 55 for S&V, DF, DP). HM/NM mode of OPs released prior to the last major expansion (currently pre 2.0), would be at 5 levels below max level (like current "Classic Operations"). HM/NM OPs released after the last major expansion (post 2.0), would be at max level. All versions of new OPs Would be at max level. Then you still have plenty of relevant content, and you can keep the story purists relatively happy.

 

Yup... I just want a way to play the SM at lvl 50 if they came out at lvl 50... I agree that hving HM and NiM you will quickly overlevel isn't that usefult though...

[Jaxtes]

If HM and NiM scale with level it will be content for far less people than new OPs leave them where they are, ask bioware to add new ones more often.

[Alphasgimaone]

Why not? Hardly anyone does the SM now as it is. At 60, no one will. And not many will do HM/NMs either. It's been a long-time theme for MMOs where the launch raids end up being abandoned after two or three expansion cycles.

[Andrellma]

I hope they leave the current ops as they are. I honestly can't see any reason to scale them up to 60, even NiM DF and DP should stay 55.

 

Will this result in fewer people running the ops? Possible, but honestly, fewer people were going to be running the ops anyway, just like how people stopped running TFB and SNV as much when DF/DP came out, or how people stopped running EC as much when TFB came out. The level cap isn't what stopped people from running the older ops, it was because there were newer ops to run, period.

 

There are still plenty of people who actively run even EV and KP for a number of reasons. Either gearing alts, introducing a new guildie to raiding, or people who are still seeking the pets/mounts/and titles from those ops (especially the Warstalker title and tank mount).

 

Most people who want the levels on the old ops raised tend to fall into 2 categories:

 

1) The "special snowflakes" who want their titles and mounts to remain rare. You'll get new titles and mounts for the new content, so get over it.

 

2) The people who are concerned that noone will run the old ops anymore, making it harder to find a group for them. There is going to be a hit to the number of people running the old ops anyway, because after a year of no new operations, people are excited for new operations, and will focus more on them. However, based on the fact that there are still people who actively run even storymodes of the old operations, this argument seems to be unwarranted. Not to mention that with conquests and decorations, BioWare is actively providing incentives to continue to run the old operations, maybe not every week, but it's still going to be possible to find groups for them. You may have to dig a little deeper, but those groups are still there.

 

Personally, I would prefer the levels remain the same not so that I can go in and grab the Dread Master title or the Wings easily a level cap or two from now (honestly it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if they removed these rewards with the cap raise), but because it provides a stepping stone, an experience to build on for raiding starting at level 50 for people who are new to the game. Each of these bosses in the old ops has mechanics that are expanded on in newer operations, from learning to drop two bosses together (Jarg/Sorno, Zorn/Toth, Terror tentacles, Dread Council) to clicking a certain tile on a panel (Vorgath, Olok), and everything else (Don't stand in stupid, stop heals on X player, run around like a coward when boss does X, move boss to this area when he does X, etc). These are tactics that are best learned on the lower level ops, starting at level 50, rather than having someone at 60 trying to main tank the newest raids when they've never picked up the basics in any raid before.

[JumperPenn]

Why not? Hardly anyone does the SM now as it is. At 60, no one will. And not many will do HM/NMs either. It's been a long-time theme for MMOs where the launch raids end up being abandoned after two or three expansion cycles.

 

50 operations are a great way to get a fresh 50 in your guild into an operation for the first time. Guildies go back to do this to help out the fresh 50 as well as chase achievements and now go for decorations.

 

So you and others are wrong that "no one will run them".

 

I'd prefer they keep a 50 version if they add a 60 version so that guilds could still bring a fresh 'end game' player into a 8-16 player operation for the first time and not have to tell them to level more. I would say unless they raise the free level from 50 to 55 but that then keeps people from experiencing operations for another 5 levels. Which for some people is another week or two of grinding, maybe more for an even smaller group. I think it would be nice to not keep people from any operation with guildies for an extra 5 levels because we're on the raise the level cap(throw more hit points at everything) train of expanding the game.