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Balance Sage Mini-Guide


Keata

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TLDR: guide is WRONG.

 

-1 your rotation at least the opening one that I looked first is WRONG. No point reading my the rest. No point repeating the explanation which is covered really well in Mila's guide. Search for it. Although good effort please take it down and remove it from your signature as it is a wrong textbook.

Edited by MusicRider
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Then you are doing something wrong with your math cause by your own description in what you linked you are delaying force in balance and then allowing every tick of a lesser dot to use a force suppression stack. Your math is impossible if you are correctly using the ability scaling for levels, skill tree, and bonus damage. You have basically said that dots which do more damage actually do less damage than something that absolutely does less damage (mind crush) and you are thereby removing the maximum of 20% damage increase from as many of those heavier dot ticks as possible because you are using them on mind crush cast immediately after force in balance.

 

Aka. something is very wrong with your theory crafting.

 

Also it shouldn't be an 18 second rotation but a 15 second rotation using four abilities with weaken mind and sever force floating as they drop off the target.

Edited by g_land
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It's not even a 15 second rotation. Force in Balance takes priority over everything, but if you're already channeling a Telekinetic Throw when it comes off CD, you delay it until you clip, which means that even the "15 second rotation" has a tendency to drift a bit depending on alacrity. Other things that are wrong with the guide…

 

  • You list 3/7/36 as the only spec. This is…not ideal. I'm probably going to draw a little flack here, but 2/8/36 is tremendously more useful and results in higher DPS on most boss fights (one point in Concentration). The reason being that 3/7/36 can only sustain its rotation for about 4:30 - 5:00 worth of single-target burn, and substantially less in a stop-and-go situation. It's a fundamentally force negative spec that is only suitable to short duration burns. Noble Sacrificing periodically isn't an acceptable solution, both because it puts added strain on your healers and because it loses the DPS advantage that you originally gained from that 1% extra alacrity. tl;dr: run 2/8/36 on almost every boss where balance is well-suited (Brontes and Nefra being the standout examples of a 3/7/36 boss)
  • Your APM is highly sub-optimal if you're not running out of force on long fights. Heck, I finish Nefra around 20-30% Force if I'm not running with a good DPS group. With optimal APM, you can sustain the force negativity of 3/7/36 for just shy of five minutes, after which you will be completely tapped if you're clipping optimally.
  • You apply your DoTs consecutively with no gaps (i.e. Weaken Mind > Sever Force). This results in substantial delays on both Force in Balance and Mind Crush as the parse goes on, since those abilities are unable to simultaneously drift past the two GCD block, meaning that you lose 3 seconds on one and 6 seconds on the other, once every 6 rotations. Split your DoTs by using the following opener: WM > FiB > SF > TkT > MC (assuming you can't pre-cast MC).
  • Applying DoTs during Mental Alacrity actually really sucks, since it causes you to clip (or delay) them in the next rotation cycle. You're much better off saving Mental Alacrity until after you've reapplied Sever Force so that you don't have clipping issues. Always use your adrenal with Mental Alacrity (delay the adrenal as necessary for this).
  • Your priority queue is confusing. Telekinetic Throw has no cooldown. If I followed your queue mechanically, I would never use Disturbance. I would advice swapping its position with TkT and giving it the "on proc" qualifier.
  • Force Potency should not be used on cooldown. Time it to be consumed by a FiB and a TkT. Might be worth noting that in a lot of boss fights with AoE components, you want to time the first charge to be consumed by TkT rather than the more conventional inverse order (it's much easier to time potency for first-stack consumption by FiB).

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Interesting that you say that when I've theory crafted Milas opener and mine and mine does more initial burst and more overall.

 

I think that evaluating a balance rotation in terms of initial burst is like comparing whether a turtle or a snail is faster (and in case the rotation you are describing has less initial burst).

 

I do fully agree with the comments written here by the previous posters, and the reason I pointed you in Mila's guide is to avoid repeating the same statements over and over again... I have the same views which are summarised in his guide.

 

You might be getting a high dps cause balance is quite forgiving in the order of using your abilities provided that you use some common sense like reapplying dots as soon as they expire, using FiB as soon as it comes off gcd, clipping TkT at 3 wrath stacks... However, a guide serves the purpose of a textbook showing what is supposed to be the "optimal" rotation. I am afraid but I have to say that your theory crafting is wrong and leads to "non-optimal" rotations. Posters above have given explanations. Some further key ones (but as I said Mila's has already written about them) are: mind crush is your weaker dot but it consumes its max deathmark charges leaving the other two dots unable to be fully utilised, sever force initial damage consumes a mark on hit so it is better to use it after FiB, you are delaying FiB to the point that you have 3 ticks of your dots plus the initial damage of sever force not benefiting from it and not to mention that FiB is a key hard-hitting ability that its use should be maximised, pre-casting hard-casting mind crush as first ability solves pretty much all these issues at least in the opener and also sets you on higher initial "burst".

 

Basically opening rotation looks as follows:

MC->WM->FiB->SF->TkT->D ...

 

Potency is better used with FiB and TkT and not on cd which might result using it with MC or D. IMO, alacrity is less detrimental in balance than it is in TK but I agree with the poster above that it is better utilised during the TkT spamming phase.

 

And there are others, but here I am rewriting the schematics of the wheel.

 

Your effort of writing the guide and putting it on a webpage is appreciated, but the content is misleading and not right.

Edited by MusicRider
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And how i can read it? When i click on url i getting message

Sorry, you don't have permission for that!

I cant even register on forum, when i click on Register Now i get

Sorry, you don't have permission for that!

I click on every button and always getting

Sorry, you don't have permission for that!

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I think you guys are missing the point of this guide. This isn't a 1%'ers guide to maximizing balance dps. There are plenty of those out there. The intent of this guide is to have a "K.I.S.S." guide out there to help those new to the spec or those that have been playing a little on their own and starting to look for ways to improve. Let's face it, the 1%'ers guides can get a bit complex and drive people away from them that don't care to play that hard core. The intent here is to get a simple/viable guide to those that don't care to be in the top 1%, thus calling it a mini-guide, not an everything guide or how to do balance sage the best guide. If you notice the last line int he guide, it states: "I'm not going to claim this to be a best way to play, but its a very viable way to do Balance dps."

 

There's a lot of valid points stated above for 1%'ers to know about, I agree. Anyone that knows 5th grade math can see that WM and SF are better dots to consume Force Suppression ticks. Those of you wanting to get the best ops training dummy parses out there will not follow the rotation I've specified, and that's fine. This isn't a guide for you, unfortunately, you seem to be the only ones replying to guide threads.

 

How all that theory crafting equates to boss fights can go out the window in a heart beat with RNG on relic procs or how many times your getting mining droids on Grob'thok. I have yet to see a guide (Maybe I've missed it) about what's the best rotation priorities on fights like Draxus where there is a ton of switching to mobs that die really fast. Most of the guides out there are for maximizing dps potential, not to help people get started with the spec.

 

The bottom line is this is a viable way for someone getting started with Balance or getting started with looking into improving to get to a point where they don't hate the spec because they can't get all the 1% guides figured out. The goal is to get people to enjoy the class and get a basic knowledge of how to be ops viable. Some of you will be able to out do this on bosses some weeks, others won't. This rotation and way of doing may not have the highest potential of any rotation and that's fine.. But the starting rotation bursts high without pulling the boss off the tank in the first couple secs of a fight and I'm able to maintain 4100 dps on Grob'thok while getting the mining droid 4 times. Before most of you out geared me (due to our guilds casual approach to Nim progression), I was posting top 3 boss fight parses for Sage dps on some nim fights. There's something to be said for simplicity in rotation while dealing with boss mechanics.

 

My intent for writing this was this to be a stepping stone between starting or frustrated from not being able to figure it out on your own to wanting to do 1% theory crafted maximum dps potential. I feel this has done that quite well. If we don't have guides like this to fill that role, we lose a lot as a class community and lose a lot of potential to the players base as a whole.

 

On a completely separate side note: the post above regarding a 2/8/36 build for force management, Your theory crafting seems to make sense, but loses a bit in application. I've stuck with the 3/7/36 build in every boss fight regardless of duration and have yet to need to use noble sacrifice while maintaining 37-40 apm. There's a lot more involved with knowing rotation adjustments for longer fights than pen and paper theory crafting will show. If someone is trying to apply dots all the time on mobs that are dying in 5-6 secs, they are going to run out of force on longer fights and they are going to lose a huge chunk of dps. However there isn't much said out there for adjustments like that. What i liked about Milas's guide was it wasn't a lot of Theory crafted stuff, it was a good player figuring out common sense ways to play and later proved by theory crafters to work.

 

Anyway, hope everyone is having a great day and enjoying your time in swtor :)

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And how i can read it? When i click on url i getting message

Sorry, you don't have permission for that!

I cant even register on forum, when i click on Register Now i get

Sorry, you don't have permission for that!

I click on every button and always getting

Sorry, you don't have permission for that!

 

Which link were you using? or did you try both? There shouldn't be any permission issues unless you've had dealings with us in the past and have been banned from our forums, which I'm not aware of hardly anyone in swtor doing.

 

Thanks for pointing this out though, I'd like to make sure it isn't an issue for others as well.

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On a completely separate side note: the post above regarding a 2/8/36 build for force management, Your theory crafting seems to make sense, but loses a bit in application. I've stuck with the 3/7/36 build in every boss fight regardless of duration and have yet to need to use noble sacrifice while maintaining 37-40 apm. There's a lot more involved with knowing rotation adjustments for longer fights than pen and paper theory crafting will show. If someone is trying to apply dots all the time on mobs that are dying in 5-6 secs, they are going to run out of force on longer fights and they are going to lose a huge chunk of dps. However there isn't much said out there for adjustments like that. What i liked about Milas's guide was it wasn't a lot of Theory crafted stuff, it was a good player figuring out common sense ways to play and later proved by theory crafters to work.

 

Your assumptions are in err. I've been raiding extensively on both my sorc and my sage as DPS in NiM content both pre and post nerf, using both TK and Balance as the needs of the fight demand. My 2/8/36 recommendation is very practically driven. Unless your group's DPS is really really really high (which it might be!), you should start having a noticeably drained force pool by the time you finish Nefra in 3/7/36. You won't run into any problems, because you should still have a decent cushion remaining, but it will be very clear that your spec is force negative.

 

Grob'thok is an excellent example of a boss fight where you will straight-up run out of force in 3/7/36 unless you're delaying things or using full-channel Telekinetic Throw in places. (I'm assuming you don't multi-DoT, quake or otherwise do anything other than single-target DPS on Grob) Heck, I run very low on force even when I'm in 2/8/36, depending on how high the rest of the group's DPS is (and thus, how quickly the boss dies).

 

Another good example of a force-killing fight is Bestia. I do this fight in TK and generally get between 3.5k and 3.6k, so I don't see a reason to use Balance, but if I were to use Balance I would worry a lot about my force bar. 3/7/36 is simply unsustainable on this fight even if you were just turreting on the boss the whole time (remember, NiM Bestia is a 9 minute fight!). Add to that the fact that you're target swapping, doing redundant setup, clipping channels early to move out of things, etc and you have a fight which utterly wrecks balance's force management with or without Concentration. In fact, I feel confident enough to say that definitively if you are not running out of force on this fight in 3/7/36, you're simply doing something wrong in your rotation. Everyone I have ever seen run this fight in balance (including Milas!) has needed to use Noble Sacrifice/Consumption towards the end of the second phase when the DPS check momentarily loosens.

 

On a side note, your presumed "gap" between theory crafting and practical experience reports is non-existent. There is no gap. Theory crafting predicts the practical to a higher precision than practical "eye witness" reports can achieve. When theory crafting fails to predict what happens in the practicum, then either the model was misapplied (happens often!) or the theory crafting is just wrong (and can be corrected). The point being that there is no magic "practical" sauce in the game.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Okay, so normally the best way to teach someone how to do an activity is the right way and then they can come close with practice if they are interested or later became interested. No need to hamstring them. And my earlier post was taking your desire to make it easier into account when I mentioned a 15s rotation. Also, milas's post is not a complicated guide and is in fact easier to read aside from the mirror class ability names. He kept it rather simple and included a video as an aid.

 

I know you raid 16 man on shadowlands; please don't quote grob thok numbers as validation, you could do nothing but Fib in that fight and hit rediculous numbers because of the fluff damage that comes from the grossly inflated health of the ugnaughts combined with the absence of the fire damage from pre-nerf. Any spec that has aoe should be hitting in the 4-5k range simply from stacking adds on the boss.

Edited by g_land
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I find if you're having trouble with force management in either spec you're doing it wrong. A great way to avoid this is to use Force Wave (FW) in your rotation as it doesn't cost you any force, and can be a decent AoE damage ability. As a rule you should NEVER fall below 90% Force in any Boss fight or you could suffer from a big loss to your DPS. Something that most people forget to use to replenish their force is Saber Strike (SS). This ability doesn't cost any force to use and due to the passive force regeneration of the Sage it actually becomes a force regen ability rather than a force neutral.

 

The Optimal Rotation should be:

Force Bubble > Pre-cast MC > SF > WM > FW > SS > SS > Force Mend > FiB > SS > SS > TT > Dist (Proc) > Project > SS > SS > SS > SS > SS > /stuck

 

This will ensure the best possible TDPP (Troll Damage Per Post) against those that don't understand the initial purpose of the OP.

 

In Closing: LTH (Learn to Human), the community would be a much better place if you were a bit more supportive in the OP's goal to create a less wordy guide for the "Average" player to get into, rather than just troll it to shreds. Try giving tips on different tactics and priorities to use during different encounters, or /SUGGEST/ looking at other guides for reference in addition to this one. You have pretty much told everyone here to ignore the OP, and look to another guide because... YOU... thought it was a better guide. Not because it explains this post in a better way, or because it is a superior way to achieve the goal of this thread, but simply because in your opinion only being a #1 DPS should matter to everybody. To each their own, if someone doesn't want to be hardcore but still wants to cut their teeth on what it takes to get there, this is a great starting point.

 

To Keata, on behalf of myself and the community we play with, I thank you for all the work and effort you put into this, not because you wanted to brag about your own goals, but simply because you wanted to help others accomplish theirs; Kudos.

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I find if you're having trouble with force management in either spec you're doing it wrong. A great way to avoid this is to use Force Wave (FW) in your rotation as it doesn't cost you any force, and can be a decent AoE damage ability. As a rule you should NEVER fall below 90% Force in any Boss fight or you could suffer from a big loss to your DPS. Something that most people forget to use to replenish their force is Saber Strike (SS). This ability doesn't cost any force to use and due to the passive force regeneration of the Sage it actually becomes a force regen ability rather than a force neutral.

 

The Optimal Rotation should be:

Force Bubble > Pre-cast MC > SF > WM > FW > SS > SS > Force Mend > FiB > SS > SS > TT > Dist (Proc) > Project > SS > SS > SS > SS > SS > /stuck

 

This will ensure the best possible TDPP (Troll Damage Per Post) against those that don't understand the initial purpose of the OP.

 

In Closing: LTH (Learn to Human), the community would be a much better place if you were a bit more supportive in the OP's goal to create a less wordy guide for the "Average" player to get into, rather than just troll it to shreds. Try giving tips on different tactics and priorities to use during different encounters, or /SUGGEST/ looking at other guides for reference in addition to this one. You have pretty much told everyone here to ignore the OP, and look to another guide because... YOU... thought it was a better guide. Not because it explains this post in a better way, or because it is a superior way to achieve the goal of this thread, but simply because in your opinion only being a #1 DPS should matter to everybody. To each their own, if someone doesn't want to be hardcore but still wants to cut their teeth on what it takes to get there, this is a great starting point.

 

To Keata, on behalf of myself and the community we play with, I thank you for all the work and effort you put into this, not because you wanted to brag about your own goals, but simply because you wanted to help others accomplish theirs; Kudos.

 

Interesting that you call out people who have posted on this forum for trolling, yet your post is the most trollish post. I know you think its nice to try and defend your guildie and everythying but let the posters share their opinion since they bring out very valid points.(some of them anyway)

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