Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[DarthTHC]

5 chars.

 

Sorry I'm not sifting thorough over a dozen pages of garbage to figure out where you thought you resolved that issue but probably didn't. If you're willing to provide a direct link to the post or tell me the post number, I'll be more than happy to read it.

Edited October 2, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Jadescythe]

You can stop this part of the thread any time you're ready to say you either misunderstand what the word literally means or you weren't really paying attention but decided to stick your nose in anyway.

 

Literally - in a literal manner or sense; exactly.

 

Considering he clicked quote and did not edit your text, he posted EXACTLY what you said word for word. The definition of literally. Clearly you can't even read the thread, so I'll go ahead and assume you have no idea what you're talking about in any of your posts.

[ParagonAX]

Sorry I'm not sifting thorough over a dozen pages of garbage to figure out where you thought you resolved that issue but probably didn't. If you're willing to provide a direct link to the post, I'll be more than happy to read it.

 

Good, you should be sorry. Also clicking to find someone's recent posts is hard.

[DarthTHC]

Literally - in a literal manner or sense; exactly.

 

Considering he clicked quote and did not edit your text, he posted EXACTLY what you said word for word. The definition of literally. Clearly you can't even read the thread, so I'll go ahead and assume you have no idea what you're talking about in any of your posts.

 

He literally DID edit my text, by deleting a sentence, after he clicked the QUOTE button. Therefore he did not post EXACTLY what I said word for word.

 

You're quite confused in your assertions or about how the forums work, aren't you?

[DarthTHC]

Good, you should be sorry. Also clicking to find someone's recent posts is hard.

 

I see we've established that you have no workable answer to that deficiency in your proposed solution.

[Jadescythe]

He literally DID edit my text, by deleting a sentence, after he clicked the QUOTE button. Therefore he did not post EXACTLY what I said word for word.

 

You're quite confused in your assertions or about how the forums work, aren't you?

 

Did you go to page 56 and look at it? Long story short, you didn't because your post is right above his with the same text as what's quoted. If you can't even look at the evidence proving you're wrong, how can you have a discussion with anyone?

[Nepthen]

Smaller guilds right now cannot compete against the mega guilds via crafting if the two get into a crafting war. So nerfing crafting doesn't change that aspect of conquests at all.

 

So it needs to be done. Let the fights take place "in the trenches", be it Ops, WZ, GSF, or FPs.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Nepthen

[DarthTHC]

Did you go to page 56 and look at it? Long story short, you didn't because your post is right above his with the same text as what's quoted. If you can't even look at the evidence proving you're wrong, how can you have a discussion with anyone?

 

Page counts are nebulous because forum settings can change those. I see 15 or 16 pages on this thread.

 

I literally did go look at my post, then I literally looked at his and how he quoted mine, before I accused him of taking the quote out of context. I literally saw one less sentence in his quote than I literally saw in mine.

 

I'm not sure how you could see anything different.

 

Here's my post, #554 on this thread:

 

What's your solution to smaller guilds never having a chance of winning, ever? Suffer, become big, or don't bother trying for anything beyond about 8th place?

 

Now go look at post #566 on this thread, in which TUXs quotes my #554.

 

Do you see any difference at all in the green text?

 

Why are we still having this conversation?

Edited October 2, 2014 by DarthTHC

[DarthTHC]

Smaller guilds right now cannot compete against the mega guilds via crafting if the two get into a crafting war. So nerfing crafting doesn't change that aspect of conquests at all.

 

So it needs to be done. Let the fights take place "in the trenches", be it Ops, WZ, GSF, or FPs.

 

Smaller guilds can indeed compete against bigger ones now, via crafting, but they have to be smart about it. I'm not talking micro guilds with 4 players, but guilds that are still far smaller than the behemoths.

 

Think of it like a distance race. You stay "close enough" until you're near the finish line, then you pour it on.

 

It has been done and will continue to be done unless the OP's proposal to nerf crafting points is implemented.

[ivanhedgehog]

I don't even understand why this is a conversation we need to have.

 

because he is a troll. he will not be convinced in any way because he isnt willing to listen at all. the attempt to explain it to him is futile.

[DarthTHC]

because he is a troll. he will not be convinced in any way because he isnt willing to listen at all. the attempt to explain it to him is futile.

 

Or the person choosing to argue with me has his facts messed up. That's a possibility too as I've pointed out clearly above...

[ikinai]

Smaller guilds right now cannot compete against the mega guilds via crafting if the two get into a crafting war. So nerfing crafting doesn't change that aspect of conquests at all.

 

So it needs to be done. Let the fights take place "in the trenches", be it Ops, WZ, GSF, or FPs.

 

How about instead of taking the crafting down, increasing the points for the other activities to be on par with crafting? That way people who are crafters can still contribute equally to those who do FPs, OPs and PvP. After all, a battle may be won through fighting, but a war is won through logistics.

[Jadescythe]

Page counts are nebulous because forum settings can change those. I see 15 or 16 pages on this thread.

 

I literally did go look at my post, then I literally looked at his and how he quoted mine, before I accused him of taking the quote out of context. I literally saw one less sentence in his quote than I literally saw in mine.

 

I'm not sure how you could see anything different.

 

Here's my post, #554 on this thread:

 

 

 

Now go look at post #566 on this thread, in which TUXs quotes my #554.

 

Do you see any difference at all in the green text?

 

Why are we still having this conversation?

 

Considering Tux's post was #555, I'm not really sure what to tell you. Both sentences are there. Screenshot since you're obviously incapable of looking.

[DarthTHC]

Considering Tux's post was #555, I'm not really sure what to tell you. Both sentences are there. Screenshot since you're obviously incapable of looking.

 

Ah, but that's not the one I quoted accusing him of quoting me out of context, was it?

 

I understand some people might have trouble following a threaded conversation given this forum format, and you've succeeded in making it exponentially harder by continuing to shove your nose into a conversation you had no business participating in, in the first place. Nicely done.

[g_land]

The phrase he took out was superfluous and did not change your statement in any way. It was just extra words.

 

Galactic Conquests as it is constructed does not cater to smaller guilds so the argument that crafting should not be nerfed because it gives smaller guilds a chance is invalid. More people still equals more crafting.

 

Secondly, the large number of points available from crafting works against what appears to be the goals of conquests.

 

1. To bring players back to game because of strongholds and decorations.

2. Encourage people to get to know a larger group of players; aside from lightsabers what really keeps people playing an mmo, the people they get to know

3. Encourage players to play old content

4. Encourage players to play varied content

5. Keep people distracted by the new shiny because it's been a very long time since there was a substantial game update (3.0 ?)

 

Keeping in mind that those are probably most of the major goals of GSH and Conquests, how does crafting war supplies truly encourage any of that. Most obvious and glaring parallel to it from previous game experience would be the gree event and the "pvp" for the pylon on ilum. People took the path of least resistance and simply stood in line. Why fight it out for no relative benefit is the same idea as why bother with a 1 hour op or 30 minute Flashpoint when that time is better spent queuing ten toons up for crafting and running a couple dailies to pay for gathering missions. For those of you who will say that conquest is just a couple of achievements, well guess how they fixed the pylon line on ilum... achievements.

Edited October 2, 2014 by g_land

[Jadescythe]

Ah, but that's not the one I quoted accusing him of quoting me out of context, was it?

 

I understand some people might have trouble following a threaded conversation given this forum format, and you've succeeded in making it exponentially harder by continuing to shove your nose into a conversation you had no business participating in, in the first place. Nicely done.

 

My apologies, I forgot how reading what is already in the thread is beneath you. I suppose every time I quote you, I should go back and quote every post you've made in this thread to make sure anyone reading my response gets full view of your opinions so as to not misinterpret.

 

He quoted your full reply in his post where he asked the original question. You claimed that you did not say there was a problem. So he specifically quoted the line where he inferred you felt there was a problem by requesting a solution. Why would he fully quote you to specify the exact portion where he was drawing his conclusions from? Perhaps if you actually explained what you meant instead of telling him not to quote you out of context when he had already quoted your entire statement, this issue never would have come up.

[DarthTHC]

The phrase he took out was superfluous and did not change your statement in any way. It was just extra words.

 

Galactic Conquests as it is constructed does not cater to smaller guilds so the argument that crafting should not be nerfed because it gives smaller guilds a chance is invalid. More people still equals more crafting.

 

There is a difference between "catering to" and "enabling". Your theory that bigger guilds will always win now is not the way it plays out in practice, in the real world, in the real game, right now. Smaller guilds DO beat bigger guilds. Crafting points allow this to happen. A nerf to crafting points would prevent it.

 

Secondly, the large number of points available from crafting works against what appears to be the goals of conquests.

 

1. To bring players back to game because of strongholds and decorations.

2. Encourage people to get to know a larger group of players; aside from lightsabers what really keeps people playing an mmo, the people they get to know

3. Encourage players to play old content

4. Encourage players to play varied content

5. Keep people distracted by the new shiny because it's been a very long time since there was a substantial game update (3.0 ?)

 

I think you might be applying some of your own bias to those points. I might word them differently:

 

1) To bring players back to the game. (period)

2) To encourage people to group and play more with guilds. (note the absence of the word, "large")

3) OK

4) OK

5) *chuckle* OK

 

A guild does not have to be large to provide its benefits to the game. It just has to be enough to give the players in it a sense of camaraderie, belonging, and possibly purpose.

 

Keeping in mind that those are probably most of the major goals of GSH and Conquests, how does crafting war supplies truly encourage any of that.

 

Crafting can be a team sport, too. Guilds that plan, divide the work intelligently, and execute together (though maybe at different times, unlike say an operation) are still working as a team, still building that sense of cohesiveness, still being a guild, right? (Guilds DO do that with crafting.)

 

Most obvious and glaring parallel to it from previous game experience would be the gree event and the "pvp" for the pylon on ilum. People took the path of least resistance and simply stood in line. Why fight it out for no relative benefit is the same idea as why bother with a 1 hour op or 30 minute Flashpoint

 

Because the flashpoint or op or war zone or GSF match give you other things besides Conquest Points, maybe? As in, for the same reason we did all those things before Conquest ever came into the game, but now as an added bonus we get Conquest Points, too!

 

... when that time is better spent queuing ten toons up for crafting and running a couple dailies to pay for gathering missions. For those of you who will say that conquest is just a couple of achievements, well guess how they fixed the pylon line on ilum... achievements.

 

If all you're doing the flash points or ops or war zones or gsf or whatever for is conquest points, sure. You have a point.

 

Are you passing on every drop and destroying the commendations you get at the end, or doing the equivalent for the GSF and Warzone rewards? No? What are you going to use those for?

[Nepthen]

Smaller guilds can indeed compete against bigger ones now, via crafting, but they have to be smart about it. I'm not talking micro guilds with 4 players, but guilds that are still far smaller than the behemoths.

 

Think of it like a distance race. You stay "close enough" until you're near the finish line, then you pour it on.

 

It has been done and will continue to be done unless the OP's proposal to nerf crafting points is implemented.

 

I disagree based off what I've seen on my server.

 

Speaking about the Shadowlands alone, no guild has beat out the 4 "mega" guilds on our sever, crafting bonus or not, when going head to head. The mega guilds are not comfortable with paltry leads... they pour it on early and keep pace with the smaller guilds. The smaller guild would have to have a substantial crafting bomb Sunday night to hope to catch the bigger guilds. However, I would take a guess and say that every mega guild in a "close" race will also prepare a crafting bomb Sunday night just in case. If the smaller guild didn't push, then they'll keep their points until Tuesday.

 

Now, if a mega guild gets lazy and doesn't prepare for a final crafting push by the guild in 2nd place Sunday night, that's on them. However, I doubt any of the mega guilds don't prepare for such a tactic.

[DarthTHC]

My apologies, I forgot how reading what is already in the thread is beneath you. I suppose every time I quote you, I should go back and quote every post you've made in this thread to make sure anyone reading my response gets full view of your opinions so as to not misinterpret.

 

He quoted your full reply in his post where he asked the original question. You claimed that you did not say there was a problem. So he specifically quoted the line where he inferred you felt there was a problem by requesting a solution. Why would he fully quote you to specify the exact portion where he was drawing his conclusions from? Perhaps if you actually explained what you meant instead of telling him not to quote you out of context when he had already quoted your entire statement, this issue never would have come up.

 

OK I'll let you have the last word so we can get back on topic. Go ahead, post whatever you'd like.

[DarthTHC]

I disagree based off what I've seen on my server.

 

Speaking about the Shadowlands alone, no guild has beat out the 4 "mega" guilds on our sever, crafting bonus or not, when going head to head. The mega guilds are not comfortable with paltry leads... they pour it on early and keep pace with the smaller guilds. The smaller guild would have to have a substantial crafting bomb Sunday night to hope to catch the bigger guilds. However, I would take a guess and say that every mega guild in a "close" race will also prepare a crafting bomb Sunday night just in case. If the smaller guild didn't push, then they'll keep their points until Tuesday.

 

Now, if a mega guild gets lazy and doesn't prepare for a final crafting push by the guild in 2nd place Sunday night, that's on them. However, I doubt any of the mega guilds don't prepare for such a tactic.

 

Could be a server-by-server thing. On my server we have one or two mega guilds that can consistently win and a lot of others who bounce around between winning and top 10 depending on a variety of factors, probably including whether or not they want to put in the effort required to win any given week.

 

But let's take that server with the dominant mega-guilds that never lose for sake of discussion.

 

What changes with or without the proposed crafting point nerf? It only makes it less expensive for those mega-guilds to keep doing what they're doing, right? How does it benefit anyone aside from those guilds?

[Nepthen]

Could be a server-by-server thing. On my server we have one or two mega guilds that can consistently win and a lot of others who bounce around between winning and top 10 depending on a variety of factors, probably including whether or not they want to put in the effort required to win any given week.

 

But let's take that server with the dominant mega-guilds that never lose for sake of discussion.

 

What changes with or without the proposed crafting point nerf? It only makes it less expensive for those mega-guilds to keep doing what they're doing, right? How does it benefit anyone aside from those guilds?

 

It makes it less expensive for all guilds, not just the mega guilds.

 

Mega guilds have an advantage, no matter the point values of anything. It's sheer numbers. Will this nerf help smaller guilds? Probably not. But if the argument against it is that it's the one way smaller guilds can compete, I don't see it at all because as I said earlier, mega guilds will win in a crafting war with smaller guilds. And if it truly is the only way smaller guilds can compete, isn't that a huge red flag for the system?

 

What this nerf does so is shift the focus of conquest point generation from crafting to the more "active" forms of content: OPs, FPs, WZs, GSF, Plantary heroics, WBs, etc. Will the mega guilds still win? Probably. But again, it's all numbers; they have an advantage straight up by sheer size of the memberbase. However if a smaller guild can can have a higher percentage of their playerbase online grinding out the "active" content, they may be able to push past a mega guild who relied on having tons of characters crafting/gathering while the player behind the account was logged off.

[ikinai]

It makes it less expensive for all guilds, not just the mega guilds.

 

Mega guilds have an advantage, no matter the point values of anything. It's sheer numbers. Will this nerf help smaller guilds? Probably not. But if the argument against it is that it's the one way smaller guilds can compete, I don't see it at all because as I said earlier, mega guilds will win in a crafting war with smaller guilds. And if it truly is the only way smaller guilds can compete, isn't that a huge red flag for the system?

 

What this nerf does so is shift the focus of conquest point generation from crafting to the more "active" forms of content: OPs, FPs, WZs, GSF, Plantary heroics, WBs, etc. Will the mega guilds still win? Probably. But again, it's all numbers; they have an advantage straight up by sheer size of the memberbase. However if a smaller guild can can have a higher percentage of their playerbase online grinding out the "active" content, they may be able to push past a mega guild who relied on having tons of characters crafting/gathering while the player behind the account was logged off.

 

Of course for the individual quests it would kill anyone's chances to complete it for those who prefer not to run FPs and OPs or PvP, but does do crafting. But since those people don't matter, it's all good.

[Domatron]

Of course for the individual quests it would kill anyone's chances to complete it for those who prefer not to run FPs and OPs or PvP, but does do crafting. But since those people don't matter, it's all good.

 

No one is saying kill crafting, what's being asked us why is crafting 16x more effective than anything else, making the weekly/planetary themes and bonuses completely meaningless.

[ParagonAX]

On small vs. big guilds, here were my thoughts:

Rambeezy, I do agree with you. I think actually BW should implement a tiered system where:

• NiM > HM > SM ops (in terms of conquest points awarded)
  
• Ranked > unranked pvp
  
• HM FPs > SM FPs (actually I guess they already kinda have this since HM FPs have bonus bosses which give more points)
  
• Don't know anything about GSF to suggest changes
  
• Fix crafting to not be completely broken
  

 

This way, smaller (but more elite) guilds will be able to fight against larger (but less focused) guilds, without the need for gaming a broken system.

 

Unless people actually want their small and casual guilds to have a chance at winning... in which case I don't know what to say.

Edited October 2, 2014 by ParagonAX

[Jadescythe]

Of course for the individual quests it would kill anyone's chances to complete it for those who prefer not to run FPs and OPs or PvP, but does do crafting. But since those people don't matter, it's all good.

 

I think this same argument could be turned around. Currently, if I only like doing warzones, I'm in the same boat as crafting is far and away the highest point gain. I think it should be possible to hit the goal through any one conquest objective.