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Revan, 3.0 & the Infinite Empire ( Part II )


Darth_Wicked

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Last friday, I posted this fairly lengthy examination of how Revan and the Infinite Empire always come together, their connection acting as a beacon of sorts to herald discovery, exploration, if not rebirth. Along the way, I ended up cutting some other aspects, including imagery and symbolism present in the latest

.

 

For this thread I will try to focus on that but first, I'd like to invite you all to make a little journey with me. :D

 

- - - -

 

Forty six years ago, Stanley Kubrick directed and released a film by the name of "2001: A Space Odyssey". Based on a short story by Arthur C. Clarke called "The Sentinel", it was a watershed moment in the history of cinema, its influence still being felt far and wide.

 

The movie centers around mankind's gradual but sure evolution throughout history, from its humblest beginnings as early hominids to spaceflight. Along the way, viewers are confronted with black monoliths, each heralding newfound knowledge or understanding. Though their age is unknown at first, it is later revealed that one of the monoliths is approximately four million years old, their exact origins a mystery.

 

It is a tale that beautifully captures nightfall and dawn, death and rebirth, revelation and ascension.

 

I would say more but I have no desire to spoil the story for anyone who hasn't seen it yet, not to mention I've already delved into what matters most for this topic: the black monoliths.

 

It is time we go back to the Old Republic. :cool:

 

- - - -

 

Last week after the release of the

, I brought up the possibility of a connection between the spears seen in it and the ones from an early Galactic Timeline video, aptly called
.

 

In it, Jedi Master Gnost-Dural elaborates on Exar-Kun: The man he was, what drove him to seek out the legacy of the Ancient Sith and how he came to Yavin 4, assuming soon thereafter the mantle of Dark Lord.

 

All things considered however, the spears were merely the tip of the iceberg but more on that in a short bit. :cool:

 

- - - -

 

 

Regardless of its messenger or context, "rebirth" is a recurring motif that permeates many characters and lesser factions throughout the game. Their end-goals may vary of course but there is something they all share: A catalyst that precedes their would-be rebirth.

 

In the latest

, aside the spears I had mentioned earlier, we can see an object of some sort in the middle of the room, standing between two obelisks and a flag in the back. The obelisks appear to be chained to separate pillars, while the flag holds a remarkable resemblance to Revan's lower robe. In the middle of it all, Revan turns around, a red light emanating from his visor, and draws his lightsaber, keeping his off-hand holstered.

 

Let us try to ascertain their significance shall we? ;)

 

 

THE OBELISKS:

 

As mentioned earlier, one on each side, chained to separate pillars. Is it fair to assume they're meant to represent Revan's duality?

? The Destroyer and Protector?

 

Perhaps all that, plus a more obscure

?

 

Regardless, there's something else we may wish to consider: In ancient Egypt, obelisks were placed in pairs at the entrance of temples. They were meant to symbolize the sun god Ra, the ancient egyptians' most important deity. According to its article in Wikipedia, it was hypothesized that its shape derived "from natural phenomena associated with the sun", namely the "sunrise and sunset".

 

 

And what about the chains? Are they supposed to be imagery of an endless cycle from which Revan seeks deliverance? Perhaps at all cost?

 

 

THE FLAG:

 

Judging from the video yet again, there seems to be a similarity between the flag and Revan's lower robe; Such similarity is most likely intentional. Whether this means to imply that Revan wants to destroy both Republic and Empire and carve a New Empire of his own, similar to what he supposedly tried during the Jedi Civil War, remains to be seen.

 

Do note below why I say "supposedly":

 

 

 

Do you still remember what Revan says to a Republic strike team, in Rakata Prime?

 

 

 

Earlier, G0-T0 claims that Revan never sought to destroy the Republic, that something else could have been looming on the horizon. Darth Traya on the other hand calls it by name, claiming that the True Sith, the remnants of the old Sith Empire, lie beyond the Outer Rim.

 

Even though we already went through part of it, they key here is that neither of them identify Revan as being an enemy of the Republic, that he never sought to destroy it to begin with.

 

In the latest flashpoint, Revan identifies the Republic as a "distraction" at best, that needs to be "swept aside". Whether this entails obliteration by any means necessary or simply neutralization is another matter. Regardless, he does say "distraction", as in "a thing that prevents someone from concentrating on something else."

 

 

THE OBJECT:

 

By far the most puzzling element in the teaser. What does it do? Is it a Sith artifact of some kind? Perhaps Rakata, from the time of the Infinite Empire? Or neither?

 

Even so, do you still remember Space Odyssey? The black monoliths and their role in that movie? Heralds of discovery, evolution and rebirth? Is it possible this object may have a similar role? Both a revelation and means of ascension?

 

If you'll indulge me for a while longer, it is time for a short interlude.

 

- - - -

 

Have you ever heard of "Jacob's Ladder"? In the Book of Genesis, it is described as:

 

As with so many other things in life, its interpretation may vary ever slightly depending on you ask. Since it's not my intention to question its interpretation, I'll solely focus on the part in bold and underlined.

 

- - - -

 

Back to the topic at hand... :D

 

Recently, I tried to clarify on Reddit what I meant earlier pertaining the connection between Revan and the Infinite Empire:

 

I did not mean to say that Revan was attempting to follow the same tyrannical tendencies as the Infinite Empire or anything, but more so that his evolution as a character is dependent on the legacy left behind by the Rakata.

 

As I said earlier, a plaque on Rakata Prime says that Revan was at one point both Protector and Destroyer. This happened around the time the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil War took place.

 

300 years later, he tries to do the same but ultimately fails. Why? I believe it's because his character evolution was disrupted, because the Force deemed this was not the natural path for him to come full circle.

 

Regardless, what's they very thing that is always a constant in Revan's tale? The Rakata, the Infinite Empire and the vast repositories of knowledge and technology they left behind, almost as if someone knew what was to come.

 

For him to evolve as a character, the logical step would be to ascend and become a god-like being with the intent of creating something. Regardless, as I said earlier, I honestly doubt it will come to pass. ;)

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but... :o

 

Is it fair to assume the lines are supposed to represent an upward movement? Some sort of ascension? A ladder or stairway similar to Jacob's Ladder? One that would permit ascending and descending simultaneously? Death and rebirth?

 

Time will tell.

 

 

REVAN'S THIRD EYE:

 

Would you still remember what the Trimūrti is by any chance?

 

No worries. ;)

 

 

For this exercise however, I shall focus in one element of the Trimūrti, namely Shiva... And the Third Eye the later possesses. Citing Wikipedia:

 

The third eye (also known as the inner eye) is a mystical and esoteric concept referring to a speculative invisible eye which provides perception beyond ordinary sight. In certain dharmic spiritual traditions such as Hinduism, the third eye refers to the ajna, or brow, chakra. In Theosophy it is related to the pineal gland. The third eye refers to the gate that leads to inner realms and spaces of higher consciousness. In New Age spirituality, the third eye often symbolizes a state of enlightenment or the evocation of mental images having deeply personal spiritual or psychological significance. The third eye is often associated with religious visions, clairvoyance, the ability to observe chakras and auras, precognition, and out-of-body experiences. People who are claimed to have the capacity to utilize their third eyes are sometimes known as seers.

 

Is it possible that the red light emanating from his visor is supposed to represent exactly that?

 

Do note that Shiva, as destroyer / transformer of the Trimūrti, precedes Brahma the creator. As I said earlier:

 

 

 

REVAN'S STANCE:

 

Would you agree this stance is reminiscent of this one? The same armor all battered? The same hilt? The same enemy?

 

Perhaps a story for another time.

 

- - - -

- - - -

 

My full analysis of the teaser that is. :cool:

 

Assuming you read this far, I hope you enjoyed it and that it provides some food for thought until more details for 3.0 arrive. Cheerio!

Edited by Darth_Wicked
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A very interesting read, as always. Too bad this is most likely not going to be what happens. :p

 

Again, I don't expect any of it to happen for the most part.

 

Depending on how they handle Revan, some stuff from TSL may connect well with the expansion but for the most part, it should be fairly straightforward.

 

EDIT:

 

Example: Revan force choking the player while simultaneously applying a dirty kick to one's "jewels." :p

Edited by Darth_Wicked
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This is basically literary extrapolation. The problem with extrapolation is that it's only as accurate as the amount of previous/supporting evidence it has.

 

In this case, the basis is quite literally a few seconds of promo video. Your analysis, while fun and thorough, makes a whole host of assumptions based off of very small details. Like numerous other "prediction" discussions, the lack of substantial evidence leads people to conclude that anything or everything in the teaser has some meaning to be deciphered. In reality, they may just be pointless details that were added because some art director liked them. If we're trying to make accurate guesses, the very first question we should ask about any detail is "Is there a reason to believe this is significant?"

 

For example, you talk about the obelisks and chains. There is so little information available on what we're seeing that its nearly impossible to come up with any conclusion. Connecting them with Egyptian symbolism might seem to work, but the alternative is just as convincing: That ancient Jedi and Sith used obelisks, and the art direction called for bi-lateral symmetry in the architecture. Do we have some evidence that these obelisks are meant to convey any message other than: "That looks cool"? Is it easier to assume that some designer spend a few days doing research and finding just the right set of symbols to pack a ten-second clip with obscure cultural references? Or was it perhaps nothing more than: "We'll re-texture some obelisks from Korriban and hang some chains from them, because chains look cool"?

 

The fun part here is that the same can actually be said about the Egyptians. There are many archeologists who have proposed that some usages of iconic symbols may have been nothing more than designers creating appealing appearances, and only applying symbolism and religious meaning after the fact.

 

In some cases, there is significant reason to suggest meaning. The next question could be: "Do we have evidence to suggest this has a meaning beyond identification or simple artistic correlation?"

 

The flag is a good example of this. It's a nice catch that it matches the pattern seen on Revan's armor. Beyond the ring-with-four-spokes motif, we can also see strong hints of the three-rings-in-a-line pattern which is suggested on his armor and repeated on the obelisks. Together, it forms a pretty convincing argument that these things are related. However, there isn't much evidence beyond that. It identifies the place as his, but doesn't suggest any motive or intent. Revan has his own flag. But so do the houses on Alderaan, and they're not trying to overthrow the Republic or the Empire. The Mandalorians have their own flag/symbol. Czerka has its own symbol. Balmorran Arms has its own symbol. The symbol itself signifies nothing more than identity. Claiming that it might tell us that he's trying to overthrow either or both is guessing far beyond the evidence.

 

Note: I'm not trying to tear your discussion down, here. I'm actually trying to add to it, by providing counter-points. There is a lot of good discussion here, but I believe if we're looking for accuracy, we need to temper our assumptions with some degree of logical analysis.

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If nothing else Charles Boyd can get in here, read this, and maybe get a few cool ideas!

 

Yeah the more I look at that "Object" the less I think its a throne - it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the items and possesses it's own power source or something because it's lit up.

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Yeah the more I look at that "Object" the less I think its a throne - it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the items and possesses it's own power source or something because it's lit up.

 

If you look at the very start of the teaser, you can see the bottom of the "object". It has a base that repeats the circle-with-four-arms motif. It looks very non-throne-like.

 

It sort of matches what I remember of a closed star map from KoTOR, but I can't find any screenshots of what the starmaps looked like before they opened.

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Once again great post! Good discussion point as we wait for 3.0. Spoilers ahead!!!!

 

The obelisks you mention have been utilized by Bioware before in Mass Effect via the Protheans. It is what galvanized the entire plot of the trilogy. I could see them carrying over the same concept to this game for Revan. To give him true clarity.

 

The stances you posted though is what caught my eye the most. I think you hit on an excellent point of topic with that. Revan is facing the same foe in a very deja vu manner, but this time he seems more focused and sure of himself. Remember that when Revan went to battle with the Emperor the first time he had only recently reacquired his 'Reborn' powers after his duel with the Dark Council member. And we never really got to experience the full fight since Scourge's visions prompted him to enact his own plan and betray Revan. Revan is seemingly going into battle with the Sith Emperor again, but this time without the distractions of attachments and allies. I believe that is what Revan refers to when he speaks of removing distractions. The Revanites are just a tool to keep the Republic and Empire out of the way. He will most likely engage the Emperor alone and with his control of the light and dark sides of the Force strike the Emperor down once and for all.

 

Keep in mind that his allies during the first battle with the Emperor did help in leading to his defeat. T7 was destroyed. Meetra was killed. Scourge betrayed him. It is almost certain that the loss of his friends wounded him. The simple fact that he was able to hold back the Emperor's lightning alluded to the fact that he could have a shot at the Emperor, but Revan's love of his friends probably only fueled Scourge's decision to betray him. Revan would not be able to defeat the Emperor until he sacrificed all his bonds. Lord Scourge tries very hard to push the Hero of Tython in the same direction. To abandon his attachments and focus on the battle at hand. That is the Sith way. Revan Reborn Part III has come to understand that and is embracing it as he surrounds himself with fanatics he disfavors. Disposable tools that will clear the road to the Emperor and allow him a true rematch. I'd imagine by this point the Emperor will have recovered and taken a new form and then we will have the battle of the century.

 

I do believe Revan is the antagonist right now, but he is not the villain. I understand the doubts in Bioware regarding where they go with the story, but I do think they'll touch on a lot of these points. On Yavin IV we will battle Revan's forces for control of ancient Sith spirits or some other Rakatan artifact and from there understand what Revan's goal is and try and stop him. By the end of all of this the Emperor will return and the next saga of the game will begin. I doubt Revan will be defeated in 3.0, but that will begin his chapter in our game. He and the Emperor will be our Lich King plots.

 

Okay I have to go change my pants. I'm far too excited for 3.0 and beyond even if we only get a fraction of this. :D :D :D

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Last friday, I posted this fairly lengthy examination of how Revan and the Infinite Empire always come together, their connection acting as a beacon of sorts to herald discovery, exploration, if not rebirth. Along the way, I ended up cutting some other aspects, including imagery and symbolism present in the latest
.

 

For this thread I will try to focus on that but first, I'd like to invite you all to make a little journey with me. :D

 

- - - -

 

Forty six years ago, Stanley Kubrick directed and released a film by the name of "2001: A Space Odyssey". Based on a short story by Arthur C. Clarke called "The Sentinel", it was a watershed moment in the history of cinema, its influence still being felt far and wide.

 

The movie centers around mankind's gradual but sure evolution throughout history, from its humblest beginnings as early hominids to spaceflight. Along the way, viewers are confronted with black monoliths, each heralding newfound knowledge or understanding. Though their age is unknown at first, it is later revealed that one of the monoliths is approximately four million years old, their exact origins a mystery.

 

It is a tale that beautifully captures nightfall and dawn, death and rebirth, revelation and ascension.

 

I would say more but I have no desire to spoil the story for anyone who hasn't seen it yet, not to mention I've already delved into what matters most for this topic: the black monoliths.

 

It is time we go back to the Old Republic. :cool:

 

- - - -

 

Last week after the release of the

, I brought up the possibility of a connection between the spears seen in it and the ones from an early Galactic Timeline video, aptly called
.

 

In it, Jedi Master Gnost-Dural elaborates on Exar-Kun: The man he was, what drove him to seek out the legacy of the Ancient Sith and how he came to Yavin 4, assuming soon thereafter the mantle of Dark Lord.

 

All things considered however, the spears were merely the tip of the iceberg but more on that in a short bit. :cool:

 

- - - -

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regardless of its messenger or context, "rebirth" is a recurring motif that permeates many characters and lesser factions throughout the game. Their end-goals may vary of course but there is something they all share: A catalyst that precedes their would-be rebirth.

 

In the latest

, aside the spears I had mentioned earlier, we can see an object of some sort in the middle of the room, standing between two obelisks and a flag in the back. The obelisks appear to be chained to separate pillars, while the flag holds a remarkable resemblance to Revan's lower robe. In the middle of it all, Revan turns around, a red light emanating from his visor, and draws his lightsaber, keeping his off-hand holstered.

 

Let us try to ascertain their significance shall we? ;)

 

 

THE OBELISKS:

 

As mentioned earlier, one on each side, chained to separate pillars. Is it fair to assume they're meant to represent Revan's duality?

? The Destroyer and Protector?

 

Perhaps all that, plus a more obscure

?

 

Regardless, there's something else we may wish to consider: In ancient Egypt, obelisks were placed in pairs at the entrance of temples. They were meant to symbolize the sun god Ra, the ancient egyptians' most important deity. According to its article in Wikipedia, it was hypothesized that its shape derived "from natural phenomena associated with the sun", namely the "sunrise and sunset".

 

 

 

And what about the chains? Are they supposed to be imagery of an endless cycle from which Revan seeks deliverance? Perhaps at all cost?

 

 

THE FLAG:

 

Judging from the video yet again, there seems to be a similarity between the flag and Revan's lower robe; Such similarity is most likely intentional. Whether this means to imply that Revan wants to destroy both Republic and Empire and carve a New Empire of his own, similar to what he supposedly tried during the Jedi Civil War, remains to be seen.

 

Do note below why I say "supposedly":

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you still remember what Revan says to a Republic strike team, in Rakata Prime?

 

 

 

 

 

Earlier, G0-T0 claims that Revan never sought to destroy the Republic, that something else could have been looming on the horizon. Darth Traya on the other hand calls it by name, claiming that the True Sith, the remnants of the old Sith Empire, lie beyond the Outer Rim.

 

Even though we already went through part of it, they key here is that neither of them identify Revan as being an enemy of the Republic, that he never sought to destroy it to begin with.

 

In the latest flashpoint, Revan identifies the Republic as a "distraction" at best, that needs to be "swept aside". Whether this entails obliteration by any means necessary or simply neutralization is another matter. Regardless, he does say "distraction", as in "a thing that prevents someone from concentrating on something else."

 

 

THE OBJECT:

 

By far the most puzzling element in the teaser. What does it do? Is it a Sith artifact of some kind? Perhaps Rakata, from the time of the Infinite Empire? Or neither?

 

Even so, do you still remember Space Odyssey? The black monoliths and their role in that movie? Heralds of discovery, evolution and rebirth? Is it possible this object may have a similar role? Both a revelation and means of ascension?

 

If you'll indulge me for a while longer, it is time for a short interlude.

 

- - - -

 

Have you ever heard of "Jacob's Ladder"? In the Book of Genesis, it is described as:

 

 

As with so many other things in life, its interpretation may vary ever slightly depending on you ask. Since it's not my intention to question its interpretation, I'll solely focus on the part in bold and underlined.

 

- - - -

 

Back to the topic at hand... :D

 

Recently, I tried to clarify on Reddit what I meant earlier pertaining the connection between Revan and the Infinite Empire:

 

 

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but... :o

 

Is it fair to assume the lines are supposed to represent an upward movement? Some sort of ascension? A ladder or stairway similar to Jacob's Ladder? One that would permit ascending and descending simultaneously? Death and rebirth?

 

Time will tell.

 

 

REVAN'S THIRD EYE:

 

Would you still remember what the Trimūrti is by any chance?

 

No worries. ;)

 

 

 

For this exercise however, I shall focus in one element of the Trimūrti, namely Shiva... And the Third Eye the later possesses. Citing Wikipedia:

 

 

 

Is it possible that the red light emanating from his visor is supposed to represent exactly that?

 

Do note that Shiva, as destroyer / transformer of the Trimūrti, precedes Brahma the creator. As I said earlier:

 

 

 

 

REVAN'S STANCE:

 

Would you agree this stance is reminiscent of this one? The same armor all battered? The same hilt? The same enemy?

 

Perhaps a story for another time.

 

- - - -

- - - -

 

My full analysis of the teaser that is. :cool:

 

Assuming you read this far, I hope you enjoyed it and that it provides some food for thought until more details for 3.0 arrive. Cheerio!

 

A cool analysis. Thanks for sharing.

 

As you mentioned, I don't think EA will be letting the story become so in-depth. But especially regarding your insights on protector-destroyer-creator, I think you are spot on, with many of the ideas behind the Force coming from "Eastern" religions like Hinduism. Whether or not the story actually conveys this is another matter.

 

I'm not so sure I agree about the third eye. In SWTOR, glowing or colored eyes has consistently been associated with being possessed or under the influence of the Force in some way. Since it is red, I get the impression it has something to do with the dark side, maybe even the Emperor. We'll see.

 

EDIT: Since the CM is pretty reliable with leading up to upcoming content, Exar Kun's set leads me to believe Yavin IV is on its way. I hope there is more than one planet in the expansion, though.

Edited by arunav
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@Malastare:

 

Again, it is an interpretation, a visual analysis of the teaser we got, not much else. I'm not trying to pass things as facts or anything but more so provide points of reference here and there, as seen in other bodies of work.

 

* snip *

 

I thought of mentioning ME as well but then again, my sudden trauma with the Indoctrination Theory kicked in. That, compounded with Revan's history as someone else's minion, killed that idea fairly early on.

 

A cool analysis. Thanks for sharing.

 

As you mentioned, I don't think EA will be letting the story become so in-depth. But especially regarding your insights on protector-destroyer-creator, I think you are spot on, with many of the ideas behind the Force coming from "Eastern" religions like Hinduism. Whether or not the story actually conveys this is another matter.

 

I'm not so sure I agree about the third eye. In SWTOR, glowing or colored eyes has consistently been associated with being possessed or under the influence of the Force in some way. Since it is red, I get the impression it has something to do with the dark side, maybe even the Emperor. We'll see.

 

EDIT: Since the CM is pretty reliable with leading up to upcoming content, Exar Kun's set leads me to believe Yavin IV is on its way. I hope there is more than one planet in the expansion, though.

 

That's what I'm afraid of. Such a waste IMHO, if it turns out to be the case.

 

As if Revan didn't play the Emperor's b*tch enough times already. :rolleyes:

 

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