Conquest and Screwing PVPr's

[Zoom_VI]

That's no different than someone in 162 PvE gear getting carried through a NiM run(there are guilds that do those for a fee) and saying "you can do NiM Palace in 162 gear". I'm not saying you weren't a credit to your team, but really all that means is that your team's gear made up for yours, not that you can do a HM op in PvP gear. I doubt a full team of Brut would be able to do HM Palace. Good to know about the stat budget thing though, thanks.. This is all entirely off topic though.

 

I would point out that you can't carry a maintank. Besides the whole point of my argument is PvE'ers have no right to complain about someone coming into a flashpoint in PvP gear when PvP gear has better stats than the stuff that drops from flashpoints.

 

Of course this ties into a overaching issue in the PvE community where groups require people to already have the gear that the operation drops in order to take that person on said op.

 

This of course is a entirely different issue than the one at hand tho, since people in raiding gear coming into PvP for conquest is not just suboptimal, but outright detrimental to both them and their team. There is no carrying people that get killed in the first 6 seconds of combat.

[CloudzDeven]

This of course is a entirely different issue than the one at hand tho, since people in raiding gear coming into PvP for conquest is not just suboptimal, but outright detrimental to both them and their team. There is no carrying people that get killed in the first 6 seconds of combat.

 

Yea I almost wish we got bolsted to what 162 pvp gave you guys, but I guess that would hinder the whole point of pvp progression. On the bright side I stay alive for the first 8 seconds thanks for Force Barrier

[Warrgames]

Wat, PvP gear is 30k without augments, 32-33k with. 42k for tanks, assuming they are PvP optimized.

 

The one thing that pisses me off the most on the forums is people who think that PvP isn't good enough for basic PvE content. Brutalizer gear is better than the gear that drops from Hardmode flashpoints, brutalizer gear also has the same PvE stat budget as Arkanian gear, you can clear every single SM op in the game with a raid group entirely in PvP gear. Hell I cleared HM Palace on my VG in PvP gear, there is no call to be complaining about people being in PvP gear in HM flashpoints.

 

Expect that the 6k DPS you pull in a WZ isn't the same dps you pull in HM FP. PvP noobs seem to think that since they are in the best PvP gear than can own PvE content.

 

I PvP and PvE, there are same types of people in both community.

[Khevar]

Expect that the 6k DPS you pull in a WZ isn't the same dps you pull in HM FP. PvP noobs seem to think that since they are in the best PvP gear than can own PvE content.

Level 55 HM Flashpoints have a recommended gear level of 148.

 

Just think about that for a second. The old Partisan gear that came with 2.0 had 150 rating, and has long since been rendered obsolete by Conqueror (154), Obroan (158) and Brutalizer (162). Any PvPer in Brutalizer is wearing gear 3.5 tiers above the recommended level.

 

Gear is not the problem. You can wear Brutalizer into any flashpoint, any story mode operation, any level 50 HM/NM operation, HM TfB or HM SnV and not be undergeared.

[Zoom_VI]

Expect that the 6k DPS you pull in a WZ isn't the same dps you pull in HM FP. PvP noobs seem to think that since they are in the best PvP gear than can own PvE content.

 

I PvP and PvE, there are same types of people in both community.

 

I'm 100% positive I out dps (or on my tank, pull threat better) 95% of the people you will get in a GF anything.

 

I'm sorry but its true.

 

You need to stop assuming that because people are in PvP gear, they must be bad.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[CloudzDeven]

I'm 100% positive I out dps (or on my tank, pull threat better) 95% of the people you will get in a GF anything.

 

I'm sorry but its true.

 

95% of statistics are made up.

 

I'm sorry but its true.

[Zoom_VI]

95% of statistics are made up.

 

I'm sorry but its true.

 

touché

 

But still, the type of gear a person is wearing is not indicative of their skill or ability. If you must judge someone by their gear you should look to see if its min/maxed or aug'ed. Generally the "bad" players are the ones with neither, while the good players are the ones that do keep their gear in shape, regardless of weather that gear is PvP or PvE.

[CloudzDeven]

touché

 

But still, the type of gear a person is wearing is not indicative of their skill or ability. If you must judge someone by their gear you should look to see if its min/maxed or aug'ed. Generally the "bad" players are the ones with neither, while the good players are the ones that do keep their gear in shape, regardless of weather that gear is PvP or PvE.

 

For PvE I generally look at their achievements since anyone can grind HM 55 dailies to get 180 armor without doing a single operation. People can get carried through runs, but usually they'll stick with the people who carry them and they're usually guild members anyway. Seeing if they're min/maxed or if they have the right stats(i.e stats for a sorc dps is different than a sorc healer) is a good idea as well. I'm not sure what PvPers do to judge a person's "skill" besides looking at their gear though.

[LordArtemis]

Don't get me wrong, I have no desire to add lockouts to flashpoints or anything.

 

I realize that there are players that may want to run these over and over, and it doesn't bother or affect me in the slightest if they do so.

 

In other words, the current system for flashpoints in game is fine: Group Finder rewards are a "once per day per toon" for 55, 50, and tacs. But you can still queue again as many times as you want (or you can form a group directly, or you can solo if desired) for loot drops, decorations, experience, etc.

 

There is no reason to change it. It's all good.

 

Yeah, this is the main thing I'm arguing about. I believe the 2.9c change was a step in the right direction.

 

That said, I don't feel that the current conquest objectives are balanced. I do know they need more work. I just disagree with the idea that the solution is to revert the 2.9c change.

 

I would have to agree with you Khevar. I think it was a good change and should stay in place, but I would post the disclaimer that I do not participate in the Conquest system.

 

So take my comments as you will.

Edited September 16, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Rheshalea]

Thanks for this!

 

I'm a casual PvE:er with no experience at all in SWTOR PvP. I do want to do the conquest thing, but I've been very hesitant to join up and embarrass myself.

However, I'm not the kind to AFK my way through. If I do join up I will at least try to do some good for my team, even if I'd most probably only be cannon fodder, at least until I figure out how things work.

 

Point is, as long as there are AFKers, maybe you'll hate on the active newbies a bit less.

[ValeGreiger]

The reward HAS to be made so that it can only be attained by victory. Already I see players joining a warzone, taking guard duty and going AFK whilst the rest of us wonder "*** are you doing 5 of them are attacking - call incs!". If the reward is ramped up to 1000 or maybe even 1500 for a VICTORY then players will take PVP with a degree of effort and we may finally see some decent games since 2.9.

 

Reminds me of this node guard we had in Aldeeran? (its the one with 3 nodes that look like a triangle on the map). Not only he doesn't call but he lets me get killed right in front of him as the enemy team invaded ours. He does this about two to three more times before finally deciding to afk right after jumping down from the base's platform.

[Leafy_Bug]

Rewards based on victories? So group finder rewards for PVP-ers on completion are fine but we need to only win warzones as 'pve-ers' to get conquest points? Good luck with that and I hope they do it on your server because on TOFN, to do your ranked arena weekly takes 3-4 days if you are not an uber pvp god in an uber pvp guild who roflstomps everyone. I am talking about normal queue times and not queues at 3 am to insta win and abuse the system.

 

I will definitely agree on getting conquest points for winning, if BW forces only competitive arenas and for PVP-ers group finder Gives DF NiM and DP NIM pops to get conquest points. Highest tier of PVP with the highest tier of pve. Both parties experience the best the game has to offer. Go go, Brontes NiM, just an NPC, should be easy for PVP-ers!

Edited September 17, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

[Drockter]

Honestly, I don't see the issue with the Win providing more points.

 

If you compare to GF Ops as a point gaining... if you have a bad group, and fail to finish the ops... you get 0 Conquest points. Same with FPs, and several other PvE Conquest point mechanisms.

 

Failure is an option, with most things (other than Crafting), I've never had (ever) a started crafting project fail.

 

Now, the likelihood of failing a FP or Op is low (in most cases), where as PvP is 50% chance... every time. So with that there should be a participation point system (I like the medal idea), as well as extra points for the win.

 

Edit: The points can't be awarded (participation points) just for showing up.. that incentivizes the exact behavior of people just AFK'ing in the match and still gaining rewards.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Drockter

[Drockter]

For the record: I also think there should be Open World PvP conquest points (i.e. Killed X Players on <Insert Contested Planet Here>)

[TUXs]

Thanks for this!

 

I'm a casual PvE:er with no experience at all in SWTOR PvP. I do want to do the conquest thing, but I've been very hesitant to join up and embarrass myself.

However, I'm not the kind to AFK my way through. If I do join up I will at least try to do some good for my team, even if I'd most probably only be cannon fodder, at least until I figure out how things work.

 

Point is, as long as there are AFKers, maybe you'll hate on the active newbies a bit less.

Everyone starts somewhere...don't ever be embarrassed by how you do in PvP. Trying to do your best is all anyone could ask you for. Your willingness to try it, already earns you my respect...the rest comes from experience.

 

WZ's are 10-15 minutes of white knuckled fighting...stick with it!!! And STAY CALM!!!! If you're DPSing, always attack someone with a target marker...someone put it there for a reason! If you're healing, stay back...you aren't expected to DPS. If you're a tank, taunt taunt taunt...and guard!!! Use the scoreboard at the end to figure out what others might have been doing that you weren't (healers healing, tanks taunting, DPS damaging). Don't worry about where you placed, just worry about what you did and what you could do better next time. A WZ win seldom comes if most players aren't at the top of their game.

[TUXs]

Now, the likelihood of failing a FP or Op is low (in most cases), where as PvP is 50% chance... every time. So with that there should be a participation point system (I like the medal idea), as well as extra points for the win.

 

Edit: The points can't be awarded (participation points) just for showing up.. that incentivizes the exact behavior of people just AFK'ing in the match and still gaining rewards.

I'm a huge proponent of medal based points. 200 points for entering, 250 for a win, and 25 per medal (8 is the cap so that's 200 more max). That incentivises participation and makes AFKing unreasonable. There will always be those who try to buck the system, basing it on medals mostly, would lower the allure of easy points. Heck, we could even make it 100 for entering, 50 pt bonus awarded at 2, 4, 6 and 8 4 medals and keep the 25 points per medal...I just think rewarding those who participate, win or lose, is needed.

[Elminster_cs]

I'm a huge proponent of medal based points. 200 points for entering, 250 for a win, and 25 per medal (8 is the cap so that's 200 more max). That incentivises participation and makes AFKing unreasonable. There will always be those who try to buck the system, basing it on medals mostly, would lower the allure of easy points. Heck, we could even make it 100 for entering, 50 pt bonus awarded at 2, 4, 6 and 8 4 medals and keep the 25 points per medal...I just think rewarding those who participate, win or lose, is needed.

 

Mmmm no TUXs, for me is a bad idea. Medal farmers... remind me old times here, bad times

[TUXs]

Mmmm no TUXs, for me is a bad idea. Medal farmers... remind me old times here, bad times

How is that any worse? I'm open to other suggestions, but I guess I don't see where this would cause any real issue? Even if someone is just farming medals, they'd have to be participating to get them right? If they wanna guard a node, go for it. Tanks taunt to get medals, healers heal to get medals, DPS dps for medals...at least they'd have to be actively participating to get any...right?

[Drockter]

That incentivises participation and makes AFKing unreasonable.

 

I'm good with that Tuxs, making AFK'ing unreasonable is the key.

[Elminster_cs]

How is that any worse? I'm open to other suggestions, but I guess I don't see where this would cause any real issue? Even if someone is just farming medals, they'd have to be participating to get them right? If they wanna guard a node, go for it. Tanks taunt to get medals, healers heal to get medals, DPS dps for medals...at least they'd have to be actively participating to get any...right?

 

Actually with "win give more" in EU server (TRE) I don't see a very bib problem. Actually the exploit is on operation... but really less player know about it.

 

I found that is pretty well balance how you gain conquest point, just one thing: for me H on a planets (like nar shaddaa or balmorra) give too much points. That's all for me.

 

Main issue is with the zergling guild, but this is another topic