Guild Ships: Lowering the Base Price, Increasing the Upgrade Price

[DarthTHC]

"Lazy"? I'm not the one who thinks sitting in front of his computer screen pushing buttons for days on end to collect virtual credits is acceptable. I'm the opposite of that person.

 

Yeah, the reason is, it's not "fun". 50 million isn't easy to come by. 50 million is unheard of by me and extreme by any account. 50 million is also where the price STARTS!!! Not the final cost, which is an additional 140 million.

 

Grinding that many credits in a game that has suffered with player retention as much as SWTOR has, is insane!

 

50 million isn't "extreme" for an individual, let alone a guild that will be able to effectively participate in conquests (a PvE activity).

 

50 million could be challenging for an individual who hasn't thought about or set up to make credits. On the other hand, it might take an individual who is pretty successful at making credits 4-6 weeks to make that.

 

But we're not talking individuals. We're talking guilds. And if guilds take the path of grinding credits in dailies (which seems to be a measure everyone is familiar with, though it's certainly not the most efficient method), and 12 members of the guild do that for 2 hours per week each, they will generate somewhere along the lines of 3,000,000 credits a week. Is 2 hours per week "extreme"? I don't think so.

 

So to get to that 50 mil, that guild will have to do that decidedly not extreme stuff for about 17 weeks.

 

Guild flagships were announced about 20 weeks ago. Had they started then, they'd be done with extra cash on hand. All without getting "extreme".

 

Guild flagship prices were clearly hinted at during the April Cantina Tour event. That happened about 15 weeks ago. Had a guild paid attention back then and started then instead of at the announcement, well, 17 weeks is up right at release so they could get a flagship right at release. Again, without getting "extreme".

 

Finally, if a guild managed to completely ignore the information coming out from BioWare that flagships would require credits, and a lot of them, and just started last week when pricing was made blatantly clear to even the tone deaf, well, if they want a flagship at release they're going to have to get "extreme", but they could still decide to take 17 weeks to get one and be not at all "extreme".

 

No, 50 mil for a guild isn't "extreme". Not even close.

 

And yes, I did use dailies in my example. Don't like dailies? Do something else. Like I said, dailies aren't the most efficient way of getting credits. They're far from the only way. Not spending credits you don't absolutely have to spend is a good start, regardless what content you play.

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[TheBBP]

So go get into the door. Getting in the door and working from there - the delta between entry and fully configured - sounds like it's around 90 million.

 

If you can do 90, why can't you do 50?

 

Becoming fully equipped could take a long while for us. I don't mind that. I want in the door. I want to be in it while I work toward making it better. In no way does a lower entry price cheapen the achievement of getting it fully equipped.

[TUXs]

50 million isn't "extreme" for an individual, let alone a guild that will be able to effectively participate in conquests (a PvE activity).

Yeah, we all know you like it and support it, I doubt anyone who has read these forums is surprised by your support.

 

I disagree though. I think 50mil is excessive for guilds.

[DarthTHC]

Yeah, we all know you like it and support it, I doubt anyone who has read these forums is surprised by your support.

 

I disagree though. I think 50mil is excessive for guilds.

 

Back it up. Describe your guild. Describe what you think would be acceptable effort. Describe based on that what you think a reasonable cost would be.

 

Do that within the clear constraint that it's credits, not your idea of multiple quest lines, and convince BioWare to reduce the price.

[TheBBP]

Back it up. Describe your guild. Describe what you think would be acceptable effort. Describe based on that what you think a reasonable cost would be.

 

Do that within the clear constraint that it's credits, not your idea of multiple quest lines, and convince BioWare to reduce the price.

 

Back what up? His opinion? Opinions do not require any backing up lol.

[TUXs]

Back it up. Describe your guild. Describe what you think would be acceptable effort. Describe based on that what you think a reasonable cost would be.

 

Do that within the clear constraint that it's credits, not your idea of multiple quest lines, and convince BioWare to reduce the price.

 

Until I know exactly WHAT Galactic Conquest entails, I don't know.

 

Honestly, if it's just a way to make me do the dailies on Ilum or some such crap like that, it won't be worth 1mil. If it's NEW content, it shouldn't be gated by a 50mil price. If it's something in-between, it's not worth 50 mil.

[DarthTHC]

Until I know exactly WHAT Galactic Conquest entails, I don't know.

 

Honestly, if it's just a way to make me do the dailies on Ilum or some such crap like that, it won't be worth 1mil. If it's NEW content, it shouldn't be gated by a 50mil price. If it's something in-between, it's not worth 50 mil.

 

Right, I know you're a PvP guy. If the ship is just PvE dailies, even if it's a new PvE area the size of Oricon, it seems like it carries little to no value for you so you don't want it so why care what it costs?

 

What you all need is some good PvP content!

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Vandicus]

Back what up? His opinion? Opinions do not require any backing up lol.

 

In this case TUX's opinion pertains to a state of reality, namely that 50 million is an extreme sum for guilds to acquire in SWTOR.

 

DarthTHC and others have gone to some length to provide evidence that 50 million is not an enormous sum for guilds of varying sizes to acquire.

 

If it were simply a matter of taste, it wouldn't require backing up.

[DarthTHC]

Back what up? His opinion? Opinions do not require any backing up lol.

 

You might look around these forums to find gold posts that describe the type of feedback BioWare finds helpful.

 

"I don't like it," is something they gloss over.

 

"I don't like it for these specific reasons and I think you could improve it by doing these specific things," is something they pay a lot more attention to.

 

TUXs has done that with his specific suggestions for making acquisition based on series of quests, which is a stellar idea, so he is capable of it and knows it's important to provide constructive feedback.

 

He just hasn't done it specifically with the credit cost.

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[TheBBP]

You might look around these forums to find gold posts that describe the type of feedback BioWare finds helpful.

 

"I don't like it," is something they gloss over.

 

"I don't like it for these specific reasons and I think you could improve it by doing these specific things," is something they pay a lot more attention to.

 

TUXs has done that with his specific suggestions for making acquisition based on series of quests, which is a stellar idea, so he is capable of it and knows it's important to provide constructive feedback.

 

He just hasn't done it specifically with the credit cost.

 

This thread as the OP has presented is a great example of very good feedback. Your stance of "Pay 50mil or do without." is nowhere near constructive.

 

The idea presented here in this thread opens the door for many more others to get in but in no way diminishes the value or achievement of fully kitting out and upgrading the guild flagship.

[Khevar]

The debate on being able to make 50 million is WELL covered in many other threads in this forum.

 

I had hoped (and still hoped) that this particular thread could be a venue to bring the two sides together by reducing the base price, while increasing the upgrade price, such that the total price remains the same.

 

Would it be all right to shift back to this focus, please?

[Tsillah]

For me the problem is a little different. I think there's a lot of information lacking and you really need to filter stuff and find out what the deal is exactly. I still don't know exactly how it all works but I think I am starting to have an idea, also thanks to a post by DarthTHC here.

 

It looks like guild conquest stuff is going to be involved. So a guild really needs to have active people and enough of them to make it work. That makes this stuff for a specific group of players, namely active guilds who want to do something else than ops.

 

It makes it less for the general populace but so is pvp and so are ops so that's fair enough. The entry cost of 50 million then makes more sense because it's an indication of the involvement required for such content.

 

It seems that this is also why there will be personal conquest stuff to let everybody have a taste of what this content is about.

 

So where did it all go wrong? Assuming that what I've learned now is true, it's good old poor communication of the devs. Getting an idea what things are about is like pulling teeth with these guys. I hate to be negative towards them but that's a lesson they haven't learned: communicating with customers.

 

My thought is also that a lot of people probably would've wanted a spaceship as their hangout rather than a copy of one of their strongholds. That's the other mistake. Not sure what a guild stronghold will cost btw, so perhaps someone else knows. But if you want a ship for a hangout (which would make sense really) then this is not the first purpose of it.

 

I think that's why this topic exploded on the forum as well. I would hope hat BW stops being so secretive and cryptic about their content releases. Honestly it's annoying to have to go get information together in this way, trying to make sense of it and what it all means.

 

So solutions like this are not needed from my point of view as I can see now that the credit wall is not there so much to gate the content as to give the guild an idea what they're up against. Just wish they had had an alternative solution for people who just wanted a spaceship as a guild hangout.

 

Again this is all based on the assumption that this explanation of why there's a 50 mill credit wall is correct. The problem as always is lack of clear information from BW.

[DarthTHC]

This thread as the OP has presented is a great example of very good feedback. Your stance of "Pay 50mil or do without." is nowhere near constructive.

 

The idea presented here in this thread opens the door for many more others to get in but in no way diminishes the value or achievement of fully kitting out and upgrading the guild flagship.

 

You misconstrue my stance. Nicely done. Surest way to win the debate is to put your words into both sides of it.

 

My stance has always been: Substantiate your claim that 50 mil is too much with reason and information beyond, "I don't like it". When challenged to substantiate my support for 50 mil, I did so.

 

You claim to know my stance, then you should know that another poster has done exactly that and convinced me that her target of 30 mil was reasonable. Maybe her argument - rational thought, numbers, thougthful opinions on what her guild finds reasonable, will convince BioWare, too. That's the goal, right?

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[TheBBP]

You misconstrue my stance. Nicely done. Surest way to win the debate is to put your words into both sides of it.

 

My stance has always been: Substantiate your claim that 50 mil is too much with reason and information beyond, "I don't like it". When challenged to substantiate my support for 50 mil, I did so.

 

You claim to know my stance, then you should know that another poster has done exactly that and convinced me that her target of 30 mil was reasonable. Maybe her argument - rational thought, numbers, thougthful opinions on what her guild finds reasonable, will convince BioWare, too. That's the goal, right?

 

Are you going to explain how a lower entry point cheapens the accomplishment of fully outfitting a Guild Flagship if the overall price stands?

 

For me and my guild (as well as many others) 50 million is too many credits to get into the door for Guild Flagships. You don't get to demand that we to validate our opinions to you. You aren't sitting in a big enough chair that I feel that I should have to convince you that my opinion is indeed my opinion. In these forums we get to state our opinion. You can debate it, but you do not get to demand that we validate it to you.

Edited August 1, 2014 by TheBBP

[DarthTHC]

For me and my guild (as well as many others) 50 million is too many credits to get into the door for Guild Flagships. You don't get to demand that we to validate our opinions to you. You aren't sitting in a big enough chair that I feel that I should have to convince you that my opinion is indeed my opinion. In these forums we get to state our opinion. You can debate it, but you do not get to demand that we validate it to you.

 

Don't validate your opinions to me. Validate them to BioWare.

 

BioWare has asked for that to be provided right here on this forum... so be as mad at me for reiterating their request as you want. Cut that nose right off because you hate your face. Knock yourself out.

 

Leave it at, "We don't like it," and take your chances that for the first time ever, BioWare considers unsubstantiated player feedback as gospel and makes changes based on that.

 

Either way, I'll be walking around in my guild's two flagships and participating in conquests on August 19th.

 

Will you?

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[DarthOvertone]

I've been convinced of 30 million.

 

30 Million credits sounds much more reasonable to me for a Guild Ship with no unlocks.

 

 

I fully expect that we'll end up seeing cheaper models of ships(as well as more expensive ones) in the future.

 

Pretty sure a Yellow Name has already stated this would be the case. I believe it was in a thread on the PTS, but can't recall for certain. I remember reading somewhere though that different and smaller versions of Guild Ships would be made available. No timeline was provided however.

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthOvertone

[TheBBP]

They shouldn't launch guild ships until they have these other versions available. It's like dropping a Nightmare Mode Operation into the game and telling us to wait for the Story Mode.

[DarthTHC]

They shouldn't launch guild ships until they have these other versions available. It's like dropping a Nightmare Mode Operation into the game and telling us to wait for the Story Mode.

 

What they shouldn't do is drop the big ones into the game without telling people clearly and plainly that smaller ones are on the way and giving a rough idea for timeframe, cost, and capabilities.

 

Release it, with that info, and let people make their own decisions about how to proceed.

 

Choices + personal accountability = win.

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Lotharofxev]

Does Bioware / EA need a "common sense administrator"?

 

Step 1 - Somebody has a GFI (Good friggin idea)

 

Step 2 - Said idea is floated at a formal meeting

 

Step 3 - After the mandatory vertical head motion by all the folks said GFI creator outranks on the executive totem pole, the CSA steps in.

 

Here's how that goes:

 

Exec_w/_GFI: "The masses have been clamoring for housing, legacy storage and Guild ships. Personally I've always wanted a Galaxy type like from the opening scene of Episode 4. "

 

(Nobody has enough testicular fortitude to tell said exec that Galaxy-class ships are from Star Trek)

 

Sycophants (In unison): "Great idea boss!"

 

Exec_w/_GFI:"But let's not make it 'too easy' to get (Does finger quote thing). Say 50 million?"

 

Sycophants (in unison): "Genius call boss!"

 

Exec_w/_GFI: "Oh, oh, oh, and we can tie owning that ship to the new upcoming content release!"

 

Sycophants (in unison): "That's brilliant boss!"

 

CSA: /clears throat

 

Room: Moan.

 

CSA: "First off, 50 million is a random figure pulled out of thin air. Second, what are guilds that either: a) can't afford 50 million or b) wants a smaller ship for a lesser amount supposed to do?

 

"Next, are you seriously proposing tying content to a 50 million credit gate?

 

Exec_w/_GFI: "Well they can farm or do dailies or something - right?" Looks at Sycophants for help

 

Sycophants: "That's right boss!"

 

CSA:" Ahh, so instead of, oh I dunno, PLAYING the game, you want to turn SWTOR into an online, futuristic version of Farmville?"

 

Exec_w/_GFI: "Well how long can it take for a guild of 1000 people to make 50 million?"

 

Sycophants: (Lack moral courage to tell Boss that guild's are limited to 500 people, not individual accounts)

 

CSA: "You tell me. How long did it take the in-house guild to raise that money?"

 

Exec_W/_GFI: "I dunno, if we need credits we just hit a few keystrokes"

 

CSA: /facepalm

[DarthTHC]

CSA: "First off, 50 million is a random figure pulled out of thin air. Second, what are guilds that either: a) can't afford 50 million or b) wants a smaller ship for a lesser amount supposed to do?

 

Entertaining... but that part I left there in the quote is patently false. BioWare has stated that they based the price tag upon an analysis of all the data they have about guilds & credits. 50M wasn't pulled out of thin air, no matter how much you might like to think it was.

 

Also, these forums are the CSA. Wouldn't it be interesting if people could act like that and write thoughtful, constructive responses that clearly and in detail describe why they don't like the price and provide rationale for a different price... sorta like what BioWare asked for... and sorta like the OP has done... instead of this silly sort of diatribe you've added?

Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Lotharofxev]

@ Darththc - I can find 10 economists that think debt = wealth. Doesn't make it true. Based on the CSA's on this board, 50 million is not insignificant.

[TheBBP]

"Next, are you seriously proposing tying content to a 50 million credit gate?

 

Herein lies the biggest issue of all. From what we have learned of Galactic Conquest, all of that new content is COMPLETELY geared toward large guilds. Small guilds have no chance of capturing a planet even if they have 50 million credits to put down for a Flagship.

 

So not only is the asking price absurd, the content that it is gating is just another set of dailies for small guilds.

 

I do apologize for derailing your thread further, OP. Your idea still is a great one. I still hope that it gets proper attention.

[DarthTHC]

@ Darththc - I can find 10 economists that think debt = wealth. Doesn't make it true. Based on the CSA's on this board, 50 million is not insignificant.

 

Based just on the ones you agree with, that is?

 

Based on the sum total of responses across the General and PTS forums, some are fine with 50, some think it's too much, very few who think it's too much have articulated and supported alternatives, and some think it should maybe be higher.

 

This thread is about articulating support for changing the pricing model. Do you intend to contribute to that discussion?

[Lotharofxev]

This thread is about articulating support for changing the pricing model. Do you intend to contribute to that discussion?

 

Do YOU?

[DarthTHC]

Do YOU?

 

Aside from what I have on Page 1 and correcting your misstatements you mean?