Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Chirikyat Ascendancy vs Republic Resistance

[tunewalker]

Oh, and about that Terentatek...

 

was the point to show that a not fully trained Sith who largely uses Force powers on something that is supposed to be resistant to force powers can easily beat it?

Edited July 7, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

was the point to show that a not fully trained Sith who largely uses Force powers on something that is supposed to be resistant to force powers can easily beat it?

 

uh, no (remember who that "not fully trained sith" and their companion is.) Plus, the fact they use mostly the force is purely game mechanics as there is no official word on if the Sorc or Assassin is the actual advanced class.

 

It was a response to this post lol.

I call them Black Metal, or Death Metal if you prefer, Rancors. I just can't imagine them running into battle without that genre as a sound track.

[tunewalker]

uh, no (remember who that "not fully trained sith" and their companion is.) Plus, the fact they use mostly the force is purely game mechanics as there is no official word on if the Sorc or Assassin is the actual advanced class.

 

It was a response to this post lol.

 

They still arent fully trained and get smacked down by ANOTHER sith later on like they are a child because they have yet to garner the other powers they need to be truly strong.

 

This means as of that point, they are a little above average and thats it or at least that was my understanding from the rest of the story.

 

 

Terentatek can still be taken down by heavy blaster fire, remember I said they might destroy a few clones before the clones bring them down. They can still be beaten by 2-3 PT knights. and Windu could likely take out 2 on his own honestly especially since revan did.

 

Edit: the first part is meant to be some what playful dont take offense to it, I am screwing with you Terentatek are supposed to take out force sensitives, but they still have vulnerabilities range blasters can still take them down and even their targets working together ARE capable of taking them down.

Edited July 7, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

Clones can move stealthily as well, its called flanking it happens all the time regardless if the enemy is more "mobile" a squad of troops can flank and get a rocket off easy enough

Clones aren't known for being stealthy and besides, the Massassi and Sun Guard are extremely good sentries, there is little chance they'd get very far from their own lines.

 

Also, they better hope they bring armored support (which is not so stealthy) if they try to flank or the Massassi and Terentatek will be unimpeded in butchering those poor suckers.

 

Also again in transit Basilisk are in the Air, Clones arent retarded if out on a scouting mission or preping to take down a Known Basilisk troop in coming they will use the trees as cover of sight and rocket down quite a few droids before snipers even know they are there.

The snipers would see them move out from the convoy long before they were in position to take out any Basilisks. Those nice white suits of armor stand out pretty darn well, and the Heavy troopers never got a camo pattern.

 

Juggernauts and Tank droids have enough firepower to destroy heavy vehicles and Star fighters, both of which are tougher then these trees. Yes if your deep in the forest you will be difficult nearly impossible to hit, but if you are playing wack-a-mole you need to be close enough for clean shots else the shot at distance could become to inaccurate.

Again, you severely underestimate the range of those missiles Tune. They're missiles for gods sake, they have quite the range. Actually considering the difference between missiles and rockets, they probably have a greater effective range than the clone's counters.

 

Again, this isn't to destroy the RR entirely. It forces them to be more aggressive or withdraw to their base. It isn't an insta-win move it is a "force your opponent to do something" move.

Even deep in the Forest again a Clone trooper is smaller and stealthier then these droids they can and will flank. The trees will provide them just as much coverage and in the proper position you will be covered by percisely Jack squat, thats the point of flanking.

 

At the start they have more ordanance and heavy firepower to take out the Basilisk droids then the droids have to wipe out the enemies they need to.

How exactly are these "stealthy" squads of men in white armor supposed to get past Massassi & Sun Guard sentries in order to get close enough to these Basilisk War Droids?

 

And their ranged combat ability will also be precisely Jack squat. They'd be massacred by Massassi before they got close. Remember there are 4k of them positioned in the forest between the clones and the Basilisks. You'd never get a clone force large enough to matter to maneuver through the thick jungle stealthily and strike the flank of the CA lines before a horde of Massassi annihilated that force.

 

And the Basilisks just need to harass with their missiles. Kill a few UT-AT's or tank droids for free and force the enemy to do something. They don't need a ton of missiles, just enough to force the RR into a bad position.

 

Just to give an idea

 

 

This is modern weaponry, actually its kind of old at this point. In a similarly thick jungle, WITH OUT tanks and heavy weapons these Juggs and tank droids will bring. You pop your head out and you better run either they flank you or they get a lucky shot off thanks to battle meditation or they just levy so much fire power on you that you die, as far as that running goes "On the ground, Basilisk droids were typically slow and lumbering" the only way you are getting any where is through the air, which leaves you vulnerable to Anti-air equipment. If you go through the ground. See video above, but this time the enemy isnt gone before that forest is leveled and this time they can see you.

 

Yes they will begin to run out of ammo such as Rockets and the like, but I have never heard of some one running out of Blaster power in just a few weeks even if they are constantly firing at one another. They have enough clips.

There are no RR flanking attacks and that jungle is not only less dense than Yavin IV, but it shows how the more predatory natives with reasonable ranged weapons can make life hell for a less adapted foot soldier trying to muck around. It took them screaming and running and firing a ton of weapons before they stopped it. also if you looked, they couldn't see the thing till they were literally on top of it. Kinda sad when the CA has the better Melee fighters huh. Edited July 7, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[StarSquirrel]

but they still have vulnerabilities range blasters can still take them down and even their targets working together ARE capable of taking them down.

 

Yeah I got that the first part was just you messing with me. Still, this part is as well right?

 

They had hides as thick as rancors, and rancor hides deflect small-arms fire Tune, you know that. Their weakness would be getting shot by the RR's vehicle's cannons. Clones would not stand a chance without anti-vehicle weapons and the RR only has so many of those and apparently most are busy trying to blow up Basilisks.

Edited July 7, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[tausra]

Essentially Star, what I think it comes down to is what your forces are doing, because they can't be defending basilisks and killing RR troops all at once. You can't have your entire force active at one time (because otherwise you wont have any reserves or anyone ready for night raids) and committing to the defense of the Basilisks is a serious effort. I would wager 20-30 Massassi per basilisk to ensure their safety.

[tunewalker]

Stealth does not require field generators or even camoed equipment.

 

See Star wars: The clone Wars Season 4 episode 8 The General

 

Also See Season 4 episode 9

 

See same episode for effectively combating arial enemies until they start running out of ordinance and the Jedi General just wont give them any more even though he has plenty to spare.

 

I wil hit the other points as I get to them.

 

Also note that you dont jsut ahve to worry about Heavy troopers, but Anti-air Troopers as well. There is a slight difference just wanting to be clear there.

 

 

Edit: the whole "missiles and rockets thing"

 

Anti-air Clone Troopers whom used specailised missiles to destroy air targets. The ones that will be shooting them out of the sky use missiles specifically designed to get targets ussually out of reach. They are designed to kill what you are trying to not have die.

 

 

Edit 2: you arent moving your entire force even if you are they are still not all concentrated, they have other things to fight. Flanking with proper equipment to take down a Basilisk would take all of about 2 squads to get through while the other 2300 keep the Massassi busy.

 

 

Edit 3: again there are plenty of ways to flank, clones do it ALL THE TIME. That creature in the video was not a native.... the Humans were the Native. And of course they cant see the thing, its invisible, its cloaked they are a modern human squad fighting a never before heard of or seen alien species that has the ability to cloak and plasma technology. Your big Bulky Droids arent cloaked they know where to shoot. I dont have a clue what the last part of that arguement was about at all for you.

 

Also what the hell makes you think that Jungle is less dense then Yavin 4, from the shot of the Fighters taking off in Episode IV versus all the times we see the Jungle in Predator I am pretty sure the Predator Jungle is thicker.

Edited July 7, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Yeah I got that the first part was just you messing with me. Still, this part is as well right?

 

They had hides as thick as rancors, and rancor hides deflect small-arms fire Tune, you know that. Their weakness would be getting shot by the RR's vehicle's cannons. Clones would not stand a chance without anti-vehicle weapons and the RR only has so many of those and apparently most are busy trying to blow up Basilisks.

 

Does small arms fire mean blaster pistols? I am not sure a Rancor's hide can stand up to Rifles for very long.

 

Not doubting it can take several hits (again see it will likely kill several clones before being taken down) but it will go down to concentrated standard blaster fire. Even Rancors do last I checked.

Edited July 7, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

Essentially Star, what I think it comes down to is what your forces are doing, because they can't be defending basilisks and killing RR troops all at once. You can't have your entire force active at one time (because otherwise you wont have any reserves or anyone ready for night raids) and committing to the defense of the Basilisks is a serious effort. I would wager 20-30 Massassi per basilisk to ensure their safety.

 

20-30 for say 15 Basilisks (as you said, reserves) comes out to 375 Massassi on guard duty and that's about 10% of the total Massassi army. So yeah, I think I can.

 

Not to mention, those reserve Massassi can be camped between the Basilisk's positions and the RR's forward lines some 100+ meters away providing that buffer.

[StarSquirrel]

Does small arms fire mean blaster pistols? I am not sure a Rancor's hide can stand up to Rifles for very long.

 

Not doubting it can take several hits (again see it will likely kill several clones before being taken down) but it will go down to concentrated standard blaster fire. Even Rancors do last I checked.

"The skin of a rancor was tough enough to deflect blaster bolts, making it an efficient killing machine"

 

Take it how you want to, but that right there is the evidence. Concentrated fire might help, but how will they concentrate fire if say 10-20 Massassi are charging them alongside this thing?

[tunewalker]

"The skin of a rancor was tough enough to deflect blaster bolts, making it an efficient killing machine"

 

Take it how you want to, but that right there is the evidence. Concentrated fire might help, but how will they concentrate fire if say 10-20 Massassi are charging them alongside this thing?

 

Because they have vehicles like the Juggernaught and Heavy droid tanks and such all shooting, not to mention the Massassi have to get closer then the Clone do as well. Multi tasking is a thing.

[StarSquirrel]

Stealth does not require field generators or even camoed equipment.

 

See Star wars: The clone Wars Season 4 episode 8 The General

 

Also See Season 4 episode 9

 

See same episode for effectively combating arial enemies until they start running out of ordinance and the Jedi General just wont give them any more even though he has plenty to spare.

 

I wil hit the other points as I get to them.

 

Also note that you dont jsut ahve to worry about Heavy troopers, but Anti-air Troopers as well. There is a slight difference just wanting to be clear there.

Wait, so you show me perhaps the biggest bloodbath the 501st (an elite unit anyways) ever suffered and call that your proof that they're stealthy and good against air?

 

Heck I see them get ambushed and suffer heavily to an aerial assault before damaging only 2 of the enemy fighters. Heck they couldn't do much at all against that aerial threat till they captured an enemy fighter.

 

Try again.

[StarSquirrel]

Because they have vehicles like the Juggernaught and Heavy droid tanks and such all shooting, not to mention the Massassi have to get closer then the Clone do as well. Multi tasking is a thing.

 

I get the Juggernaut and tank droid seriously. That makes sense, but you were talking exclusively in the case of clones or clones + jedi vs. Terentatek & Massassi. In that case it is severely skewed against the clones.

[tausra]

"The skin of a rancor was tough enough to deflect blaster bolts, making it an efficient killing machine"

 

Take it how you want to, but that right there is the evidence. Concentrated fire might help, but how will they concentrate fire if say 10-20 Massassi are charging them alongside this thing?

 

I'd call it a waste of Massassi. Terentatek are jedi bloodhounds with serious offense. If Kun can indeed mass produce, then I'd use the Terentatek to hunt down the jedi and force the expenditure of resources. If there are 10 convoys headed to the base, but only 5 have Jedi, let out your terentatek and they'll find out where they are. Sure, they'll die, but in the process you force the enemy to commit resources to your fodder and let your night raids know where to hit hardest.

[tunewalker]

Wait, so you show me perhaps the biggest bloodbath the 501st (an elite unit anyways) ever suffered and call that your proof that they're stealthy and good against air?

 

Heck I see them get ambushed and suffer heavily to an aerial assault before damaging only 2 of the enemy fighters. Heck they couldn't do much at all against that aerial threat till they captured an enemy fighter.

 

Try again.

 

Um you realize that was all because the general was sabotaging them right... the whole way through.

 

They shouldnt have succeeded at all.

 

Did 2 clones successfully sneak there way into a gaurded base? Let me think.... yes.

 

Were they destroying enemy fighters fairly well even though the general was sabotaging them leading them into a trap until they ran out of anti air missile? again yes.

 

Did they effectively fight in the trees with out the proper back up or support they would have gotten from any one else? Yes.

 

 

Is this proof of effective jungle fighting and stealthy movements? yes.

 

Is there proof later in that same arc about learning to adapt to their enviroment and letting it fight for them? Yes.

 

 

Edit: should be noted in my analysis, I gave the Sun guard the same possibilites. And I still believe them to have those same abilities. People can flank. Especially people with proper training and enough of a distraction, both teams have this.

Edited July 7, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

I get the Juggernaut and tank droid seriously. That makes sense, but you were talking exclusively in the case of clones or clones + jedi vs. Terentatek & Massassi. In that case it is severely skewed against the clones.

 

Not really the Jedi outnumber the Terentatek by more then 2:1, The Terentatek are Force blood hounds, the Jedi can very easily lead them away from the clones while clones mop up Massassi, once thats done the jedi who have been able to likely stay away from Terentatek is now going to be saved by the clones firing and getting the creatures attention long enough for the Jedi to kill it.

[Selenial]

My god, do you people ever sleep? Edited July 7, 2014 by Selenial

[tunewalker]

My god, do you people ever sleep?

 

I do, but I cant.

[tausra]

My god, do you people ever sleep?

 

I'm at work

[Beniboybling]

Under their noses of course means while counter intelligence and Palpatine worked against them.

Though I feel Maul and the Sun Gaurd are stealthy enough to undermine the RI a little, but not entirely.

 

The RI will still help limit the effectiveness of the Sun Gaurd and Maximize the effectiveness of the PT knights, as information on enemy movements will be all over the place. Even the Sun Guard will find it a bit more difficult then usual as they dont have any Counter-intel operatives working with them at the moment.

 

Just like to make sure every one is clear, that the Sun Guard and Maul while capable may have a bit more of a difficult time as they lack the ability to really get false info or another to catch the peek of interest from the RI, which is still the only full blown Intel agency.

 

To top it off its not like Jedi arent great at "special operations"

I don't see its possible for Republic Intelligence to track a state-of-the art stealthed ship. It cloaks before it takes off, nobody sees it leave. It drops out of hyperspace over the target world, nobody sees it arrive.

 

If we are talking about planning an invasion then maybe, but a surgical stealthed strike?

[Beniboybling]

A request:

 

I'd just like to request from Selenial that we make an edit to one of the Ascedancy's units thanks to a partial error on my part - if Star agrees of course - its concerning the HAVt B5 Juggernaut, looking at its stats I realise I should have suggest to Star that she take the HAVw A5 Juggernaut as the B5 suffers from a lack of information, and a scrappy armament thanks to game mechanics. Both are Imperial models, however I feel A5 is the more ideal choice.

 

I realise its a way into the Kaggath, but this could create problems in the future. And TBH up until now we've been discussing the B5 as if it possessed the armament and capabilities of an A5.

[Beniboybling]

I've always seen Yavin 4's terrain to be very much like Vietnam. As easy as it is to handwave the problem of trees, cover and line of sight, these issues are of huge importance to the CA and to the effectiveness of the RR. It doesn't matter if you have a hundred thousand sensors and 360 degree firing arcs, dense jungle is amazingly good at absorbing everything. So, what follows is an unbiased assessment of terrain on both armies.

 

CA:

Terrain is their saving grace. Dense jungle trees will catch rounds like living cover. Loud jungle creatures, such as the howler and the Runyip are going to set off sensor left and right, and providing aural cover for the much quieter, and native, Massassi. Sure, A UT-AT can bulldoze a few trees, but can it bulldoze a dozen? How many rounds will the Clones waste on charging runyip?

 

With this in mind, we have to include things like day and night in the assessment. At night the Massassi and Sun Guard won't have the cover of moving animals, but they do have the benefit of dense canopies, and practical knowledge of the terrain. They won't be moving based on what some map, acquired by some satellite or spy, says; they'll be moving on instinct and training. When the convoys hunker down at night, which is a likelihood, they become fodder for Massassi guided Sun Guard assaults and ambushes. The counter to this, is of course free use of night vision, but how many hours can a clone sniper stay on scope before they miss something, or they get a little sloppy?

 

Negatively, the basilisks and terentatek will be easily spotted pushing through the jungle, meaning they will be relegated to clean up and emergencies. Why clean up and emergencies? Clones with rocket launchers, tanks with about the same. The darkside nexus will strongly work in Kun's favor, especially if he is in fact capable of mass producing terentatek as has been claimed. However, if he is erstwhile distracted, how effective will his troops be? Also, as has been stated, the CA heavy armor is locked in place around Kun's temple, negating their immediate impact.

 

RR

Alright, the terrain is astoundingly against the RR here. Their armor and troops are going to be tied up with moving through the jungles and hills. They do however have the purely technological advantage over the CA and the terrain. Sensor technology will allow the convoys to be more aware of what lies in front of and around them, night vision will remove some of the scariness of night raids, and the information advantage will likely steer them clear of traps. Armor advantage will likely protect them from most of the jungle worries, such as wet feet (never underestimate the power of trenchfoot) and gnarled flora. It is the sheer specialized technological prowess and versatility that will lead the Clones through the jungle. Because each squad is almost guaranteed to have at least one specialist in a given area, they can adapt and keep moving. Bombs for bigger trees, fire for hostile fauna, jump troops for perspective, and heavies for enemy armor.

 

The RI would also likely provide a list of natural creatures and their pertinent information. This is a blessing and a curse as the Clones will no doubt be aware of such things as the Piranha Beetle, meaning they're going to be more on edge, more likely to make mistakes. The Ri suggested paths will also likely be through some of the worst geography on Yavin 4, because no army leave the easy route untrapped. This complication would likely slow down the convoys further.

 

Final thoughts:

The jungle favors the natives. Technology negates much of the advantage, but also creates new ones. How many times do sensors need to ping before clones shut them off? How many trees can a clone rifle penetrate? How many rounds will each vehicle carry? Again, I can't shake the feeling of an impending Vietnam like scenario occurring, where bombing runs were the only thing that saved the technologically advanced force from the predations of the native ones.

 

Well, well. I was wondering when someone would finally take a crack at my wall.

 

Honestly though, good points, however I have some counter-arguments:

 

1. Dense jungle does indeed make for good cover, but unfortunately this is cover that only the Sun Guard can capitalize on, and only heavy weaponry is going to make a significant dent in those tanks, nor will trees protect you from heavy cannon fire. The Massassi however, have to get in close, into the open, and into open fire.

 

2. Movement sensors may admittedly prove an issue, however each Juggernaut has an observation post that they could sit a clone in, and have each pointing at a different angle, equipped with infrared goggles. The forest and the animals aren't going to mask the heat of dozens and dozens of Massassi creeping towards you.

 

Though I admit they are vulnerable, but hopefully snipers can be spotted before they have time to shoot.

 

And of course, there is always the Force to fall back on, I'm sure Nomi and/or Windu will sense danger in advance.

 

3. Who said anything about convoys hunkering down at night? They don't have time for such luxuries. Each juggernaut is equipped with headlights and I'm sure they'll have several sets of night vision goggles. If they like they can't exactly set up camp outside so they'll have to take a nap inside the tanks and change shifts etc. etc.

 

What you should be asking is: can the Massassi even see in the dark? I'd hazard a guess and say no...

 

So theoretically they should be able to operate just as well at night as they do in the day time.

 

EDIT: Someone will probably prove me wrong here, and say that's just inhumane. But I have another argument.

 

4. Battle Meditation will greatly improve morale I feel. On that topic however Nomi can't sustain it forever, she's going to have to take breaks, and she's also going to have to be wary of BM withdrawal i.e. the crash.

 

All in all I understand your comparison to Vietnam, but remember that the Resistance is, obviously, vastly more technologically advanced than those American soldiers were, but the trees and the natives? Still much the same.

[tausra]

If I can argue a bit on the side of the CA, I think you're vastly underestimating the capabilities of the Massassi and the rest of the "primitive" CA. They may not have the hypertech that the RR are carrying, but there is a reason why Naga Sadow picked them. Their skin is modified by sith alchemy, they wear alchemically treated armor, and they were almost universally force sensitive. Their eyes glowed, which implies some sort of natural low light or dark vision. They lack the very long range of the clones, but make up for it with intimate knowledge of the terrain.

[LadyKulvax]

I would like to point out that as far as the space theater goes, all the RR needs to do is catch one or two enemy ships in other systems and right away the enemy is far less capable of blockading the Yavin system than they already are.

 

This brings us to the possibility of an invasion of Yavin IV, the RR almost wants to kill Kyramuds more than they do Mk-IIs. Kyramuds are the main defence the RR has against fighters if the RR fleet simply picks them off a few at a time using RI intel then the enemy is in big trouble, information is crucial in space warfare and knowing enemy movements will be a great boon.

 

If even just 3 or 4 Kyramuds are destroyed then the RR is definitely back in the game, take into consideration Nomi whom can direct her influence onto the officers of the CA fleet themselves and you have yourself another Endor, confused and disorganised against amped ship crews and a fighter superiority then right away the CA has lost.

 

This needs to be discussed as it directly effects the RR's ground supplies.

[StarSquirrel]

 

Well, well. I was wondering when someone would finally take a crack at my wall.

 

Honestly though, good points, however I have some counter-arguments:

 

1. Dense jungle does indeed make for good cover, but unfortunately this is cover that only the Sun Guard can capitalize on, and only heavy weaponry is going to make a significant dent in those tanks, nor will trees protect you from heavy cannon fire. The Massassi however, have to get in close, into the open, and into open fire.

 

2. Movement sensors may admittedly prove an issue, however each Juggernaut has an observation post that they could sit a clone in, and have each pointing at a different angle, equipped with infrared goggles. The forest and the animals aren't going to mask the heat of dozens and dozens of Massassi creeping towards you.

 

Though I admit they are vulnerable, but hopefully snipers can be spotted before they have time to shoot.

 

And of course, there is always the Force to fall back on, I'm sure Nomi and/or Windu will sense danger in advance.

 

3. Who said anything about convoys hunkering down at night? They don't have time for such luxuries. Each juggernaut is equipped with headlights and I'm sure they'll have several sets of night vision goggles. If they like they can't exactly set up camp outside so they'll have to take a nap inside the tanks and change shifts etc. etc.

 

What you should be asking is: can the Massassi even see in the dark? I'd hazard a guess and say no...

 

So theoretically they should be able to operate just as well at night as they do in the day time.

 

EDIT: Someone will probably prove me wrong here, and say that's just inhumane. But I have another argument.

 

4. Battle Meditation will greatly improve morale I feel. On that topic however Nomi can't sustain it forever, she's going to have to take breaks, and she's also going to have to be wary of BM withdrawal i.e. the crash.

 

All in all I understand your comparison to Vietnam, but remember that the Resistance is, obviously, vastly more technologically advanced than those American soldiers were, but the trees and the natives? Still much the same.

First, Massassi can indeed see in the dark. They have far superior senses to most other species. Even if they can't see them, they can hear/smell/feel them coming. Not to mention force sensitivity, which makes it likely they can sense the clones moving in the force.

 

As for Battle Meditation, if you start running out of rations and supplies I don't care how good your Battle Med is, those troops will still feel dejected.

 

As for the Jungle. Yes it is indeed thick enough for the Massassi to avoid most of the heavy firepower considering the likelihood that they won't be able to see the Massassi until they're on top of them. Even with that, remember they can't afford to waste all their vehicle's firepower on Massassi when Canderous Assault Tanks, Juggernauts, Basilisks, and Terentateks are barging out of the jungle at them. If they do, the opponent's vehicles will get free shots, and then it won't matter how many Massassi make it because by the time they're dead the clone's will have been ripped apart by the CA's firepower.