Conventional vs Exotic

[tunewalker]

There is often the idea that Esoteric abilities and exotic weapons are just better then conventional or that they have no defense against them.

 

My understanding of Esoteric and Conventional is that Esoteric and exotic are that way because they fit very niche jobs and outside those jobs they dont accomplish much, while Conventional are ussually more generalized able to preform all kinds of jobs and in some ways even match esoteric at the jobs esoteric abilities do.

 

 

For me Esoteric abilities and exotic weapons have always been seen as a means of throwing a person off gaurd as they dont expect it or have knowledge of how to effectively nulify it the first time they see it, but after its known just about any one can find a way to defend against it. While conventional abilities take their advantage in having multiple uses thus making them both predictable and unpredictable, able to be defended against and able to caught off gaurd with.

 

 

What are your thoughts on Conventional vs Exotic?

 

How do you think the Conventional came to be?

 

Why is something Exotic?

 

What makes each effective?

 

Is one better then the other?

[StarSquirrel]

You should give some examples.

 

But how about the extended-blade lightsaber as my personal example. It is all about catching someone off-guard at the right moment or when your enemy's weapon has a longer reach etc... It fills a niche role in a duel and if someone is expecting it they can counter it rather easily. It give little benefit, has its own detractors, and is rather exotic.

 

I think conventional weapons are the standards for a reason. If exotic weapons were so effective all the time, someone at some point would have standardized and mass-produced them.

 

Esoteric abilities (were they so good or easy to use) would be as common as telekinesis or force push etc... if they didn't have severe detractors. Some people make the argument that "Oh it was lost knowledge" and while that is accurate in a few special cases, more often than not there is no reason that particular ability couldn't have been passed along if it was that powerful.

 

I tend to agree with Tune on this (presumably)... Conventional Weapons are conventional for a reason. Ease of use, power, versatility, ease of mass production/distribution, and effectiveness are all factors that play into whether a weapon goes into common use and then becomes "conventional". If Exotic weapons or Esoteric abilities were superior in all ways to the conventional weapons of their time, they'd be the conventional weapon of that time.

 

Think about it, most exotic weapons (in the form of prototypes) are used by the losing side, are one-trick ponies that are easily countered, or are impractical.

 

/My2cents

 

[Disclaimer]: What I am not saying is that all exotic weapons or esoteric abilities are weak, as some were lost knowledge/ahead of their time and in many cases their use surprised an enemy allowing victory.

Edited July 1, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

Not on computer, but I just have to say Star...

 

Most reasons things are not mass produced is the MASSIVE cost involved.

 

Rakatan weapons, why not just mass produce 5 instead of one? Because strength in numbers means nothing if you're so spread out you lose your advantage? And that's exactly it, they're circumstantial, fantastic in the right hands for offense, but then it's back to the norm...

[tunewalker]

You should give some examples.

 

But how about the extended-blade lightsaber as my personal example. It is all about catching someone off-guard at the right moment or when your enemy's weapon has a longer reach etc... It fills a niche role in a duel and if someone is expecting it they can counter it rather easily. It give little benefit, has its own detractors, and is rather exotic.

 

I think conventional weapons are the standards for a reason. If exotic weapons were so effective all the time, someone at some point would have standardized and mass-produced them.

 

Esoteric abilities (were they so good or easy to use) would be as common as telekinesis or force push etc... if they didn't have severe detractors. Some people make the argument that "Oh it was lost knowledge" and while that is accurate in a few special cases, more often than not there is no reason that particular ability couldn't have been passed along if it was that powerful.

 

I tend to agree with Tune on this (presumably)... Conventional Weapons are conventional for a reason. Ease of use, power, versatility, ease of mass production/distribution, and effectiveness are all factors that play into whether a weapon goes into common use and then becomes "conventional". If Exotic weapons or Esoteric abilities were superior in all ways to the conventional weapons of their time, they'd be the conventional weapon of that time.

 

Think about it, most exotic weapons (in the form of prototypes) are used by the losing side, are one-trick ponies that are easily countered, or are impractical.

 

/My2cents

 

[Disclaimer]: What I am not saying is that all exotic weapons or esoteric abilities are weak, as some were lost knowledge/ahead of their time and in many cases their use surprised an enemy allowing victory.

 

Bassically this is a good example, now obviously neither of us is saying that extended-blade saber for example is NEVER effective, it has a reason to exist. Many arent prepared for it and those unprepared can often find themselves dead from being caught off gaurd and an inability to adapt to the situation they didnt realize could happen.

 

Its the reason exotic and esoteric abilities ARE effective, but the more versatile standard Saber allows for a broader more accessible defense and more flexible offense. The ability to be more generalized in approach to offense and defense and more options in combat allow for a style that works in more situations and doesnt lean on a gimick that if caught ends in distaster for the opponent.

 

An example of this is the the First time Nihilus or Traya ran into some one who could resist Drains. In both cases they were overpowered by their opponent even in the case of Traya being amped by a Nexus. Sidious was known to know all powers yet drain never became prominent again in the galaxy until the Pre Vong war according to the academy games. And there we see it again counterable by that games version of "Force Absorb" these may be game mechanics, but the fact that drain fell out of use even though quite a few people were shown able to use it suggests it has 1 very big flaw.

 

If a person can create a defense against it, it is nearly worthless.

 

With Exar Kun we see him completely ignore the Blast of a lesser Force user, yet we see lesser Force users still rip greater ones off their feat with Force Pushes and Waves. While his worked against her even though she through up a gaurd from what we know about his ability to incapacitate with Pushes and waves and potentially kill, there is reason to believe with the difference in their power that Kun could have knocked her out just as easily with a Push.

 

Obviously part of the reason the blast didnt become big was the level of knowledge and connection to the force needed in addition to being seeped in the dark side and as far as I can tell dark side is still slightly less common then Lightsiders.

 

Tk abilities when it comes to force powers are more then just combat capable. They allow a Jedi to solve all kinds of problems both violently and Peacfully. Both on and Off the battle field. Same with Telepathy. It can be used for more then just combat, but for information gathering, escaping, tactically cutting off people so on and so forth.

 

General purpose dictates these abilities become common place as the myriad of usages they have are so broad that the greater the mastery of them, the more options you have for ALL situations combat AND otherwise. For combat they can be potentially as effective as a blast, pottentially even more effective if the person knows how to defend against said blast or is prepared for it as the angles of which the TK can attack are more varried.

 

The first time some one sees these blasts they may not know how to handle them and the blast can and likely will catch them off gaurd potentially killing them, but should they avoid the first blast they know what to look for and from what direction its coming from.

 

With TK it will always be varried and the direction its coming from will not always be obvious. Look at how Kyle was injured by Caedus and same with Saba, both were hit by a TK ability from a different angle then each other. Vader's usage against Luke is a perfect example of this as well. The direction and anlge size and scale of the next attack could not be predicted. In the original clone wars with Shak Ti vs Greivous, he had no clue and could not have predicted his own cloak would be used against him.

 

Force cloaks, if the person is detectable severely drains the user and leaves them vulneralbe. Drains if known how to defend against are 100% useless and from what I have seen any era that has had them soon after a defense is found meaning that for a while afterwards they become useless and dont return for a good long while once the defense is lost again. Blasts while potent are not as varried in the usage or direction.

 

I think this may be my point, Esoteric abilities can provide an edge if used at the proper time to catch an opponent off gaurd just like an exotic weapon. This will often lead to said ability granting the person a kill, but once exposed a defense for it isnt neccisarily hard to come up with and time and against people using esoteric abilities or exotic weapons are in the end brought down by a conventional one. Because the person useing the conventional weapon took the esoteric or exotic out of their element and was prepared. The knowledge of the existance of the ability or the weapon allowed them not to be caught off gaurd or their own versatility with the conventionals generalistic or varried usage nature allowed them to be even more unpredictable then the exotic once the exotic was known about since they have such a narrowed usage and situations where they ARE useful.

[StarSquirrel]

Not on computer, but I just have to say Star...

 

Most reasons things are not mass produced is the MASSIVE cost involved.

 

Rakatan weapons, why not just mass produce 5 instead of one? Because strength in numbers means nothing if you're so spread out you lose your advantage? And that's exactly it, they're circumstantial, fantastic in the right hands for offense, but then it's back to the norm...

 

Hehe, caught the hint huh? And I agree with your post Sel

 

But I think the Rakata Tech thing had been talked to death and I likely won't sway from my position on how fantastic any time soon.

 

I respect it, but perhaps to a lesser degree. That is my point with conventional weapons, exotic ones are often better but their lack of versatility/cost means that conventional weapons do better when comparing costs to results.

 

Like Tune said, niche roles. The MSF's role was akin to that of a special forces squad for fleet operations. In open combat it could be vulnerable and with study it might just have proven to have a weakness/flaw that conventional weapons could exploit. (for instance, on a galactic scale holding an Empire with MSF ships would be difficult when your enemy could pick them off with many fleets while still having enough ships to threaten other worlds preventing reinforcements from being sent)

 

Let's use the dovin basals as examples, when the New Republic first faced them they were nigh invincible. With study they showed to have a flaw that the versatile conventional weapons could exploit. Now we see them as an exotic weapon that lost its edge.

[tunewalker]

Not on computer, but I just have to say Star...

 

Most reasons things are not mass produced is the MASSIVE cost involved.

 

Rakatan weapons, why not just mass produce 5 instead of one? Because strength in numbers means nothing if you're so spread out you lose your advantage? And that's exactly it, they're circumstantial, fantastic in the right hands for offense, but then it's back to the norm...

 

Yes but these Rakatan weapons always eventually lose. The Forge was for Mass production and I see few cases that provide numbers for both sides in any battle to say one was absolutely superior to the other.

 

Rakattan tech is also still accepted as better even by me, but not to a 2:1 degree. As far as I have been able to tell its always been about 30% stronger, the same difference in strength between an Imp I and an Imp II.

 

Now some look at that and go thats not much, well lets look at dps in game for a sec. If one class was doing 4k and another was 30% weaker they would be doing 2.8K there is no way any one is even thinking about taking that 2.8k guy because the difference between the 2 is laughable. That 30% blows them out of the water hard, and thats why cheaper things DO get produced. The Rakatta tech likely costs double, but isnt worth double as far as overall strength, so its about cost effectiveness.

 

This is true between Imp I and the Venator to a degree as well. They are likely on an overall even keel but the Imp I was massively cheaper.

 

But things like saber staffs, dual weilding sabers, saber pikes and saber whips are just as expensive as the standard saber, they just have different advantages and disadvantages. The most versitle because it can either be used 1 handed or 2 handed or dual weilded is the standard saber. It allows for a potential free hand to use Force powers with that are extremely versatile and unpredictable in their own right and it also allows for a 2 handed grip for power blows. Other sabers provide their own advantage, not the least of which is often the primary reason for them and that is their rare nature causes them to be less known on how to counter.

[LadyKulvax]

Both have strengths and weaknesses.

 

The difference is far more people will expect the conventional than they will the esoteric.

 

But this mostly depends on the user, how many esoteric and unexpected tricks do they have? if only a a few they may find themselves in deep trouble, but if they have truly mastered the sphere of these rare talents then they could be a serious threat to almost anyone.

[tunewalker]

Both have strengths and weaknesses.

 

The difference is far more people will expect the conventional than they will the esoteric.

 

But this mostly depends on the user, how many esoteric and unexpected tricks do they have? if only a a few they may find themselves in deep trouble, but if they have truly mastered the sphere of these rare talents then they could be a serious threat to almost anyone.

 

Would you also say that it may depend on how a person uses the conventional abilities? If the conventional abilities are just as varried and unpredictable as the esoteric's users own essoteric abilities would they not be on an even footing for unpredictability?

 

other than that I think this is very much a stance I am taking on this and thats a very good point the more numerable the esoteric abilities a person has the more they variety and options they have to be unpredictable so its fine that they are "specialized" because they have "specialized" in multiple fields ultimately allowing for many options all through widely unknown abilities achieving a generalization that some one usually gets through a couple conventional abilities by using more exotic methods that ultimately are more effective BECAUSE of their more unpredictable nature and potentially also because of their more "specialized" nature. Essentially having 1 Great ability for every situation rather then 1 Good ability that can be used in all situations (IE multiple great specialized abilities for what every situation they find themselves in rather then 1 good general purpose ability.)

Edited July 1, 2014 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Would you also say that it may depend on how a person uses the conventional abilities? If the conventional abilities are just as varried and unpredictable as the esoteric's users own essoteric abilities would they not be on an even footing for unpredictability?

 

other than that I think this is very much a stance I am taking on this and thats a very good point the more numerable the esoteric abilities a person has the more they variety and options they have to be unpredictable so its fine that they are "specialized" because they have "specialized" in multiple fields ultimately allowing for many options all through widely unknown abilities achieving a generalization that some one usually gets through a couple conventional abilities by using more exotic methods that ultimately are more effective BECAUSE of their more unpredictable nature and potentially also because of their more "specialized" nature. Essentially having 1 Great ability for every situation rather then 1 Good ability that can be used in all situations (IE multiple great specialized abilities for what every situation they find themselves in rather then 1 good general purpose ability.)

 

I agree, if they have a truly wide array of abilities that meets many situations then they would be exceptionally dangerouz and will have mastered the use of abilities outside the norm, this is of course difficult and few ever manage that level of unpredictability, but if they do then they will find that many if not all opponents are bewildered by them and thus ineffective.

[StarSquirrel]

thats a very good point the more numerable the esoteric abilities a person has the more they variety and options they have to be unpredictable

 

Darth Caedus...

[LadyKulvax]

Darth Caedus...

 

Yep, poster boy right there.

[Silenceo]

One ability that I would like everyone's thoughts on, is Force Destruction.

 

It appears to be quite an exotic ability that specializes in what many people attempt to do with standard powers, but instead of being all fancy about it, it tends to just...well...destroy whatever it hits, or if is durable enough to survive, throw them away from the user.

 

One of the huge downsides though is the sheer amount of energy such a power requires, yet if it managed to land on the intended target, it likely could outright kill most. Granted, powerful lightside practitioners such as Yoda likely could absorb or redirect its power, which is probably why it was not too common.

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this power?

[Aurbere]

One ability that I would like everyone's thoughts on, is Force Destruction.

 

It appears to be quite an exotic ability that specializes in what many people attempt to do with standard powers, but instead of being all fancy about it, it tends to just...well...destroy whatever it hits, or if is durable enough to survive, throw them away from the user.

 

One of the huge downsides though is the sheer amount of energy such a power requires, yet if it managed to land on the intended target, it likely could outright kill most. Granted, powerful lightside practitioners such as Yoda likely could absorb or redirect its power, which is probably why it was not too common.

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this power?

 

It's called Force Destruction. What else is there to say?

 

I'll say more tomorrow, too tired now.

[tunewalker]

One ability that I would like everyone's thoughts on, is Force Destruction.

 

It appears to be quite an exotic ability that specializes in what many people attempt to do with standard powers, but instead of being all fancy about it, it tends to just...well...destroy whatever it hits, or if is durable enough to survive, throw them away from the user.

 

One of the huge downsides though is the sheer amount of energy such a power requires, yet if it managed to land on the intended target, it likely could outright kill most. Granted, powerful lightside practitioners such as Yoda likely could absorb or redirect its power, which is probably why it was not too common.

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this power?

 

Actually as far as I can tell it is an application of very advanced wave based TK. It to me seems to be taking the TK wave conventional ability to its highest degree. As far as I can tell from the little I have read on it, it doesnt seem all that uncommon either. As its suggested that Vader, Galen, Jerec (who used it to no avail against Katarn), Katarn, Palps, and the Sith emperor all have this ability and I am sure many more have it as well.

 

From its description it doesnt seem all that esoteric but more an advancement of the conventional TK abilities. IE just one of many ways to use TK. Its not always the best thing to hit some one with all your might as if you miss you do use up a lot of energy that way.

Edited July 1, 2014 by tunewalker

[Spetulhu]

What are your thoughts on Conventional vs Exotic?

 

Exotic doesn't necessarily mean better, but it could be if you've trained with it. Assuming it's otherwise a sensible weapon ofc.

 

An exotic weapon is sometimes made in response to something else - like some very long curved African swords that look absolutely useless until you see the huge shields the same guys used to defend themself with. Rather than trying to break the shield some smart guy decided to make a weapon that can curve around and hit the defender.

 

Or when you can't be carrying around what looks like a (conventional) weapon - much of the weirder Japanese stuff is either a repurposed tool or a disguised weapon (or both). Something like an axe with a chain should be pretty easy to make and no one's going to ask why a woodcutter has an axe until he goes on a rampage with it. And there's those silly old eating utensils with a very small flintlock barrel built in for when you were absolutely terrified of assassins.