Kinetic Shadow PVP

[Jiminison]

This is For PURE SHADOW / ASSASSIN PVP

 

BW Time to address us we either need better defense and more stream lined DEF Mechanic like Kinetic ward for instance this ability is annoying it needs to last longer or not exist . Give us a on demand heal since we are consulars or our old healing mechanism that works with DR or through another stance that can bypass DR but gives decent heals to counter the dr loss so we can have the choice or even a bubble which heals us like BH's have, it's awesome looking at heals in the 100K range from guardians (in WZ) while I am lucky to put out 20k in heals. It is no secret we need more damage output I am talking pure tanks not the op hybrids that were supposed to be brought into line.

 

THIS IS FOR PURE SHADOW TANKS

 

* Either improve kinetic ward (better up time ) or just scrap it

 

* Better heals put us in line with other tanks

 

* Better damage or atleast inline with the other tanks

 

All of these can be wrapped up high in the tree out of Hybrids way

 

Even if you do not agree with me Shadow PURE TANKS need better performance in PVP

 

I can remember waiting for our AC video before launch I had already made up my mind and BW gives it too us finally a month or two before launch while the other classes were well represented with video a year or more. My point is I feet the shadow tank seems to be last inline for everything and nobody has seen a more nerfs compared too buff than the shadow/*** tank.

 

Every patch I feel like I am falling behind because of all the buffs The dps and healing classes have received even trooper got a lot of attention in the last year while we just received nerfs and a slight damage boost that made no difference (was it even a full 1%).... Please stop sweeping us under the mat and my fellow shadows who want to shoot everything down I say you have helped keep us mediocre for way too long please go ruin another class or go Infl/balance and ruin those specs.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Jiminison

[JP_Legatus]

This is For PURE SHADOW / ASSASSIN PVP

 

BW Time to address us we either need better defense and more stream lined DEF Mechanic like Kinetic ward for instance this ability is annoying it needs to last longer or not exist . Give us a on demand heal since we are consulars or our old healing mechanism that works with DR or through another stance that can bypass DR but gives decent heals to counter the dr loss so we can have the choice or even a bubble which heals us like BH's have, it's awesome looking at heals in the 100K range from guardians (in WZ) while I am lucky to put out 20k in heals. It is no secret we need more damage output I am talking pure tanks not the op hybrids that were supposed to be brought into line.

 

THIS IS FOR PURE SHADOW TANKS

 

* Either improve kinetic ward (better up time ) or just scrap it

 

* Better heals put us in line with other tanks

 

* Better damage or atleast inline with the other tanks

 

All of these can be wrapped up high in the tree out of Hybrids way

 

Even if you do not agree with me Shadow PURE TANKS need better performance in PVP

 

I can remember waiting for our AC video before launch I had already made up my mind and BW gives it too us finally a month or two before launch while the other classes were well represented with video a year or more. My point is I feet the shadow tank seems to be last inline for everything and nobody has seen a more nerfs compared too buff than the shadow/*** tank.

 

Every patch I feel like I am falling behind because of all the buffs The dps and healing classes have received even trooper got a lot of attention in the last year while we just received nerfs and a slight damage boost that made no difference (was it even a full 1%).... Please stop sweeping us under the mat and my fellow shadows who want to shoot everything down I say you have helped keep us mediocre for way too long please go ruin another class or go Infl/balance and ruin those specs.

 

TBH I would agree based only on the current TTK that sins could use a buff, IF PT FULL TANKS ALSO GET BUFFED.

Either that, or nerf jugg tanks. It looks to me clearly like its jugg tank -> sin/PT currently, and I don't really care which one gets changed as long as they are brought in line.

 

The intercede + aoe taunt bubble + extra hard stun/aoe mezz + ED h2f is way, way over the top of anything either sin or PT can do right now.

[Vodrin]

TBH I would agree based only on the current TTK that sins could use a buff, IF PT FULL TANKS ALSO GET BUFFED.

Either that, or nerf jugg tanks. It looks to me clearly like its jugg tank -> sin/PT currently, and I don't really care which one gets changed as long as they are brought in line.

 

The intercede + aoe taunt bubble + extra hard stun/aoe mezz + ED h2f is way, way over the top of anything either sin or PT can do right now.

 

Sins do have a bit better damage output than jugs, but the survivability is a bit off (thanks to ED and Endure pain not taking back all the health it gives). I really think this is more of a case of juggs needing a slight nerf to their self healing rather than sins needing a buff. Although I would really like to see is the duration of dark protection increased to 20 seconds or so. Right now you cannot maintain that buff while still putting out max DPS. I'd like to see a little more flexibility to the attack rotation.

[JP_Legatus]

Sins do have a bit better damage output than jugs, but the survivability is a bit off (thanks to ED and Endure pain not taking back all the health it gives). I really think this is more of a case of juggs needing a slight nerf to their self healing rather than sins needing a buff. Although I would really like to see is the duration of dark protection increased to 20 seconds or so. Right now you cannot maintain that buff while still putting out max DPS. I'd like to see a little more flexibility to the attack rotation.

 

I really couldn't care less how much damage a tank is putting out, at the end of the day it's going to be peanuts compared to a real dps no matter what you do and the real job of a tank is to keep his guys alive.

 

You're right 100% on the jugg healing imo and maybe on dark protection, though again I don't really feel like it matters if I miss a few dps globals to optimize my tankiness.

[Vodrin]

I really couldn't care less how much damage a tank is putting out, at the end of the day it's going to be peanuts compared to a real dps no matter what you do and the real job of a tank is to keep his guys alive.

 

You're right 100% on the jugg healing imo and maybe on dark protection, though again I don't really feel like it matters if I miss a few dps globals to optimize my tankiness.

 

I disagree. A tank that cannot put out decent DPS is a bit of a liability in PvP with tank stats being so ineffective. The survivability boost that tanks have is almost entirely from damage reduction talents and DCD's. As stats make so minor a difference in how much damage you can absorb you may as well try to do good damage. Best way to keep allies alive in PvP is to help kill the opponents doing damage.

 

Sin survivability is good enough in tank spec to make it take alot to put them down with a respectable healer helping. Still need to do some damage though as a good tank can keep allies up and still put out about 60-70% as much damage as a DPS class.

[JP_Legatus]

I disagree. A tank that cannot put out decent DPS is a bit of a liability in PvP with tank stats being so ineffective. The survivability boost that tanks have is almost entirely from damage reduction talents and DCD's. As stats make so minor a difference in how much damage you can absorb you may as well try to do good damage. Best way to keep allies alive in PvP is to help kill the opponents doing damage.

 

Sin survivability is good enough in tank spec to make it take alot to put them down with a respectable healer helping. Still need to do some damage though as a good tank can keep allies up and still put out about 60-70% as much damage as a DPS class.

 

Have you tried full main tanking in dps gear? Have you tried to tank dps and survive all at once? Have you tried to dps as a main tank? I don't think you've thought this through.

 

But the main thing here is that if you were correct, tanks would never wear tank gear in pvp. They do, so your case is finished imo.

 

I'm not saying a little extra damage isn't good, I'm saying on the grand scale of things and what you bring a tank for the dps not relevant enough to consider it a main factor in how you decide to tank and which class or setup you use.

 

I don't see us reaching an agreement on this issue, but you're more than welcome to dps as a tank with your team if you feel that will help somehow.

Edited July 1, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Aetideus]

I disagree. A tank that cannot put out decent DPS is a bit of a liability in PvP with tank stats being so ineffective. The survivability boost that tanks have is almost entirely from damage reduction talents and DCD's. As stats make so minor a difference in how much damage you can absorb you may as well try to do good damage. Best way to keep allies alive in PvP is to help kill the opponents doing damage.

 

Sin survivability is good enough in tank spec to make it take alot to put them down with a respectable healer helping. Still need to do some damage though as a good tank can keep allies up and still put out about 60-70% as much damage as a DPS class.

 

Tanking and dcds is the optimum and not dps. In an Arena with tank stance and dps gear the first round is awesome. The second round the opponents understand that the hp is < 33k and the tank is dead in secs.

No tank could survive with dps>dcds|mitigation. And Guard/Jug is the only one with decent dcds.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Aetideus

[Vodrin]

But the main thing here is that if you were correct, tanks would never wear tank gear in pvp. They do, so your case is finished imo.

.

 

Back when ranked first dropped all the best groups had their tanks geared with DPS gear. Survival difference is quite small and damage output difference is quite large. And no one "main tanks" in PvP. That is a PvE concept only. My sent kills a fully tank geared character about 1 GCD slower than a DPS without DCD's and damage reduction talents. Try the experiment once and then tell me I am wrong. Remember, a dead opponent does no DPS.

[JP_Legatus]

Back when ranked first dropped all the best groups had their tanks geared with DPS gear. Survival difference is quite small and damage output difference is quite large. And no one "main tanks" in PvP. That is a PvE concept only. My sent kills a fully tank geared character about 1 GCD slower than a DPS without DCD's and damage reduction talents. Try the experiment once and then tell me I am wrong. Remember, a dead opponent does no DPS.

 

Back when ranked first dropped you mean 8v8 ranked? I've never in my entire life seen an intentional dps geared main tank in 8v8 rated, ever, in what must have been thousands of games against all kinds of good and bad guilds and teams or even random 8man pugs on a variety of servers.

In 4v4 arenas, they go exactly as it has been described to you: either your "tank" is wearing tank gear, or the other team eventually realizes he's not actually a tank and he dies.

Saying nobody brings a "main tank" into 4v4 ranked? I don't know what planet you're even living on, sure not every team chooses to run with one but a lot do.

Your assessment of damage output vs tankiness depending on gear and spec is also off by quite a bit. You do not get a "quite large damage increase for small loss of survivability" by putting dps gear on a tank spec.

As for your sent, he most likely gets a large amount of armor penetration while attacking a character who isn't set up properly to only see 1 difference in gcd. Most likely carnage with 100% armor pen. At the VERY LEAST, putting on my tank gear gives me enough flat out HEALTH to survive an extra global, BEFORE defense stats. In most cases, your dps is cut roughly in half, again depending on what class and spec you are.

 

I can only assume at this point that you have very little experience trying the variety of tank specs and gear combinations on multiple classes, compared to others such as myself who have tried just about everything at least a few times.

Edited July 2, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Vodrin]

Back when ranked first dropped you mean 8v8 ranked? I've never in my entire life seen an intentional dps geared main tank in 8v8 rated, ever, in what must have been thousands of games against all kinds of good and bad guilds and teams or even random 8man pugs on a variety of servers.

In 4v4 arenas, they go exactly as it has been described to you: either your "tank" is wearing tank gear, or the other team eventually realizes he's not actually a tank and he dies.

Saying nobody brings a "main tank" into 4v4 ranked? I don't know what planet you're even living on, sure not every team chooses to run with one but a lot do.

Your assessment of damage output vs tankiness depending on gear and spec is also off by quite a bit. You do not get a "quite large damage increase for small loss of survivability" by putting dps gear on a tank spec.

As for your sent, he most likely gets a large amount of armor penetration while attacking a character who isn't set up properly to only see 1 difference in gcd. Most likely carnage with 100% armor pen. At the VERY LEAST, putting on my tank gear gives me enough flat out HEALTH to survive an extra global, BEFORE defense stats. In most cases, your dps is cut roughly in half, again depending on what class and spec you are.

 

I can only assume at this point that you have very little experience trying the variety of tank specs and gear combinations on multiple classes, compared to others such as myself who have tried just about everything at least a few times.

 

Yes I was referring to 8v8 way back in 1.3, and yes my sent is rocking 100% armor pen for his burst cycle. Problem with gearing as a tank is that so many attacks ignore armor and shield, and cannot be defended.

 

Check out this post from Keyboard Ninja requesting a buff for defensive stats in PvP.

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post

Survivability

Dread Palace

 

Shadow: 73.3933%

Guardian: 74.1169%

Guardian (hybrid): 74.9887%

Vanguard: 73.1754%

 

 

PvP

 

Shadow: 57.4008%

Guardian: 58.0441%

Guardian (hybrid): 58.0374%

Vanguard: 58.1033%

 

 

These values are the net survivability percentages, including all buffs, self-heals, damage ratios, active procs (like Energy Blast and Kinetic Bulwark), damage debuffs (like Slow Time), and more. Player armor penetration (e.g. talented or debuffed) is not considered, which slightly inflates the calculated survivability of vanguards. The only thing not included here are defensive cooldowns (like Resilience or Saber Ward). Higher numbers are better and represent a larger fraction of damage mitigated. Fully optimized Dread Forged and Obroan gear sets are respectively assumed.

 

Notice the disparity here. The problem is that pure tanks are not very "tanky" in PvP! There just isn't a lot of survivability to differentiate them from DPS. Sure, there is more survivability here than a DPS, but not that much more! And if a tank isn't really much more survivable than a DPS but still suffers from dramatically lower damage, then there is no benefit to bringing the tank rather than the DPS.

 

For comparison, here is the survivability for an average Combat Sentinel wearing exclusively offensive gear (i.e. zero defense rating):

 

Without rebuke (0% uptime): 37.9177%

Rolling rebuke (50% uptime): 44.6375%

 

 

So, hilariously, your average Combat Sentinel in full DPS spec and gear has nearly as much survivability as a pure tank in optimized defensive gear! Considering that sentinels get defensive cooldowns which are almost as good (or better) than those granted to tanks, there doesn't seem to be much of a defensive advantage to bringing a tank over a sentinel, while the offensive advantage to the sentinel is manifest.

 

 

So a full tank jug has only a marginal PvP survival bonus over a sent running rebuke. And yet the jug is saddled with a much lower damage output. At launch and for the first 3 major patch cycles no one that I knew of on any of the 3 servers I played on ran tank gear for PvP on any setup (other than a shield that is), and they would complain about the shield generators having "useless" defensive stats. Now obviously the perception is much different. And yet the game mechanics have changed very little.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Vodrin

[JP_Legatus]

 

You've made a good number of bad arguments here.

 

1. You used tanks for the tank stats and then a marauder for the dps stats.

2. You didn't include a before/after for tank defensive stats after switching to tank/dps gear.

3. You didn't include a before/after for dps of a tank after switching to dps/tank gear.

 

These are the relevant issues.

 

Furthermore, I'm not sure how you arrived at 37% defense for a sentinel with no defensive gear or stats and 58% for a jugg tank, but even if it were true it's a 20% defensive buff before dcd's. You don't get to randomly pick and choose from dcd's, if I were to include ED in that calculation... wow.

 

As for KBN's stuff I'd like to see how he calculated that, but it looks pretty close to what I've experienced. Your sent number is what looks way off, and that's still 20% difference just from gear.

 

Onto the main issue though: do you think a tank specced character gets more than 20% extra damage by taking his tank gear off and putting dps gear on? It's probably not far off from 20%.

 

Tanks are supposed to be roughly 50%-75% more survivable than a regular character, they still get hurt by stuff. Roughly half that comes from tree and half from gear. It might be more from tree and less from gear (prove it), but it's not the way you're describing it at all.

Edited July 3, 2014 by JP_Legatus