Which tank is the best for guarding healers in warzones?

[JP_Legatus]

Carbonize has always been a hardstun.

 

Oh cool. Never got a PT to 55, couldn't stand the leveling anymore even on double xp. Technically I'm still right since PT doesn't have two FOUR second hard stuns, they have aoe 3s and 4s single target

 

Anyways op, jugg still has the aoe mezz + 2 4s hard stuns, a really big single target knock back and best protection skill set by far. The biggest difference being intercede. Go jugg.

Edited June 29, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Maudril]

Anything but a Tank Assassin/Shadow apparently. PT has some nice AOE damage that is excellent for places like Voidstar, also the Oil Slick. Assassin's Shelter is actually good for controlling the fight if you feel up to your tanking skills and if your healers are feeling like taking a beating. For Voidstar, put an Assassin's Shelter and/or Oilslick on the door, and watch your protection and (if op healer) their heals go through the roof as well. You put that Shelter somewhere, that is where the fighting is going to be as they frantically try to drop your healers. If not confident in your team that can... backfire.

 

Anyhows, Sins are a bit below the pack (less so than when they had the selfheals, when they had the selfheals almost every burstspec in the game had their way with the tanksin until they were unable to sit for weeks). They need improvement, but I think the devs are working to make tanks as a whole better for PVP. Tanksins need more help, and Jug is arguably the best.... but PT's are *definitely* more useful than juggers when all the fighting is in one place.

[JP_Legatus]

Anything but a Tank Assassin/Shadow apparently. PT has some nice AOE damage that is excellent for places like Voidstar, also the Oil Slick. Assassin's Shelter is actually good for controlling the fight if you feel up to your tanking skills and if your healers are feeling like taking a beating. For Voidstar, put an Assassin's Shelter and/or Oilslick on the door, and watch your protection and (if op healer) their heals go through the roof as well. You put that Shelter somewhere, that is where the fighting is going to be as they frantically try to drop your healers. If not confident in your team that can... backfire.

 

Anyhows, Sins are a bit below the pack (less so than when they had the selfheals, when they had the selfheals almost every burstspec in the game had their way with the tanksin until they were unable to sit for weeks). They need improvement, but I think the devs are working to make tanks as a whole better for PVP. Tanksins need more help, and Jug is arguably the best.... but PT's are *definitely* more useful than juggers when all the fighting is in one place.

 

With the new ED on juggs I don't think it's even close right now, intercede + ED = win. Jugg tanks can literally heal2full at any time of their choosing, in combat out of combat whatever. Healer can pretty much ignore the jugg and focus on healing everyone else, and that's on the tank with the most teammate protection skills and CC by far. It's a pretty one-sided contest.

 

Before the ED buff I'd have said PT were close to jugg but still chosen jugg simply because of intercede, the only tank with effectively 3 taunts, that's a big deal. Now it's just a no brainer.

Edited June 30, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[AxeDragoneth]

An analogy I use:

 

Juggtanks are the big brother that other tanks want to be better than but can't.

Powertanks are the middle child who don't have the protection of Juggs or damage of Sins, but I'd say more general utility, plus range.

Sintanks are the youngest who gave up trying to be like the other two and try to kill things while being a quasi-tank.

[Maudril]

With the new ED on juggs I don't think it's even close right now, intercede + ED = win. Jugg tanks can literally heal2full at any time of their choosing, in combat out of combat whatever. Healer can pretty much ignore the jugg and focus on healing everyone else, and that's on the tank with the most teammate protection skills and CC by far. It's a pretty one-sided contest.

 

Before the ED buff I'd have said PT were close to jugg but still chosen jugg simply because of intercede, the only tank with effectively 3 taunts, that's a big deal. Now it's just a no brainer.

 

Incorrect. Jug tanks do not stack power. ED works off power, Crit, and Surge (Yes, ED stacks do crit) so it is nowhere near a H2F for Jugtanks. Rage and Vengeance are a different matter, they can H2F. Devs made sure ED is more useful for DPS than tank spec.

If JugTanks were to stack power, they would be reducing their mitigation stacks, so whether or not H2Fing would make them more survivable is debatable.

For tanks, PT Kolto Overload >>>> Jug ED

 

However, suppose you do forgo mitigation stats to boost ED and your damage. Juggernauts have a H2F, but the combination of better mitigation and Kolto Overlead having no hard limit on how much it heals in its 8 second duration means that the PT could potentially live through a LOT more damage than the Juggernaut would. Depending on the severity of focus, the Jug's H2F would be more effective in a lower damage environment than the PT's Kolto Overload. In a damage environment that would burst through the PT Tanks Kolto Overload, the Jug's ED would be bursted right through as well, so that is another way KO > ED for tanks.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Maudril

[Vodrin]

However, suppose you do forgo mitigation stats to boost ED and your damage. Juggernauts have a H2F, but the combination of better mitigation and Kolto Overlead having no hard limit on how much it heals in its 8 second duration means that the PT could potentially live through a LOT more damage than the Juggernaut would.

 

I'm not so sure about that, and I would not stack mitigation stats on any tank right now. Every classes heavy hitters and main damage abilities pretty much ignore defense and shield. By stacking those stats you pick up less than 10% additional incoming damage reduction while losing almost 50% of your outgoing damage. Wish I could find the thread with the exact numbers calculated. That and my personal experiments make me think that tanks are better off stacking damage stats under most circumstances.

[Zoom_VI]

I'm not so sure about that, and I would not stack mitigation stats on any tank right now. Every classes heavy hitters and main damage abilities pretty much ignore defense and shield. By stacking those stats you pick up less than 10% additional incoming damage reduction while losing almost 50% of your outgoing damage. Wish I could find the thread with the exact numbers calculated. That and my personal experiments make me think that tanks are better off stacking damage stats under most circumstances.

 

The only heavy hitters that ignore shield are autocrits, and there are not many autocrits in the current meta, thus stacking shield and absorb is still the best way to go.

[L-RANDLE]

Incorrect. Jug tanks do not stack power. ED works off power, Crit, and Surge (Yes, ED stacks do crit) so it is nowhere near a H2F for Jugtanks. Rage and Vengeance are a different matter, they can H2F. Devs made sure ED is more useful for DPS than tank spec.

If JugTanks were to stack power, they would be reducing their mitigation stacks, so whether or not H2Fing would make them more survivable is debatable.

For tanks, PT Kolto Overload >>>> Jug ED

 

However, suppose you do forgo mitigation stats to boost ED and your damage. Juggernauts have a H2F, but the combination of better mitigation and Kolto Overlead having no hard limit on how much it heals in its 8 second duration means that the PT could potentially live through a LOT more damage than the Juggernaut would. Depending on the severity of focus, the Jug's H2F would be more effective in a lower damage environment than the PT's Kolto Overload. In a damage environment that would burst through the PT Tanks Kolto Overload, the Jug's ED would be bursted right through as well, so that is another way KO > ED for tanks.

You have to keep in mind that jug tanks have higher passive and active mitigation, so the effective HP gain is higher than the tooltip would indicate. My "SWTOR tin-foil dyno" says ED on par with Shien/Rage.

 

The "stacking power" stuff is up for debate, but I still think Jugg/Guards are still better equipped for guarding healers.

[JP_Legatus]

Incorrect. Jug tanks do not stack power. ED works off power, Crit, and Surge (Yes, ED stacks do crit) so it is nowhere near a H2F for Jugtanks. Rage and Vengeance are a different matter, they can H2F. Devs made sure ED is more useful for DPS than tank spec.

If JugTanks were to stack power, they would be reducing their mitigation stacks, so whether or not H2Fing would make them more survivable is debatable.

For tanks, PT Kolto Overload >>>> Jug ED

 

However, suppose you do forgo mitigation stats to boost ED and your damage. Juggernauts have a H2F, but the combination of better mitigation and Kolto Overlead having no hard limit on how much it heals in its 8 second duration means that the PT could potentially live through a LOT more damage than the Juggernaut would. Depending on the severity of focus, the Jug's H2F would be more effective in a lower damage environment than the PT's Kolto Overload. In a damage environment that would burst through the PT Tanks Kolto Overload, the Jug's ED would be bursted right through as well, so that is another way KO > ED for tanks.

 

You're focusing on a lot of trivial and irrelevant information. Both ED and kolto overload are essentially godmodes during the duration. Whether or not power or crit stacks ED is completely irrelevant, it heals you to full when you activate it either way. Kolto provides a higher maximum heal but it's irrelevant since most of the time the dps is doing normal dps damage, which ED is more than adequate against. If you were facing 8 raid bosses then maybe the difference would matter, in arena where there are usually 2 or 3 player dps and most of your damage is coming from guard (or you aren't a tank) it does not matter or is very marginal in difference.

What randle said is also correct, EHP is a factor.

 

On top of that the biggest reason jugg tank is better is not because of ED, it's because of intercede and the bubble on aoe taunt. The job of a tank is to protect his team, he should be able to survive just fine on his own mitigation because he is a tank. The cooldowns for a tank are just methods whereby you can assist the healer. Intercede and the bubble on aoe taunt keep your team alive better than any tools the sin or pt have. ED is just a thing that shouldn't have been buffed but was and made the jugg tank even more OP.

 

You can be factually more correct (which you are, credit where it's due) and still be making an irrelevant argument, which is what you did.

Edited July 1, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Maudril]

You're focusing on a lot of trivial and irrelevant information. Both ED and kolto overload are essentially godmodes during the duration. Whether or not power or crit stacks ED is completely irrelevant, it heals you to full when you activate it either way.

 

It doesn't heal you anyhwere near to full without DPS stats. That is fully relevant. The ED heals are not reliant upon HP percentages, ED calculates its heals the same way an ability calculates its damage. The more crit/surge/power you have, the more ED is going to heal you. I am pretty sure it takes *everything* into account that will help your damage, such as your stance and if you have a focus or shield generator equipped.

 

I do not know how much DPS gear is needed to maximize Enraged Defense, but I know its a lot more than what PT tanks need to keep Kolto Overload effective. When/If the devs make tank stats fully relevant again in PVP, Kolto Overload will become an obejectively better DCD than ED for the tanks.

 

Enraged Defense is weak in Tank gear, and strong in DPS gear. That was intentional.

 

And let me stress this again. The fact that ED relies on DPS stats and such is fully relevant, because without DPS stats, stance, and focus it is *not* a heal to full. Depending on how much it relies on them, it could be fairly useless in tank gear. I have not played my Guardian tank in PVP for some time, so I cannot say for sure, bit I do know that no Jugtank I have ever come across heals to full without an actual healer at his bacck.

[Vodrin]

It doesn't heal you anyhwere near to full without DPS stats. That is fully relevant. The ED heals are not reliant upon HP percentages, ED calculates its heals the same way an ability calculates its damage. The more crit/surge/power you have, the more ED is going to heal you. I am pretty sure it takes *everything* into account that will help your damage, such as your stance and if you have a focus or shield generator equipped.

 

I do not know how much DPS gear is needed to maximize Enraged Defense, but I know its a lot more than what PT tanks need to keep Kolto Overload effective. When/If the devs make tank stats fully relevant again in PVP, Kolto Overload will become an obejectively better DCD than ED for the tanks.

 

Enraged Defense is weak in Tank gear, and strong in DPS gear. That was intentional.

 

And let me stress this again. The fact that ED relies on DPS stats and such is fully relevant, because without DPS stats, stance, and focus it is *not* a heal to full. Depending on how much it relies on them, it could be fairly useless in tank gear. I have not played my Guardian tank in PVP for some time, so I cannot say for sure, bit I do know that no Jugtank I have ever come across heals to full without an actual healer at his bacck.

 

Well, to be fair a jug tank will always have a healer with them, or will be next to useless if running tank gear. A fully tank geared jug hits like a wet noodle and will be next to useless without a healer to take advantage of it's increased ability to survive.

[Maudril]

Well, to be fair a jug tank will always have a healer with them, or will be next to useless if running tank gear. A fully tank geared jug hits like a wet noodle and will be next to useless without a healer to take advantage of it's increased ability to survive.

 

Which is a problem that the devs need to fix. There are two problems that they need to fix with the tanks. One is that there are too many abilities that ignore tank defensives, there need to be only a few specs that can easily drop a tank. Make fewer abilities bypass defense rating, make only autocrits and certain DoTs work around shield and/or armor. This would be tricky, as I think the Madness Sin should be a lot more proficient at dropping the tank than the sorc.

 

There also needs to be more tanks can do to protect their allies outside of their taunts and stuns. There is guard, sure, but I do not think that is enough. Their damaging moves need to do something IMO other than the usual debuffs. Make the debuffs PVE-specific mechanics, and make the PVP mechanics more like mini-taunts. TTK too short in this game? Give good tanks more tools to do something about that! Intercede is a start, the bubble on the AOE taunt is potent, so the jugtank should obviously have the fewest of these minitaunts, and the Assassin should have the most... or at least the most that can be applied AOE.

 

But that is offtopic.

 

Juggernauts by the sound of it are the best tanks, and the reason that ED is *any* part of that equation is because tank stats are not anywhere near as important as they should be, and tanks are more useful for dealing some damage than they are devoting themselves entirely to protecting teammates.

ED is only a factor because tanks are underpowered in PVP, TTK is too low.

 

EDIT: On an offnote, in ranked Arenas (not soloqueue), sure they will have a healer with them at all times. Unless you are rolling a premade, you are def not guaranteed a pocket healer in warzones. Without a pocket healer, ED's H2F is more useful than KO, so in terms of tanks running DPS gear in Warzones, Jugtanks *DO* have that advantage. But for guarding a healer in tank gear, KO is the better DCD

Edited July 8, 2014 by Maudril

[Vodrin]

In my opinion, juggs were the best tanks before the ED buff. They have the best selection of CC and their absorb shields and damage reduction talents are slightly better than the other tanks, and that is without factoring in ED (even if it is less effective for a pure tank).

[JP_Legatus]

It doesn't heal you anyhwere near to full without DPS stats.

 

Again, the stats in tank gear only cost you about 30% of your "dps stats" if you had dps gear. Try it out for comparison.

 

We've already mathed ED out to a possible "24k" which is more than double a wz medpac. I'm not sure why this is an issue for you.

 

If you're going to be an overtechnical idiot, technically I can heal to full with one tick of a marauders heal, as long as my health was only missing 200 hp. The bottom line is ED heals for way too *********** much.

 

And no, it doesn't take "everything" into account compared with your damage. Damage buffs do not affect heals last time I checked, just some of the damage stats help it a little.

Edited July 9, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[JP_Legatus]

In my opinion, juggs were the best tanks before the ED buff. They have the best selection of CC and their absorb shields and damage reduction talents are slightly better than the other tanks, and that is without factoring in ED (even if it is less effective for a pure tank).

 

Exactly. This is the issue. ED did not need to buff jugg tanks, they were already fine, it was the dps specs that needed help, and currently veng certainly doesn't need the extra ED it got.

Edited July 8, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Maudril]

Again, the stats in tank gear only cost you about 30% of your "dps stats" if you had dps gear. Try it out for comparison.

 

We've already mathed ED out to a possible "24k" which is more than double a wz medpac. I'm not sure why this is an issue for you.

 

If you're going to be an overtechnical idiot, technically I can heal to full with one tick of a marauders heal, as long as my health was only missing 200 hp. The bottom line is ED heals for way too *********** much.

 

And no, it doesn't take "everything" into account compared with your damage. Damage buffs do not affect heals last time I checked, just some of the damage stats help it a little.

 

So what you are saying is that tank gear has 70% of the DPS stats(Crit, surge, and power) that DPS gear has?

Maybe referring to the damage given by mainstat.

As you said later, not everything is taken into account. I know for a fact that crit, surge, and power count. I know for sure that ED doesnt heal to full in my PVE tank gear

 

Double a WZ medpack, so you think a 2 min defensive cooldown should only mitigate for 10k? Well ****, we gotta nerf Kolto Overload, Sorc bubble(How much damage does the bastion perk prevent? pretty sure that is more than double a WZ medpack as well), undying rage, and saber ward.

 

Stop the *********** presses, those defensive cooldowns can ALL mitigate twice the amount of damage that a WZ medpack heals for. Go home, you are all overpowered!

 

Overtechnical idiot? I am not sure on what grounds you presume to question my intelligence. All you have contributed so far is your expressed feeling that you think Enraged Defense is overpowered. All you have done to back up that claim is bleat "Heal to full!" so frequently that Eric Musco is now wondering if his pet parrot is wandering the forums.

Really, refuting a claim that ED is not a heal to full for jugtanks by saying that it is if its popped at half health, really? It makes perfect sense I suppose if you refuse to think about it.

 

Damage recovered and damage mitigated lead to the same end, damage dished out that was in the end not felt by the recipient. If you think a 2min defensive cooldown should only recover or mitigate 30% of our health, then take a look at the madness assassin. It has 30% DR on a 1min cooldown. I hope to see you on the Assassin forums saying that the Madness assassins need their AOE taunt on a 2min cooldown or reduced to 15% DR.

 

Where we disagree with Enraged Defense is a baseline of how much damage should be nulled with a 2min defensive cooldown. You say 30%, I say that the 80% or so for DPS and the ~35% or so Tevez said for the tanks is fine. Why it is fine for DPS to have such a potent DCD? Because their other defenses suck for a no-stealth no-range melee class.

 

Speaking of which, if Tevez is right and it is 35% without DPS stats, there ya go, not too far off your WZ medpack number. I'm gonna go read up on the tanking forums, I need more than anecdotes to say whether or not a power is OP

[JP_Legatus]

So what you are saying is that tank gear has 70% of the DPS stats(Crit, surge, and power) that DPS gear has?

Maybe referring to the damage given by mainstat.

As you said later, not everything is taken into account. I know for a fact that crit, surge, and power count. I know for sure that ED doesnt heal to full in my PVE tank gear

 

Double a WZ medpack, so you think a 2 min defensive cooldown should only mitigate for 10k? Well ****, we gotta nerf Kolto Overload, Sorc bubble(How much damage does the bastion perk prevent? pretty sure that is more than double a WZ medpack as well), undying rage, and saber ward.

 

Stop the *********** presses, those defensive cooldowns can ALL mitigate twice the amount of damage that a WZ medpack heals for. Go home, you are all overpowered!

 

Overtechnical idiot? I am not sure on what grounds you presume to question my intelligence. All you have contributed so far is your expressed feeling that you think Enraged Defense is overpowered. All you have done to back up that claim is bleat "Heal to full!" so frequently that Eric Musco is now wondering if his pet parrot is wandering the forums.

Really, refuting a claim that ED is not a heal to full for jugtanks by saying that it is if its popped at half health, really? It makes perfect sense I suppose if you refuse to think about it.

 

Damage recovered and damage mitigated lead to the same end, damage dished out that was in the end not felt by the recipient. If you think a 2min defensive cooldown should only recover or mitigate 30% of our health, then take a look at the madness assassin. It has 30% DR on a 1min cooldown. I hope to see you on the Assassin forums saying that the Madness assassins need their AOE taunt on a 2min cooldown or reduced to 15% DR.

 

Where we disagree with Enraged Defense is a baseline of how much damage should be nulled with a 2min defensive cooldown. You say 30%, I say that the 80% or so for DPS and the ~35% or so Tevez said for the tanks is fine. Why it is fine for DPS to have such a potent DCD? Because their other defenses suck for a no-stealth no-range melee class.

 

Speaking of which, if Tevez is right and it is 35% without DPS stats, there ya go, not too far off your WZ medpack number. I'm gonna go read up on the tanking forums, I need more than anecdotes to say whether or not a power is OP

 

You went form being somewhat reasonable to ******* crazy in like 3 seconds.

 

You want to compare what can be mitigated? Technically, reflect can mitigate an infinite amount of damage as long as each individual hit is less than a certain threshold and the number of attackers scales infinitely. Technically saber ward can mitigate infinite damage since the amount of incoming damage and heals can be infinite as well. INFINITE MITIGATION ON A JUGG DCD? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. This is how dumb your arguments are.

 

To start off, yes tanks do have crit, surge, and power. They just have LESS OF IT. For example, my min/maxed dps assassin has ~30% crit and if he takes all off the crit and puts it in power or defenses, it drops to ~17%. That's an increase of 13% crit for nearly every single moddable slot on the character. For surge, base is 51%. With dps stats that goes up to ~75%, so you gain roughly 13% *(75%-50%), or about 4% total ED heals from crit/surge by switching to your dps gear.

The vast majority of this change will come from mainstat/power. Again, tanks have mainstat/power, they just have less of it. About 25% less.

 

So I dusted off my partisan geared jugg tank with no augments and he has a base heal of ~14,700 from ED including crits. His total health is 33k. That is 44%. A wz medpac would do significantly less. That's with unaugmented non-min/max partisan tank gear from over a year ago, I don't know what it looks like with a full brutalizer set, and that's not accounting for the fact that with tank armor and other buffs your hp goes about 50% farther, making ED a lot more efficient for jugg tanks than it is for dps juggs, meanwhile they are healing themselves with intercede and providing "statistical healing" in the form of barriers provided by force scream. This doesn't even scratch the *********** surface of what tank juggs can do. They didn't *********** need the ED buff.

 

And 80% for a dps jugg? By one cooldown? Invincible is on a 3 MINUTE COOLDOWN and only mitigates 40% for 10 seconds.

 

For comparison, most good dps players are doing ~1700 dps ON A GOOD DAY so in the 10s window provided by ED they would do roughly 17,000 damage in that time. Assuming equal teams and opponents you're negating slightly over 86% of the incoming damage. THAT'S ON A TANK, and if you account for mitigation provided as a tank that 86% is a lot more. For a dps jugg, my jugg's dps gear which is also 10 months old does over 22k healing, which is well over 100% of the incoming dps even on a good day and is damn near double a wz medpac on a dps class. Pop your medpac or your EP and you've literally healed yourself to full (provided you actually make use of that extra HP from EP).

 

It's pretty obvious one of the two of us is full of ****, and it's not me. The bottom *********** line in all of this is that jugg tanks DID NOT NEED A BUFF and they got one anyways. As far as I'm concerned, dps juggs can have their overpowered ******** dcd, they were really crap for a long time as veng and the smash was always squishier than mara smash. They can have it. Tanks DID NOT NEED IT.

Edited July 9, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Maudril]

You decided to be an ******, and you completely missed my point. I thought perhaps speaking your language could help you sort out your feelings on the matter.

 

I never said the tanks needed a defensive buff, I am saying you are blowing the ED buff out of proportion regarding the tank.

 

Comparing a DCD to a WZ medpack is... I can't describe how stupid that is. Its comparing an apple to a full size meal. Full size meal is eating too much because it is over 4x the size of the apple you ate that afternoon.

 

I was one of those people using ED almost on cooldown before the buff in PVE(didnt tank PVP, back then), using it in conjunction with a taunt. 45 second cooldown and getting healed like that was nice, was not impressed by the healing provided by it when it went 2min on me. I posted a question on the tanking area to see what it healed for typically pre-buff and post-buff with the tanks. Tanks do not have the resource issues that Vengeance had, so ED was more useful for them at the time. We'll see how sharp of a buff it was for the tank. I do not think it is that impressive, whereas you seem to think they gave Jugtanks a whole new DCD.

 

1700 DPS on a good day? That sounds quite low, and very generalized. How did you get that number?

 

And come on, if the ED buff pushed the Jugtank far above the others in terms of survivability, you think the PVE community would keep quiet? The only changes I have seen asked about the Jugtanks by KBN lately were increase the threat done by saber throw, and *buff* their passive survivability (accompanied by a slight nerf to their DCD's. Jugtanks rely much more on their DCD's than the other two tanks).

I'll go check again, but if the Jugtanks are ahead of the other two in terms of survivability post-ED buff, its not by much.

[Maudril]

From the Tanking Forum. Vaidinah as I recall is an excellent NiM Jugtank, so I trust his word on the matter:

 

Enraged Defense was a good defensive cooldown in the past, especially so pre-2.0. This is because pre-2.0, the hybrid Jugg tank was the best spec for tanking and in here, ED gave us a 15% reduction in damage on top of the 3% heals on a 45 second cooldown. In comparison, Invincible gives us a roughly 30% reduction in damage (it says 40%, but it's not what you would think) on a 3 minute cooldown (2.5 minutes now). Enraged Defense was technically the 2nd best defensive cooldown Juggs had (after Saber Ward) back then. The aggro and Rage loss was difficult for most players to deal with, but with a lot of practice and thought, it could be worked around. I had explanations on how to utilize it in my guide, but since it has been changed, they were removed. Our other cooldowns used to line up really well with it like the AoE taunt (also 45 seconds), Enrage (45 seconds), and Endure Pain (90 seconds).

 

After 2.0 and before the change, it was still a pretty good defensive cooldown, but the full tanking tree is just straight up better than the hybrid for almost every fight so it only healed. It used to heal for 3% of our health, but only trigger once a second for 10 seconds. Ideally, a 30% heal every 45 seconds was really, really good, but realistically, that almost never happened. Endure Pain increases your max health so the heal went up as well for a maximum of a 39% heal. You could still get about 5 triggers for a 15-20% heal fairly consistently on most bosses when used correctly, though.

 

In its current form, you can get a static 2k heal triggered roughly 7 times when used correctly (all 10 in ideal situations) for about a 14k heal (33% of our health) on a 2 minute cooldown. Due to the bizarre and totally unnecessary "below 70%" requirement to use it now, it's less useful than it should be as well.

 

So overall, the change to ED made it significantly weaker as a defensive cooldown, especially compared to pre-2.0 ED in hybrid Jugg tank spec where the difference is more stark. However, it is much, much easier to use now with no loss to aggro or Rage so for most players' purposes, it's better for them because it saw little use by the vast majority of players. For the people who actually used it well before the changes, it's a big nerf and a dumbing down of what used to be an interesting and fun skill to master.

 

So the Nightmare Theorycrafters seem to agree with me that the ED buff was not much of a buff at all for the tanks. It remains roughly the same amount of heals, not much more if any. It also had its cooldown more than doubled, without doubling its healing for the tanks. So in terms of how much healing is done for the tank, its actually a decrease. If you had frequent uptime of Enraged Defense as a tank in a warzone, you *should* have more healing done then than you do now. If you didn't, you were not capitalizing on Enraged Defense. It strikes me as odd, because there is literally no reason for you not to use "Pre-Buff" ED in PVP. Threat is not a PVP mechanic, threat drops literally do nothing unless they have some other attribute (Pyro PT and Defense Rating, Arsenal Merc and damage absorbed, Force Camo disappear, damage decrease, and rootbreak(Carnage)).

 

Its a significant buff for jugtanks if they don't have tank gear on, if they only have DPS gear. If you don't, then you currently have your "More than a WZ Medpack" every 2mins. Pre "Buff" you had that 2x WZ medpack *every 45 seconds*.

Also a little tidbit, I read it works on Bonus Damage/Bonus Healing. I'll check up on that on my Jug in a few minutes, but pretty sure that a select few stats go towards that, and those are in DPS gear.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Maudril