Lotharofxev Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Is there any chance that TPTB can change the Reverse Engineer from, say, 10% per attempt to 10% cumulative? It's a bit of a head-scratcher when a 450 (INSERT CREW SKILL HERE), need 17 attempts to learn a 200 - level blue by RE'ing greens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Some who frequent this forum might be surprised by what I am about to say... But I agree . Crew skill level vs item being reverse engineered should be a factor. That being said, don't get your hopes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharofxev Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 I'd like to incorporate your idea with mine. Make the RE chance cumulative regardless of level (obviously level 100 crafters won't be making Rakata), and throw a bonus if said crafter is higher level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I disagree personally. If anything I would like to see it harder ( but retain the ability to RE GTN crafted mods etc. , I know they removed that ability for higher level gear but not sure if they did it for all purchasable gear? ). Main reason is the more people that are doing things the more flooded the market becomes and the less profit available. I don't see any reason why it should be "easy" - everyone gets enough schems from their crew skills vendor to make a lot of stuff anyway that they could use or maybe even sell for a profit - no need then to also make REing easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_riches Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I am going to have to disagree with this idea as it would mean that you are guaranteed to RE a item in 10 goes, which would "lessen" to some extent the worth of some of the blue or purple items as it would be easy to RE everything in the game, though I would admit I would like a higher chance of a successful RE (maybe even through a legacy unlock) so that it takes some of the pain away (especially since some items take so long to craft for a pitiful chance of success) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharofxev Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Profit or money is driven by the GTN. Not sure if you've checked recently but level 53 purple Earpieces can be found for under 20k. Materials sell for more than finished items unless you're talking about Dread Guard Implants / Relics. (At least on my server). So that argument is false. While you get "plenty" of recipes they are green. Show up for DF HM in greens and you will get kicked. There is a reason OPs drops something other than green gear. @ JEdi Riches - your statements contradict. First you disagree, then you state you want a better chance to RE via legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altheran Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) @ JEdi Riches - your statements contradict. First you disagree, then you state you want a better chance to RE via legacy. He's disagreeing on the method, but not on the intent. Edited June 20, 2014 by Altheran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_riches Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 If I was not clear I apologise but what I meant was not to have a cumulative % of RE, there still needs to be that element of chance on RE. My idea would leave it in a similar fashion as it is now but make 30% on green and 15% on blue rather than the 20% and 10% we get now but still that chance is per item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 How about making it so that after every X schematics you RE. you get a permanent bonus on future REs (per character, resets if you change crafting skill, ofc). Since the number of schems/craft is variable, it would make sense to use a rough % and then set the numbers for each craft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 If I was not clear I apologise but what I meant was not to have a cumulative % of RE, there still needs to be that element of chance on RE. My idea would leave it in a similar fashion as it is now but make 30% on green and 15% on blue rather than the 20% and 10% we get now but still that chance is per item. well with 2.0 they made it 20% and 20%. Not retroactive of course. How about making it so that after every X schematics you RE. you get a permanent bonus on future REs (per character, resets if you change crafting skill, ofc). Since the number of schems/craft is variable, it would make sense to use a rough % and then set the numbers for each craft. Not sure I understand completely. So let me try to clarify: Your first statement suggests that regardless of what a character REs in a given crafting skill...after say 500 REs that character gets a permanent bonus to all future RE attempts of like 5%. But then you go on to suggest that because every crafting skill is slightly different that the number of REs and the RE chance bump be variable (i.e. for cybertech it would take 500 REs to get a 5% bump but for synthweaving it would take 300 for a 7% bump). Is that accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazdika Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Profit or money is driven by the GTN. Not sure if you've checked recently but level 53 purple Earpieces can be found for under 20k. Materials sell for more than finished items unless you're talking about Dread Guard Implants / Relics. (At least on my server). So that argument is false. While you get "plenty" of recipes they are green. Show up for DF HM in greens and you will get kicked. There is a reason OPs drops something other than green gear. I assume you answer to this post here? Main reason is the more people that are doing things the more flooded the market becomes and the less profit available. This is true. Profit or money is mostly driven by supply and demand on GTN. Easier + faster RE success leads to more supply, which leads to lower prices and profits. I do not see how you get to the conclusion that this is wrong. Furthermore, in the first post you write about level 200 items that should be easier. I agree that one gets kicked with greens in DF HM, those are hardly level 200 items though. At endgame, the greens are useless, for sure. If I personally could warm towards your collective ideas here (yours + psandak's) it is in endgame. All the other levels would ge a resounding no from me. Less RE'ing for experienced crafters leads to less mats, and less items sold for younger ones. Before I see that balanced, I have to oppose. Edited June 21, 2014 by Nazdika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Not sure I understand completely. So let me try to clarify: Your first statement suggests that regardless of what a character REs in a given crafting skill...after say 500 REs that character gets a permanent bonus to all future RE attempts of like 5%. But then you go on to suggest that because every crafting skill is slightly different that the number of REs and the RE chance bump be variable (i.e. for cybertech it would take 500 REs to get a 5% bump but for synthweaving it would take 300 for a 7% bump). Is that accurate? Yes, but I said "schematics you RE", not just REs (in case I wasn't clear). Depending on the base item, you can learn one or three blues (and then one or three purples from each blue). For example, if you RE a green augment, you may or may not get a blue schematic, but you'll always get some components back. You'd only advance your "counter" when you actually learned the blue schematic. You can RE green earpieces for three separate blue schematics (so a possibility of +3 to the counter). Blue-to-purple would work the same way. Obviously, the number (and type) of base schematics for a given crafting skill is is specific to that skill, so I was thinking that the devs could just decide what the max RE% bonus would be (say +X%) and then divide the number of re-able schematics by X to get X "levels" of the bonus. So, casual crafters (who only target a few pieces) wouldn't get a break, but "dedicated" crafters would find RE''ing "easier" as they fully master the skill. The "main" reason I assume most people want a bonus to RE is for getting end-game schematics (or at least that would be a major advantage). Since there is no value learning blue or purple (or even green) for a lot of schems (since many of the items would have a small, if any, market), this would be a large time/cred/mat sink for "dedicated" crafters, so I think the characters that dedicate those resources to their craft deserve a break on learning the end-game schematics. Ofc, if the devs implement anything like this, it would be a great time to enhance the filters and list-loading algorithm for the crafting window [Also, it might be interesting to give a relative bonus based on non-trainer schematics learned as well -- encouraging people to hunt down all the extra schematics returned from running various missions, buying with Comms from the Comm Schematic vendor or various rep vendors, or buying from the GTN. If there was a bonus attached, it would make the mission ones a bit more valuable, meaning more money sunk into running missions or GTN fees.] Edited June 21, 2014 by eartharioch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 This is true. Profit or money is mostly driven by supply and demand on GTN. Easier + faster RE success leads to more supply, which leads to lower prices and profits. I do not see how you get to the conclusion that this is wrong. Some believe (IMO incorrectly) that every crafted item has an objective value: - the cost to acquire the materials based on ideal/average mission cost. - and a modest profit margin So no matter how much supply there is the value is constant. And if anyone dares to post an item above that objective value they are greedy and selfish. There are also those who could care less about the GTN, they want the schematics for their own use. They want to be self-sufficient and want to be that with ease. What they fail to realize is the unintended consequences: when they have it easy everyone has it easy. They may not care about the impact that would have, but there are a LOT of players who would care. But to heck with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharofxev Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 They want to be self-sufficient and want to be that with ease. What they fail to realize is the unintended consequences: when they have it easy everyone has it easy. The first part is true. I have a 450 crafter in every TS. But that doesn't mean "everyone" has access to my crafter. At the end of the day if I wish to make money from my crafting I'm still battling market forces, specifically supply v demand. (I'm assuming for every 450 (TS) who quits the game, there is somebody leveling their way to that point). Now, I could give away my wares. That however has a negative credit flow impact on me and affects my gameplay as I need to focus on credits more than objectives. (Sort of like how Casino was introduced before Housing. Sneaky) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) The first part is true. I have a 450 crafter in every TS. But that doesn't mean "everyone" has access to my crafter. At the end of the day if I wish to make money from my crafting I'm still battling market forces, specifically supply v demand. (I'm assuming for every 450 (TS) who quits the game, there is somebody leveling their way to that point). Now, I could give away my wares. That however has a negative credit flow impact on me and affects my gameplay as I need to focus on credits more than objectives. (Sort of like how Casino was introduced before Housing. Sneaky) You missed my point: if one person has an improved RE chance ALL players have the same improved RE chance, meaning that more players will have the ability to make those items, meaning the ability to make those items is "cheaper," therefore the value of those items is diminished. It goes back to a phrase I use a lot: what is good for the individual is not necessarily good for the community. Edited June 21, 2014 by psandak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 You missed my point: if one person has an improved RE chance ALL players have the same improved RE chance, meaning that more players will have the ability to make those items, meaning the ability to make those items is "cheaper," therefore the value of those items is diminished. It goes back to a phrase I use a lot: what is good for the individual is not necessarily good for the community. That really only applies to RE'ing schematics from items you didn't craft (i.e., end game gear), because the cost to acquire each item to RE is high (run an op until you win the base item drop or buy one off the gtn at prices close to or over 1M credits each). For all other items, you have 100% chance to learn the base schematic (either buying form trainer or using a schematic you get from a mission or buy off the GTN). Once you learn the base schematic, you just keep making the item and RE'ing until you get the upgrade you want, and repeat if it was green to blue and you want to learn a purple. At this point in the game, unless you are a brand new F2P player who doesn't want to spend real $ (in which case your crafting career pretty much sucks since your two characters get one crew skill each), it's just a matter of a small amount of money (to buy the base schematic and mats) and time to learn the desired schematic -- with a 20% RE chance, you are going to learn it eventually. The desire for a higher RE chance for learning these schematics is primarily to reduce the player time required, and letting players learn these schematics faster would have very little effect on the market. The reason I suggested tying an increase to RE chance to % of the RE'd schematics was specifically to gate the bonus to an activity that would take a substantial investment in time and credits. Side Thought: Setting up a system that gives a bonus to the RE% only when RE'ing items you made (i.e., not the end game items won in an op or bought off the GTN) would improve the quality of life for the player in most cases without disrupting the most sensitive market (end game items). This could be combined with my % based bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I do not deny that anyone with a modicum of patience and time can get every blue and purple schematic from RE. But, how many players actually spend that time doing so? It is the frustration factor that causes many players not to bother. Decrease that frustration and more players would bother meaning more would have the schematics. What I will deny is that frustration factor is not fun. RE is like playing the slots: pumping money into the machine may not be fun but hitting the jackpot certainly is...that is why people play them. With RE, those who "risk" enjoy the jackpot. Side Thought: Setting up a system that gives a bonus to the RE% only when RE'ing items you made (i.e., not the end game items won in an op or bought off the GTN) would improve the quality of life for the player in most cases without disrupting the most sensitive market (end game items). This could be combined with my % based bonus. And that will go off without a hitch.... YEAH RIGHT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I do not deny that anyone with a modicum of patience and time can get every blue and purple schematic from RE. But, how many players actually spend that time doing so? It is the frustration factor that causes many players not to bother. Decrease that frustration and more players would bother meaning more would have the schematics. That's the point of increasing the RE% as you increase the number of RE'd schems you learn...the more you learn, the easier (higher RE%) it is to learn even more, and since the bonus would work on end-game items, which are in limited supply (especially when a new tier becomes available), there is an incentive to learn many schems that would not be learned because they are theoretically useless (e.g., DPS item with tank stats). Basically, all other things being equal, when a new tier becomes available for crafting, players with the highest %RE'd bonus would theoretically learn the new schems before other players, and thus be among the first to be able to cash in on the new market. What I will deny is that frustration factor is not fun. RE is like playing the slots: pumping money into the machine may not be fun but hitting the jackpot certainly is...that is why people play them. With RE, those who "risk" enjoy the jackpot. That's going to vary person-to-person -- I hate playing slots because I find it boring. It's cheap, easy, and mindless, so if I'm in Vegas at 4am and I just want a few free drinks, it's a convenient place to park, but it's a means to an end, not an end itself (to me). OTOH, I know plenty of people who do enjoy it. TBH, I'd be happy if I could just press a "force learn" button and have the game "roll" until I'd learn the schem and keep track of how many rolls it took, then charge me for that many items, and mail me the schematic after the amount of time it would have taken me to craft and RE that number of items. I don't think it would be a good use of dev resources to implement that as a system, I'm just saying that it's the time I spend on those things that I'd want to cut, since I [personally] derive no pleasure from the process. And that will go off without a hitch.... YEAH RIGHT. If they can't implement that, then they should just go back to working fast food. The game already tracks an item's creator. Devs could just add it as a Legacy Perk (character-wide or legacy-wide) and set a fee for each of the levels from +1% to +X% (X being however many % they want people to be able to add). Then, when RE'ing an item with a learnable schematic, add the legacy bonus level to the RE% if and only if the item being RE'd was made by the crafting character. Unless you thought combining them was difficult -- I didn't mean merge the two methods, I meant I proposed two systems and both could be implemented independently but have a cumulative effect. Anyway, the current system works well enough as it is, so there are probably many more important things the devs could develop. It's boring, but it works. I just like theory crafting systems..it's fun to think about how the system could be improved without causing major market upheavals, but that doesn't mean I'm actually dissatisfied by what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Not saying they can't implement it. I am saying that it is not as easy as you think and chances are it is GOING to screw something else up. QA is not the issue. Adding new features to existing code is hard because you never know what weird interactions new code will have with the old. Just look at 2.8 for a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Reading over all this I really don't see any benefit to anything suggested thus far. Why should those that craft the most get any special bonus over those that may not have the time and/or patience to do so? They already have a HUGE lead in the time they can put in, their knowledge of them arket forces and how RE'ing etc. works compared to a casual player whose odds of success are already lowered by the point they most likely already RE less and thus obtain less schems. I personally think anyone willing to pull apart their lovely 180 gear for a shot at RE'ing for the schem all deserve the same chances. Risk vs reward. As for differing odds between GTN purchased items and crafted or picked up ... am I right in having thought I read you can no longer RE purchased items off GTN? I.E. it gives you the red error "schematic cannot be learned" or something? It may only apply to a certain level of gear or something but I'm sure I read this. If anything all the current suggestions thus far would do is dilute the market even more than it already is I would think and that wouldn't be fun at all, I enjoy the way the market is and already have a hard enough time as it is selling off 10 color crystals in 1 hit or what not. Basically ... if it ain't broke don't fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I agree. The time and effort put in is advantage enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts