Should something be done to improve defensive stats ?

[Uber_the_Goober]

True, but the most viable DPS classes in PvP have crit talents which bypass Shield/Absorb and Defense is useless against all Force/Tech(65% of attacks in PvP iirc). Here is a TL;DR read as to why HP is better in PvP.

 

And that post is why you and many others could say the same exact thing, but I'd believe it coming from you. You sir have the ability to not be a phallus, even when speaking from a position of superior knowledge. Good on you.

 

Maybe there's other factors involved here. I can only speak from my experience fighting against other players in the only remaining fun format in swtor pvp - reg 8 man warzones. And in my experience, I seek and destroy the juggs and pt's who stack endurance. 40khp+? Guess who's getting a flame target marker, and dropping quickly...

 

None of the tanks who understand (and implement) what L-Randle posted here will appear in a reg warzone anyway, because all 3 of them are too busy doing progression raiding or running ranked arenas. Which means I'll never see them. So the tanks who stack endurance that I come across, aren't worth their weight in spit.

[Zoom_VI]

And that post is why you and many others could say the same exact thing, but I'd believe it coming from you. You sir have the ability to not be a phallus, even when speaking from a position of superior knowledge. Good on you.

 

Maybe there's other factors involved here. I can only speak from my experience fighting against other players in the only remaining fun format in swtor pvp - reg 8 man warzones. And in my experience, I seek and destroy the juggs and pt's who stack endurance. 40khp+? Guess who's getting a flame target marker, and dropping quickly...

 

None of the tanks who understand (and implement) what L-Randle posted here will appear in a reg warzone anyway, because all 3 of them are too busy doing progression raiding or running ranked arenas. Which means I'll never see them. So the tanks who stack endurance that I come across, aren't worth their weight in spit.

 

Going from full endurance to full mitigation costs you 5k HP while only gaining 3-4% shield chance and 4% absorb. That's crap, full HP nets a longer TTK and makes you less susceptible to burst. Your regs anecdotes are just flat wrong.

[PrincessNuri]

Why don't we have two tanks each in mitigation gear and the other in endurance gear and have a high DPS burn them down 5 times each and see which burns faster?

[TheCourier-]

PVP tanks should use endurance augments, because a tank having 40000+ health makes killing the person that he's guarding very difficult to do. Tank tunnel works because of CCing a healer while DPS attack a tank. If the DPS are quick to cleanse the healer, then attacking a tank does not usually work well (an exception will be the newly buffed annihilation and madness specs, due to both of those specs doing a significant amount of elemental/internal damage). One other thing, is most healers don't do well at using their CC break. Edited June 4, 2014 by TheCourier-

[L-RANDLE]

1) Moot means completely useless. I think you mean "not worth it".

 

2) That may be true, but crits have little to do with it.

 

Moot=questionable

Questionable enough that you can easily justify carrying any other stat. Some do say its completely useless, I say carry one for the main shield/absorb because 20% baseline, but that's it.

 

 

I understand you are speaking about the stat allocation of shield, but saying crit being present has nothing to do with it is incorrect on a lot of levels. PvP has been and still is about burst damage. Shield has zero impact at preventing burst damage. Also if sustained/auto crit was removed it would make actually carrying a shield significantly more valuable as that switch would, as it would significantly increase tank survivability.

[L-RANDLE]

And that post is why you and many others could say the same exact thing, but I'd believe it coming from you. You sir have the ability to not be a phallus, even when speaking from a position of superior knowledge. Good on you.

 

Maybe there's other factors involved here. I can only speak from my experience fighting against other players in the only remaining fun format in swtor pvp - reg 8 man warzones. And in my experience, I seek and destroy the juggs and pt's who stack endurance. 40khp+? Guess who's getting a flame target marker, and dropping quickly...

 

None of the tanks who understand (and implement) what L-Randle posted here will appear in a reg warzone anyway, because all 3 of them are too busy doing progression raiding or running ranked arenas. Which means I'll never see them. So the tanks who stack endurance that I come across, aren't worth their weight in spit.

well I think there needs so be some separation between 40K tanks with raid gear on versus 40K PvP tanks. I know that was the rule of thumb, but since bolster has been increased along with the addition of brute gear, most PvP tanks should still be around 40K. I'm at 39 and still have some Conq/Obro arms/mod/enh and two Obroan relics.

 

EXP:1968

[Kespar]

And that post is why you and many others could say the same exact thing, but I'd believe it coming from you. You sir have the ability to not be a phallus, even when speaking from a position of superior knowledge. Good on you.

 

Maybe there's other factors involved here. I can only speak from my experience fighting against other players in the only remaining fun format in swtor pvp - reg 8 man warzones. And in my experience, I seek and destroy the juggs and pt's who stack endurance. 40khp+? Guess who's getting a flame target marker, and dropping quickly...

 

None of the tanks who understand (and implement) what L-Randle posted here will appear in a reg warzone anyway, because all 3 of them are too busy doing progression raiding or running ranked arenas. Which means I'll never see them. So the tanks who stack endurance that I come across, aren't worth their weight in spit.

 

I am a "career" tank. I have played a Juggernaut since launch. I played through mostly PVE until S&V NiM came out, I then switched full time to PVP, having casually played PVP before since launch. I play in a PVP guild, on a PVE server, because the EU PVP server is dead.

 

My jug is in full Brutalizer, and augmented fully for endurance, with a stim that takes me to a shade over 42k HP. I have the 2pc tank and 2pc dps set bonuses. The reason I say this is because it will show you that I have played one or two Warzones in the last few months, nothing more.

 

As people (who have clearly got more experience of BEING a PVP tank than you) have said, the difference between augmenting for mitigation stats and augmenting for endurance is not even worth discussing, as mitigation stats will not be effected nor effective enough by the small numbers provided by augments to make a difference to ALL OF THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF DAMAGE PVP OPPONENTS PUT OUT.

 

It's that simple.

 

All I can assume is that the quality of PVP tanks on your server is atrocious, or that you are just talking utter nonsense to troll the OP.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Kespar

[PrincessNuri]

I am a "career" tank. I have played a Juggernaut since launch. I played through mostly PVE until S&V NiM came out, I then switched full time to PVP, having casually played PVP before since launch. I play in a PVP guild, on a PVE server, because the EU PVP server is dead.

 

My jug is in full Brutalizer, and augmented fully for endurance, with a stim that takes me to a shade over 42k HP. I have the 2pc tank and 2pc dps set bonuses. The reason I say this is because it will show you that I have played one or two Warzones in the last few months, nothing more.

 

As people (who have clearly got more experience of BEING a PVP tank than you) have said, the difference between augmenting for mitigation stats and augmenting for endurance is not even worth discussing, as mitigation stats will not be effected nor effective enough by the small numbers provided by augments to make a difference to ALL OF THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF DAMAGE PVP OPPONENTS PUT OUT.

 

It's that simple.

 

All I can assume is that the quality of PVP tanks on your server is atrocious, or that you are just talking utter nonsense to troll the OP.

 

This guys knows his stuff, I will go for the Endurance route

[PhatMcMuffins]

Just another little thing that makes HP builds better than mitigation builds is % based heals (intercede with set bonus etc) Larger health pool = more health recovered. Its a little thing compared to the overall reason of why HP > Mitigation, but it still sides with HP

[Uber_the_Goober]

As people (who have clearly got more experience of BEING a PVP tank than you) have said, the difference between augmenting for mitigation stats and augmenting for endurance is not even worth discussing, as mitigation stats will not be effected nor effective enough by the small numbers provided by augments to make a difference to ALL OF THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF DAMAGE PVP OPPONENTS PUT OUT.

 

Noted, and accepted. I've been schooled. A tank who knows what he's doing will perform better going the endurance route.

 

All I can assume is that the quality of PVP tanks on your server is atrocious, or that you are just talking utter nonsense to troll the OP.

 

I'm going to go with atrocious tanks...because honestly...it's like smacking on a giant watermelon with a sword. It may be larger, but it still slices incredibly easy, and the extra 7k or 8k only gives them one or two more GCD's worth of life against my DPS character's burst. Sometimes it feels like all the worthwhile tanks on POT5 have different play schedules than me, or have abandoned the server/game altogether.

[Kespar]

I think that's a fair assessment, the key thing really is most of the time if people are attacking the tank then they are attacking the wrong thing. (assuming the tank is good!)

 

Burning the dps or healer said tank is guarding will hurt the tank if the person under guard is, say wearing pve gear. (a VERY common occurrence in regs on TRE)

 

To be a PVP tank you have to be three things. A masochist, not obsessed with killing red, and full of HP.

[Zoom_VI]

No, I was telling you how to gear on the assumption of incorrect information. I admitted I was wrong.

 

This might hold a smidge of weight if mitigation stacking was good for beginner tanks, except it isn't, in fact mitigation setup is probably even worse for newbies than it is for veterans.

 

Just stop please, your original claims are entirely from end to end incorrect, stop trying to weasel out of it.

[dudeyoumadbro]

I run full endurance as a Guardian Tank in PvP and I am a power house,

 

It takes at least 3+ people to take me down, If done right, I can solo 2 people easily.

[dudeyoumadbro]

I'm going to go with atrocious tanks...because honestly...it's like smacking on a giant watermelon with a sword. It may be larger, but it still slices incredibly easy, and the extra 7k or 8k only gives them one or two more GCD's worth of life against my DPS character's burst. Sometimes it feels like all the worthwhile tanks on POT5 have different play schedules than me, or have abandoned the server/game altogether.

 

Isnt true, you are forgetting to factor in CDs, SR for Jugs/Guardians.

 

the whole point of what everyone has been trying to tell you is a tank who stacks endurance, that knows what they are doing is dangerous in a WZ

[Uber_the_Goober]

Just stop please, your original claims are entirely from end to end incorrect, stop trying to weasel out of it.

 

What are you illiterate? I said, I was wrong. That's not weaseling. You still want to pin me to the wall for maintaining a view I no longer hold.

 

Wow...the internet makes people act so ridiculously.

[Kespar]

It takes someone with sense and humility to cede a point in a discussion (especially on these forums), so +1 redemption points to you for that. The point has been made, so stop ragging on the guy and get back to learning to play or complaining about class balance.

[Petnil]

Or maybe back to the original point of this thread. Is it fine that defensive stats are so low valued in pvp ? If not what can be done to improve defensive stats in pvp only. ?

[Kespar]

At this moment in time, I don't see why anything needs to be done to improve defensive stats, I don't see many PVP tanks complaining at the moment (bads aside, but I think we have covered that).

 

Guard is probably a bit OP if I am really nit-picking, but then if you are talking normal WZ's it doesn't matter overly, if its ranked, I think it works out ok IF the team you are on and team you are against know what they are doing.

 

TLDR I think PVP tanks are fine.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Kespar

[L-RANDLE]

Or maybe back to the original point of this thread. Is it fine that defensive stats are so low valued in pvp ? If not what can be done to improve defensive stats in pvp only. ?

 

AoE Crit debuff for T-6 in all tank trees, locked to stance.

 

It would instantly make shield more viable, and gives tanks what they need. The ability to prevent burst. Some of the autocrit talents would need to be adjusted to percentage based, if they are not already, but having a true tank would be indispensable under those conditions.

[JediMasterSLC]

No, I was telling you how to gear on the assumption of incorrect information. I admitted I was wrong.

 

The pathetic part would have been if I held to my thinking against evidence. Don't be a jerk about it.

 

You simply do not understand how this conversation has progressed, and you have misunderstood entirely what I've said. I can only hope to face you in a warzone one day, so I can make you drink your own tears, because internet forum fights are the only pathetic thing going on here.

 

You know, I was a bit of a jerk about it. Your admission of defeat was weasely, but at least you admitted it. As far as your last sentence: I have POT5 toons, 1v1?

[Zoom_VI]

I think a better option than debuffing crit (which does not make shield any better) would be to make it so that internal/elemental damage can be mitigated. As of right now there are several specs running around where half or more of their damage can not be mitigated by tanks at all. (madness, Advanced Prototype, Leth, Pyro to some degree)

 

Another thing that should be looked at is armor protection for tanks, since right now pretty much every spec that isn't a dot spec has copious amounts of armor penetration available, either passively or with armor debuff (or both.)

 

Or anything that strengthens tanks passively, since has of right now the only time a tank is capable of tanking is when it has a DcD running. (which is why guardians are the only true tanks in PvP atm.)

[Petnil]

I wouldn't mind guard loosing the pvp effect if instead tanks got a load of tools.

 

For Vanguard ex.

 

pulling a friend to you and healing the friend for half your own hp, loosing that hp yourself. 30 sec cooldown.

 

casting a shield on a friend to reduce his damage taken by 50% for 5 sec 20sec cooldown. (with no pvp effect on guard it doesn't seem OP)

 

"guard" run to a friendly and share damage done to him the next 5 sec. 20 sec cooldown.

 

smokebomb. cast a smokebomb that hides players inside it from ranged LOS (all further away than 5/10yards)drawback it also hides friendly players from ranged heals.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Petnil

[L-RANDLE]

I think a better option than debuffing crit (which does not make shield any better) would be to make it so that internal/elemental damage can be mitigated. As of right now there are several specs running around where half or more of their damage can not be mitigated by tanks at all. (madness, Advanced Prototype, Leth, Pyro to some degree)

 

Another thing that should be looked at is armor protection for tanks, since right now pretty much every spec that isn't a dot spec has copious amounts of armor penetration available, either passively or with armor debuff (or both.)

 

Or anything that strengthens tanks passively, since has of right now the only time a tank is capable of tanking is when it has a DcD running. (which is why guardians are the only true tanks in PvP atm.)

A crit debuff would lessen the likelihood of shield percentages being pushed off the roll.

 

Say they implemented a 20% debuff, recklessness would only be 65% crit instead of ~85%. Same thing with Smash/Scream, et. al. At least tanks would still have some chance at shielding burst damage, therby making it more viable..

/shrugs

[Zoom_VI]

A crit debuff would lessen the likelihood of shield percentages being pushed off the roll.

 

Say they implemented a 20% debuff, recklessness would only be 65% crit instead of ~85%. Same thing with Smash/Scream, et. al. At least tanks would still have some chance at shielding burst damage, therby making it more viable..

/shrugs

 

Except the only people with enough crit to push off shield are autocrits. Seriously shield hangs around the 36% to 40% range tops, nobody has 60%+ crit chance.

 

And you can't push off autocrits since autocrits are really a +100% crit buff which would put that ability at 125%+ crit chance. And you couldn't give tanks a big enough crit debuff to effect that without completely neutering non autocrit specs.

[JediMasterSLC]

Except the only people with enough crit to push off shield are autocrits. Seriously shield hangs around the 36% to 40% range tops, nobody has 60%+ crit chance.

 

And you can't push off autocrits since autocrits are really a +100% crit buff which would put that ability at 125%+ crit chance. And you couldn't give tanks a big enough crit debuff to effect that without completely neutering non autocrit specs.

 

Exactly.