Should something be done to improve defensive stats ?

[Petnil]

dps in pve augment mainstat

dps in pvp augment mainstat

tanks in pve augment shield/absorb/defence

tanks in pvp augment stamina

 

I'm pretty sure this is more or less the case. I know for serious endgame pvp you have seperate sets of armor so different augments for pve and pvp doesn't matter, but it just feels wrong to stack HP as tank. I guess that's the pve player talking.

 

If something is to be done it should ofc. be a pvp buff only. The simple thing would be to add a sideeffect to the toptier tank talent that boosts defensive stats v players only, but i dont know. I would hope it could be done more elegantly.

 

How about lowering the base value of guard and add more value to guard for every % of shield. for every 1 % shield you would get 1 extra % guard up to the max value of 50.

 

That would make shield valuable, and with high shieldrating the value of absorb will increase. That still leaves defence though.

[Uber_the_Goober]

tanks in pve augment shield/absorb/defence

tanks in pvp augment stamina

 

I'm pretty sure this is more or less the case.

 

It's not.

[Kespar]

It is the case for Juggernaut full PVP tanks.

 

Mitigation stats (in PVP) for the extra amount you will get for trying to augment in a PVE style manner will not show a worthwhile increase in TTK when compared to Endurance. PVE damage is much more sustained and designed to "match" better with the various forms of mitigation. PVP you will be getting all sorts of damage from all types of sources, Endurance is a balancer for that unpredictable incoming fire.

 

In PVP where your main job is to be a pain in the arse to everyone else - or in ranked where your job is to neutralise the other tank, guard swap and manage your stuns for hardswaps - Endurance is what is going to make the difference. When your guarded target is getting focussed you are going to take a lot of damage from guard, and endurance is what will give your healer (and your cooldowns) the best chance of keeping you up, mitigation won't help you enough there.

 

For "normals" its mostly irrelevant, for proper ranked, go endurance - I only seriously play a Juggernaut, as far as other tanks go, you would need to ask them, but the logic should remain roughly similar.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Kespar

[tanerb]

It's not.

 

what are you stacking?

[Uber_the_Goober]

what are you stacking?

 

I don't pvp tank, but i know a few who do, and endurance stacking isn't their best bet.

 

My dps chars, when facing a proper tank, will hit him like a wet noodle. this comes from mitigation and shield/defense.

 

moar hp doesn't help you when I'm burning you down. At all. It just prolongs the inevitable. Why do you think operatives cried about the useless shield probe? It was essentially "extra hp". It evaporated quickly.

 

I'm not gonna prolong this conversation - there's nothing to discuss. It's not a debate. Endurance is literally the most useless stat anyone can stack. For EVERY class.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't pvp tank, but i know a few who do, and endurance stacking isn't their best bet.

 

My dps chars, when facing a proper tank, will hit him like a wet noodle. this comes from mitigation and shield/defense.

 

moar hp doesn't help you when I'm burning you down. At all. It just prolongs the inevitable. Why do you think operatives cried about the useless shield probe? It was essentially "extra hp". It evaporated quickly.

 

I'm not gonna prolong this conversation - there's nothing to discuss. It's not a debate. Endurance is literally the most useless stat anyone can stack. For EVERY class.

 

/facepalm

 

I don't even know where to begin to explain how wrong this post is.

 

But I guess I'll start with this.

Survivability

Dread Palace

 

• Shadow: 73.3933%
  
• Guardian: 74.1169%
  
• Guardian (hybrid): 74.9887%
  
• Vanguard: 73.1754%
  

 

PvP

 

• Shadow: 57.4008%
  
• Guardian: 58.0441%
  
• Guardian (hybrid): 58.0374%
  
• Vanguard: 58.1033%
  

 

These values are the net survivability percentages, including all buffs, self-heals, damage ratios, active procs (like Energy Blast and Kinetic Bulwark), damage debuffs (like Slow Time), and more. Player armor penetration (e.g. talented or debuffed) is not considered, which slightly inflates the calculated survivability of vanguards. The only thing not included here are defensive cooldowns (like Resilience or Saber Ward). Higher numbers are better and represent a larger fraction of damage mitigated. Fully optimized Dread Forged and Obroan gear sets are respectively assumed.

 

Notice the disparity here. The problem is that pure tanks are not very "tanky" in PvP! There just isn't a lot of survivability to differentiate them from DPS. Sure, there is more survivability here than a DPS, but not that much more! And if a tank isn't really much more survivable than a DPS but still suffers from dramatically lower damage, then there is no benefit to bringing the tank rather than the DPS.

 

For comparison, here is the survivability for an average Combat Sentinel wearing exclusively offensive gear (i.e. zero defense rating):

 

• Without rebuke (0% uptime): 37.9177%
  
• Rolling rebuke (50% uptime): 44.6375%
  

 

So, hilariously, your average Combat Sentinel in full DPS spec and gear has nearly as much survivability as a pure tank in optimized defensive gear! Considering that sentinels get defensive cooldowns which are almost as good (or better) than those granted to tanks, there doesn't seem to be much of a defensive advantage to bringing a tank over a sentinel, while the offensive advantage to the sentinel is manifest.

 

emphasis mine.

 

See it now? That is a comparison assuming tanks in optimized mitigation stacked gear, and they are only 10% more tanky than a DPS sentinel. Oh and it doesn't include armor penetration so really this comparison is biased in mitigation's favor.

 

Endurance is to tanks as power is to DPS, its the only stat that doesn't have DR and its the only tank stat isn't RNG based.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[JediMasterSLC]

Increase defensive stats in pvp mods, AND/OR make defense chance work against kinetic damage (yellow dmg that is mitigated by armor).

[Petnil]

Increasing defensive stats in pvp mods v pve mods is a bad idea. It would just make pvp mods BIS for pve tanks.

The idea is to find a way to improve defensive stats only in pvp ex. via talented sideeffects.

 

Maybe make a tank take 15% less damage from players 2 sec after every dodge/parrry/shield.

[Uber_the_Goober]

/facepalm

 

I don't even know where to begin to explain how wrong this post is.

 

But I guess I'll start with this.

 

 

PvE =/= PvP

 

Case closed.

[tanerb]

I don't pvp tank, but i know a few who do, and endurance stacking isn't their best bet.

 

My dps chars, when facing a proper tank, will hit him like a wet noodle. this comes from mitigation and shield/defense.

 

moar hp doesn't help you when I'm burning you down. At all. It just prolongs the inevitable. Why do you think operatives cried about the useless shield probe? It was essentially "extra hp". It evaporated quickly.

 

I'm not gonna prolong this conversation - there's nothing to discuss. It's not a debate. Endurance is literally the most useless stat anyone can stack. For EVERY class.

 

You are wrong and you make yourself look like an idiot as you insist on it. Next time, do not make absolute comments on topics you don't know much.

[Vodrin]

I really think PvP tanks are best off stacking offensive stats. The opponent that is dead does no damage.

[Uber_the_Goober]

You are wrong and you make yourself look like an idiot as you insist on it. Next time, do not make absolute comments on topics you don't know much.

 

Really?

 

I absolutely state, without any hesitation, that a tank who stacks endurance will die against my dps much easier and more reliably than a tank who does not.

 

My source? Actually fighting against them in warzones. I don't fraps, so I have no video of myself doing this, but just try it for yourself sometime.

 

Again, PvE =/= PvP.

 

So now, I'm going to turn off the computer and go do some other more interesting things than try to fight your cognitive dissonance. Adios senor.

[JediMasterSLC]

Increasing defensive stats in pvp mods v pve mods is a bad idea. It would just make pvp mods BIS for pve tanks.

The idea is to find a way to improve defensive stats only in pvp ex. via talented sideeffects.

 

Maybe make a tank take 15% less damage from players 2 sec after every dodge/parrry/shield.

 

I didn't say increase pvp mod defensive stats up to top tier pve gear level.....

[JediMasterSLC]

Really?

 

I absolutely state, without any hesitation, that a tank who stacks endurance will die against my dps much easier and more reliably than a tank who does not.

 

My source? Actually fighting against them in warzones. I don't fraps, so I have no video of myself doing this, but just try it for yourself sometime.

 

Again, PvE =/= PvP.

 

So now, I'm going to turn off the computer and go do some other more interesting things than try to fight your cognitive dissonance. Adios senor.

 

You are wrong. Do you even 4s?

[TheCourier-]

Tanks are viable. If tanks were any more tanky than they already are, then regular WZs would be broke. A guardian tank being healed by a scoundrel can already score in huttball without dying. I've seen multiple solo queue arenas, where the tank guard swapped effectively, go to acid. Most full tanks are horrible at SWTOR. The few tanks who are very skilled at SWTOR are very noticeable in WZs and arenas.

 

Some people may say "regular WZs don't mean anything". I've got hundreds of ranked arenas played in season 2 across multiple characters. I like arenas, but I like WZs way more, and tanks are viable in both. As for team ranked, I have not gotten a chance to play team ranked this season (Pot5 has maybe 2-4 arena teams, all of which do not welcome new players). However, team ranked should not be the basis for buffs and nerfs to classes. There are literally around 16 people on Pot5 who actively do team ranked, while there are hundreds who play solo queue, and thousands who play regular WZs. Back when 8 versus 8 ranked was popular, team ranked should have been the basis for buffs and nerfs to specs of SWTOR.

 

When I play my sorcerer or operative, I very much appreciate having a tank on my team who has more than 40000 health, and guard swaps.

Edited June 3, 2014 by TheCourier-

[JediMasterSLC]

Tanks are viable. If tanks were any more tanky than they already are, then regular WZs would be broke. A guardian tank being healed by a scoundrel can already score in huttball without dying. I've seen multiple solo queue arenas, where the tank guard swapped effectively, go to acid. Most full tanks are horrible at SWTOR. The few tanks who are very skilled at SWTOR are very noticeable in WZs and arenas.

 

Some people may say "regular WZs don't mean anything". I've got hundreds of ranked arenas played in season 2 across multiple characters. I like arenas, but I like WZs way more, and tanks are viable in both. As for team ranked, I have not gotten a chance to play team ranked this season (Pot5 has maybe 2-4 arena teams, all of which do not welcome new players). However, team ranked should not be the basis for buffs and nerfs to classes. There are literally around 16 people on Pot5 who actively do team ranked, while there are hundreds who play solo queue, and thousands who play regular WZs. Back when 8 versus 8 ranked was popular, team ranked should have been the basis for buffs and nerfs to specs of SWTOR.

 

When I play my sorcerer or operative, I very much appreciate having a tank on my team who has more than 40000 health, and guard swaps.

 

Regardless, actions need to be taken to discourage tank tunneling. At the very least, If full tanks can't be buffed for the sake of lol regs and yolo Q balance, then hybrid tanks should be nerfed.

Edited June 3, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Petnil]

I'm not saying tanks aren't viable, they are, A hybrid tank even more so. Pvp tanks sure value defensive stats alot lower than pve tanks. Maybe that's ok though.

 

The thing is a full specced tank in tank armor does realy low dps. Going hybrid tank in dps gear you gain quite alot of damage compared to the mitigation you loose. I'm not saying full tank specced and tank geared isn't viable. I just feel they should outperform a hybrid.

 

Maybe it's not the tank stat. Maybe it's a matter of making full tanks do more damage. Dooing damage just isn't the first thing on my mind when i think tank.

[L-RANDLE]

Really?

Again, PvE =/= PvP.

 

True, but the most viable DPS classes in PvP have crit talents which bypass Shield/Absorb and Defense is useless against all Force/Tech(65% of attacks in PvP iirc). Here is a TL;DR read as to why HP is better in PvP.

 

A lot has already been said, but I will try to wrap up everything.

 

1. Defense only rolls against white attacks. Most of the "viable" specs in the DPS realm have Force/Tech heavy hitters. PT, Sin, Smashers, hell even Carnies (that deal a lot of white damage) have Force/Tech attacks as their main burst. Another issue is that the formula for Defense has a very shallow slope curve (when you add points from gear, see link below). This means with a limiting amount of gear slots, getting any meaningful amount of defense is pretty much impossible from a gear perspective. If you notice, most tanks have a skill/talent that increases defense by 50%+, to get that increase from gear, you would need over 4000 Defense from gear.

 

This also means, as a tank, you should somewhat devalue any defense talents in skill trees unless its a HUGE add.

 

2. As stated, Shield/Absorb only works on non-crit attacks. Most DPS are built around 20-25% sustained crit (which some argue is effectively more like 30-35%), and talents to Auto-Crit makes Shield/Absorb even more moot. I do carry a shield generator, but the reason being is that the base shield chance is 20% just for equipping it and tank stance. After that, you can get a few Shield/Absorb stats, but at the end of the day, they can still be bypassed by the bulk of DPS specs. I also should say, there is a difference between absorb and absorb rating. The latter is gear related and only acts, IF shield activates (as far as I know, but don't quote me on that). There are some talents/relics that I believe says "absorb", but acts more like Sage bubble(heal). Those are "good things" to spec/equip.

 

This also means, as a tank, you should somewhat devalue any shield/absorb talents in skill trees, unless its a HUGE add.

 

 

3. This leaves tanks with END. Basically, raw HP is the only undeniable tank stat worthy of discussion because of the above. Considering PVP medpacks and some tank talents work off of MAX HP, the choice is pretty much a no brainer. At the end of the day, having more HP + tank "given" CDs/Guard are what give tanks survivability. But the irony is those "tank given CDs" are given to just about every class. In a recent "debate", I told a guy that a Carnie Mara had similar or better DFCDs than some tanks. She/He pretty much called me an idiot, and I laughed because of this one idea.

 

Would you rather have a 50% defense increase or a 90% Accuracy debuff? with that understanding on how attacks calculated, I came to the following conclusion.

 

4. Tanks are not viable unless they stack high endurance DPS gear. There is no point in carrying large amounts of "tank" stats or even tankie "specs" for that matter in PvP. I been playing Hybrid Guardian since like 1.6, and even with the Smash nerf, I still deal decent damage as a tank, while being 100% viable by having the main mitigation talents of full tanks. TBH, tanks need to do this, otherwise a second healer is "better", especially if you have taunt capable DPS, as teammates. It's a lot to consider, but my personal opinion is tanks should stack END heavy DPS mods, a bit of Shield/Absorb, and ZERO defense.

 

 

Here is a sheet with the percentage distribution per point add. I am not sure if its up to date, but there hasn't really been much in the way of changes to these numbers.

 

Here is a link that explains why tanks are not even exactly viable in PvP, compared to most DPS specs. I have been beating this drum damn near 2 years, but finally a VERY knowledgeable player combines all the ideas into a digestible post/thread about it...

Edited June 4, 2014 by L-RANDLE

[L-RANDLE]

Maybe it's not the tank stat. Maybe it's a matter of making full tanks do more damage. Dooing damage just isn't the first thing on my mind when i think tank.

 

I proposed full specs get crit debuff talents that multiply with either defense or shield stats. That instantly makes shield/def more viable and adds to the meta layer of "being a tank". Having low damage is fine, but tanks should have "infinitely" more survivability than hybrids (spec and/or DPS geared). Right now, from my experience doing all three options, survivability is about the same, but the damage loss is significant at each level.

[JediMasterSLC]

L-RANDLE, how do you not know that, unless crit chance + shield chance > 100%, crit chance doesn't lower shield chance? The only time shield gets bypassed is when they get autocritted. Mentioning dps crit chances is pointless.

[Zoom_VI]

Really?

 

I absolutely state, without any hesitation, that a tank who stacks endurance will die against my dps much easier and more reliably than a tank who does not.

 

My source? Actually fighting against them in warzones. I don't fraps, so I have no video of myself doing this, but just try it for yourself sometime.

 

Again, PvE =/= PvP.

 

So now, I'm going to turn off the computer and go do some other more interesting things than try to fight your cognitive dissonance. Adios senor.

 

Dude you don't even have a tank, you do not and obviously don't want to understand how mechanics works, you should probably stop posting here.

 

Tanks are flat out the worst thing to be in SWTOR, if it wasn't for guard tanks would be as viable as DPS operatives, actually less since tanks don't even do well 1v1.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[L-RANDLE]

L-RANDLE, how do you not know that, unless crit chance + shield chance > 100%, crit chance doesn't lower shield chance? The only time shield gets bypassed is when they get autocritted. Mentioning dps crit chances is pointless.

 

I didn't say it "lowers shield chance". You have a 100 sided die on the attack type. Divided by 3 percentages. So if I have a sustained 25% crit chance and your shield is at 35%

 

Its 25%crit/35% shield/40% normal hit. Which means in addition to autocrit talents, you are already subjected to some degree of critical attacks, which can't be shielded, thereby making shield/absorb in the PvP realm moot.

 

Sorry if I didn't explain it enough, but this is the case.

[JediMasterSLC]

Its 25%crit/35% shield/40% normal hit. Which means in addition to autocrit talents

 

This is correct.

 

you are already subjected to some degree of critical attacks, which can't be shielded, thereby making shield/absorb in the PvP realm moot.

 

This is incorrect. If your shield chance is 35% without the presence of crits, and 35% with the presence of crits, how on earth can you think that the presence of crits makes shielding moot?

Edited June 4, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[L-RANDLE]

This is correct.

 

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

Getting hit ~65% of the time, without counting autocrits?

 

Considering that stat requirements to get that high, yeah, its moot.

[JediMasterSLC]

Getting hit ~65% of the time, without counting autocrits?

 

Considering that stat requirements to get that high, yeah, its moot.

 

1) Moot means completely useless. I think you mean "not worth it".

 

2) That may be true, but crits have little to do with it.