A reply to the devs question on Sage/Sorc Heals in PvP - ideas

[FerreusSteelTip]

Note: for all examples, I'm going to use the skill names of the sage.

 

Firstly, the main problem with sage/sorc heals in PvP is the reliance on casts. Because of such low dmg reduction, standing in one place for even a few seconds to cast heals can be detrimental to a sage. Especially in solo que with no tank.

Scoundrels and Commandos do better because they can kite and use insta heals. So even though the devs want to keep the sages as they are, unless they give them insta heal options, they will never be as good as the other 2 classes.

It's actually a simple fix. Treat Seer tree like Balance. And here's what I mean by it.

 

You don't want to imbalance the PvE sage. With some adjustments, it won't.

 

The skill, Amnesty, could be used like Telekinetic Balance for Healing Trance.

Make it spammable. Then use resplendence, 3 procs, to insta-cast Deliverance. Since that skill is useless at it's 2.5 second cast in PvP.

Now, lower the healing done by Healing Trance. Your numbers could better decide how. And lower the healing done by salvation.

Increase the initial heal of Rejuvenate by a moderate amount. But lower the HoT afterwards.

If you do all of this, sage can heal more effectively while kiting.

 

Force management wise. Yeah, give ONLY PvP sages the set bonus that removes the health cost of noble sacrifice.

Keeping it as is in PvE is fine. PvE healing on a sage is easy enough as is.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Seems that not very much people are interested in this discussion at all.

Which says a lot about how many Sage / Sorc healer players are around here ...

If this thread was about PTs, Jugg, Mercs etc. then it would have been full in a few minutes ...

[scylence]

no the problem is healing being too powerful (mainly while guarded) is a big topic right now. I would love to see Sorc/Sage heals get a buff in multiple departments but I don't think its feasible balance wise until scouperative heals are nerfed, and so is guard or there are more hard counters added for both.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

no the problem is healing being too powerful (mainly while guarded) is a big topic right now. I would love to see Sorc/Sage heals get a buff in multiple departments but I don't think its feasible balance wise until scouperative heals are nerfed, and so is guard or there are more hard counters added for both.

 

Yea, Guard needs some sort of counter. I would say if the Guarded Target is Taunted with AOE or SST, then their guard would be removed. Also certain abilities if talented would remove Guard, say Hidden Strike for Concealment, Spike for Madness, Creeping Terror for Madness (Sorc only), and a few others.

[MidichIorian]

I think the changes to consumption they were talking about could go a long way because one of the problems now is that you have put your management first even when you're under pressure. If we could take away that element we'd be able to clip a trance, bubble more etc. Now, if that change also included taking consumption off the GCD or somehow had an individual CD it would be even better.

[AlrikFassbauer]

There won't be any changes for Sages / Sorcs, because there simply are not enough people playing them to ignite a massive "whining storm" - to which the devs ALWAYS responded when it came from damage-oriented classes ... Edited May 30, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[MCaliban]

Could you possibly repost the question or at least link to it?

[Ramalina]

Here's a quote of the answer section, the post as a whole is stickied in the Jedi Consular>Sage forum.

 

A note for those that lack reading comprehension, in terms of feedback they want:

Constructive suggestions.

Suggestions that don't fundamentally change or overpower Sage/Sorc PvE healing.

Suggestions to be posted in the Answers thread so that they can find them.

 

PvP - Seer Spec Issues

 

 

Currently, Sage healers have a number of issues that affect their play. First, Sages are nearly 100% reliant on casted healing abilities. Our only instant healing abilities are Force Armor and Rejuvenate. Force Armor has a long lockout and Rejuvenate is a small heal mostly used to proc Conveyance. Salvation can be cast instantly, but it requires using Healing Trance (and usually Rejuvenate) as a set-up.

 

In PvP, this causes great issues, because while Sage healers are capable of putting up great numbers because of Salvation spamming, under heavy pressure a static AoE heal is not ideal in the frenetic PvP environment.

 

The Noble Sacrifice/Consumption mechanic is really unique, and the community agrees that in PvE at least it provides Seer/Corruption with a sensible mechanic for restoring Force. In PvP, this mechanic presents very serious problems. Sage healers are one of the priority targets for being focused and in that situation purposefully sacrificing your health to maintain force is not possible. This is exacerbated by the issue of Sage healers being reliant on casts. This puts the Sage in the unenviable situation of having to stay still to restore health and Force.

 

Also, while Benevolence has its uses in emergency situations and off healing as a DPS, for Seer Sages this ability is very underwhelming and rarely used. In your 2.0 blog you mentioned that the ability is to be used when Force efficiency is not a concern. Unfortunately, in most emergencies efficiency is a concern as wasteful rotations will only lead to a prolonged emergency.

 

 

Are the developers considering any changes to Seer spec to reduce the heavy reliance on casted abilities or to improve force management in a way that is not detrimental to survival? For example, improving Rejuvenate, reducing the lockout duration of Force Armor, or removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice via set bonuses?

 

Sage/Sorcerer healers, we hear you and we see that our data validates what you are saying – as it shows you are currently performing behind both Scoundrel/Operative healers and Commando/Mercenary healers in PvP. We do not currently have any plans to share with you on how we intend to improve Sage/Sorcerer healing in PvP, but it is a priority for us, and we would love to hear your own ideas on how you would like Sage/Sorcerer healing to be improved in PvP without also making Sage/Sorcerer healing too good in PvE. We will say in advance that, “make such-and-such ability activate instantly,” is not a solution we are likely to consider (unless it is a temporary buff triggered by something else, and not a permanent reduction of activation time). Our goal is to keep Sage/Sorcerer healing as close as possible to the way it is in PvE, while improving how it performs in PvP.

 

Now here are some questions for the Sage/Sorcerer community, regarding Noble Sacrifice/Consumption. Do you believe removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice/Consumption as a PvP set bonus would be something that PvE Sage/Sorcerer healers also feel like they need, or are PvE Sage/Sorcerers happier with their current set bonuses? If it is something that PvE Sages/Sorcerers would rather have as well, then which current PvE set bonus would you want to give up for it? Do you think that having a health-cost-free Noble Sacrifice/Consumption would be too good for PvE? Do you believe it might take away too much of the challenge for healing in PvE situations?

 

Please let us know your thoughts about these issues in your replies to this post. We will be listening, and we appreciate your feedback.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=744247

Edited May 29, 2014 by Ramalina

[Gnoblesse]

Yea, Guard needs some sort of counter.

 

 

Lol. It has one already - the range isn't unlimited, so..use a pull or a knockback or something similar to separate the guard from the guarded target.

 

Failing that, CC the tank so he can't switch guard, and focus another non guarded target.

[sithBracer]

I heard that sorcs used to have a resurgence proc that made their next dark infusion instant. It was glitched and healed them twice so it was removed completely. Maybe bring this back with a 10 second lockout to the proc after use of dark infusion? Currently just reducing the force cost is pretty useless.

 

Or maybe a successful dark heal proc that will cut the cast time of dark infusion in half.

 

As for the set bonus question, yes it would definitely be worth it as a 2 piece set bonus, the current healers set bonus is completely lacking. They are probably the worst set bonuses in PvP. I honestly prefer the PvE set bonus when I heal.

[Pistols]

Yea, Guard needs some sort of counter.

 

Guard is fine.

[NotAnyOldName]

Lol. It has one already - the range isn't unlimited, so..use a pull or a knockback or something similar to separate the guard from the guarded target.

 

Failing that, CC the tank so he can't switch guard, and focus another non guarded target.

 

This,.. stop tunneling a guarded target and expect to win. As it stands the game requires a little more co-ordination and skill then that and I would hate to see guard nerfed to bring the games standard down for the less skilled players and losing what little skill factor there is left.

[Raazmir]

Game developers need to stop linking cast bars to park and barking like a turret, there's no reason certain, if not most abilities shouldn't continue to cast while you're moving.

[scylence]

Game developers need to stop linking cast bars to park and barking like a turret, there's no reason certain, if not most abilities shouldn't continue to cast while you're moving.

 

I agree mostly with this. More fluid and mobile combat all around makes for a more enjoyable experience, and raises the skill cap.

 

I put having stand still channel abilities on melee classes (Flame thrower, Ravage and choke) up there with making a stealth class also a healer... it's like the down syndrome of game design.

[FerreusSteelTip]

no the problem is healing being too powerful (mainly while guarded) is a big topic right now. I would love to see Sorc/Sage heals get a buff in multiple departments but I don't think its feasible balance wise until scouperative heals are nerfed, and so is guard or there are more hard counters added for both.

 

I agree that guard needs a nerf.

And here is what it needs to be.

Make it so the guarded target gets a 15% damage reduction. Maybe even lower. Like 10%

take away the 50% absorption.

 

Make it to where the guard is helpful, but not OP

That way the tank and other people in the group has to actually learn to peel

 

btw, I say this while maining a tank

[FerreusSteelTip]

There won't be any changes for Sages / Sorcs, because there simply are not enough people playing them to ignote a massive "whining storm" - to which the devs ALWAYS responded when it came from damage-oriented classes ...

 

most gave up because of them being hard to play.

That said, most HAVE them

Most on this game has like 10 55s or more

[FerreusSteelTip]

This,.. stop tunneling a guarded target and expect to win. As it stands the game requires a little more co-ordination and skill then that and I would hate to see guard nerfed to bring the games standard down for the less skilled players and losing what little skill factor there is left.

 

 

what about the instances where hybrid heals and hybrid tank are in solo que?

no, guard needs nerfed

[Master-Nala]

The improvements need to be to Rejuvenate and Force Armor.

 

Remove Rejuvenate's cooldown and buff its periodic healing;

 

Lower Force Armor's lockout timer considerably.

 

Maybe make Salvation put a HoT on everyone who was in range at the initial cast and not who stays in the patch.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Master-Nala

[MCaliban]

Most on this game has like 10 55s or more

 

What are you smoking?

[Master-Nala]

What are you smoking?

 

Most is a big strong, but you would be surprised how many altoholics there are among hardcore players.

[AlrikFassbauer]

most gave up because of them being hard to play.

 

Then it is WAI (Working As Intended), because the devs stated several times that the Sage / Sorc classes are "easy to learn, hard to master" and that mastery of both "might require more cskill than most people are comfortable with" (cited from my memory, but I know that these are not the 100 % original words).

 

Which on the other side means that - according to the devs - there SHOULD be only a small number of Sorcs / Sages within the game ...

[AdrianDmitruk]

What's the point of giving the devs feedback, when they have ignored such feedback for the past 6 to 9 months?

[masih_ad_dajjal]

like I've stated in other posts sorc/sage need a spam-able instant heal weather that be a reworking of dark heal/benevolence or resurgence/rejuvenate in combination with a tweak of static barrier/force armor...

 

scuop heals is the best primarily and almost solely from surgical probe/emergency medpac...

 

and sorc/sage need better resource management.

Edited May 30, 2014 by masih_ad_dajjal

[WooduckAUS]

Sage output is not in a REALLY bad place, just needs a little tweak, if anything. I like the idea of a small nerf to scoundrels better tbh.

 

8m reg pvp is fine, sages can do really well there. I prolly average 1-1.5mil in regs. 2mil+ if conditions are perfect. Not very often does my sage get out healed.

 

4m ranked is where we need help..... 2 big problems i see. Casting and salavation.

 

I don't think we need any major rework, just a small tweak.

 

For casting, maybe rework mental alacrity with either a shorter cooldown or possible work like a full bar or resolve and give total immunity for 10 secs. That would help with the casting situation. Shorter cooldown and interrupt immunity would work imo.

 

Salvation. What can i say about this.... top tier ability and virtually useless in ranked. 1st reason is tied in with the first problem i described, casting. 2nd issue, everyone has to sit in it, group for 10 secs for it to work. 3rd issue, IF you get all 4 people in it (which i wouldn't recommend in ranked...) its a fairly lack luster heal on only 4 people.... This is our top tier ability and you can barley use in in ranked.

 

Like someone said before, give salvation a hot, so people can run through it to get heals and then a hot after they leave. Would be a great help for pve and pvp utility. 2nd idea might be making it instant. I honestly don't believe it would make us op in pve but would give us another option while being targeted in pvp. Then change the buff of resplendence to maybe help the other heals THAT WE CURRENTLY HARDLY EVER USE. This option would be a nice rework that imo, would be welcomed with the sage community.

 

As for set bonuses, i think the idea of removing the lose of health for noble sacrifice is rubbish. This is the only interesting part of our healing rotation atm. We have to balance our health/force while healing. Also in ranked, you won't be alive long enough to need to use noble sacrifice..... Currently i use 2 piece pve and 2 piece pvp. for the reduced bubble cooldown and reduced healing trance cooldown, BOTH essential in any form of pvp. Haven't thought about it too much but what about insta-salvation for a 4 piece bonus for pvp. Don't think the benefit would be enough for pve peeps to use all 4 pieces but would make a huge difference for the pvp community.

 

I'm not suggesting all of the changes are needed, maybe 1 or 2 just to help our utility in pvp AND pve.

[WooduckAUS]

like I've stated in other posts sorc/sage need a spam-able instant heal weather that be a reworking of dark heal/benevolence or resurgence/rejuvenate in combination with a tweak of static barrier/force armor....

 

If thats what you want, go roll a scoundrel....

 

I don't want the play style of a scoundrel on my sage. Playstyle is fine, just needs tweaking for ranked pvp utility.