Mega_Fallos Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) Look who are play group and solo ranked wz and u will see "paper classes". Paper classes now are sorc/sage's full mid spec and operative dps. Every1 know that oper dps in ranked wz without healer in grp - waste place. Marauder carnage spec is in every ranked top group Edited May 29, 2014 by Mega_Fallos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Juggernauts were an example of someone saying they were a little hard to tank with and doing poorly in ranked PvP so they get basically an extra life every 2 minutes. Now someone says that PT Pyro tech has low damage in PvE so they give more than a one third damage buff. That is the real problem. After we suffer through PTs being insanely OP in PvP they will knock it down to 15% or something. But how many months will it take?I honestly have no idea why they'd monkey around with pyro's CGC. the spec is the most balanced melee in the game. it's a jack of all trades and master of none. it's an accessible class but only the highly skilled players can maximize it (usually more about staying alive and timing burst). their merc cousins are living in hell because they lack survivability rather than burst. as for PVE, I don't understand how a dot spec capable of tremendous burst is a bad thing for a boss fight. I'm not the expert on pve, but it just seems odd. you'd think a dot spec with very good sustained, very good burst, very good range, and good/average survivability would be an excellent dps to carry in any scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Marauders only have 5 defensive cds, one of the highest burst in game (carnage), highest cleave damage (smash) and soon very very high sustain (annihilation) paired with high group utility. It's a L2P issue. Baddies gonna bad... KTHXBYE pretty sure AP PTs cleave is harder than any smasher's cleave (mind you, cleave means someone not targeted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Look who are play group and solo ranked wz and u will see "paper classes". Paper classes now are sorc/sage's full mid spec and operative dps. Every1 know that oper dps in ranked wz without healer in grp - waste place. Marauder carnage spec is in every ranked top group doesn't matter if he has a healer. put a net and 3 dps on him and it's still an instant kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scylence Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) Look who are play group and solo ranked wz and u will see "paper classes". Paper classes now are sorc/sage's full mid spec and operative dps. Every1 know that oper dps in ranked wz without healer in grp - waste place. Marauder carnage spec is in every ranked top group Well I don't agree they are in every top group, they are in quite a few I will give you that, but at the same time there is no way to prove they aren't there mostly for the group buffs and are in reality being carried for the most part. Oper DPS is not a wasted placed without a healer.... lol You bring smuggle to the table, AOE flashbang, single target stun, stealth mez. If you are full scrapper/conceal you have great on demand burst and consistent high damage hits, if you are lethality/DF you don't really have the burst but make up for it in straight DPS and survivability. I have won 1v2 at the end of ranked before as Lethality. full Middle tree Sage/Sorc (TK) sure I will agree with you there because they are so immobile and so vulnerable to interrupts. I wish Forcequake would be put back into the tree and made into a powerhouse ability on a proc. Edited May 29, 2014 by scylence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyroman Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 There is certainly a way to prove this. Lets take Carnage/Combat for example. The highest portion of your damage is mostly done by Ravage in a gore window. While using Ravage the Mara/sent is susceptible to all CC, whilst the target is only rooted. The target can also break free from the root involving the many talents that do so, AND CC breaks/immunities in the game. Now take the amount of CC all classes have access too including other mara/sents. Also take in to account how low the cds on those CCs are, how many of them are AOE etc etc. Now you also have the broken resolve system. I already thing having a stand still channel ability for a melee class is very backwards and stupid game design to begin with but that is a different topic all together. So with the above, compare that to any other DPS spec. I will compare to some of the other ones I have Pyro PT? I get stunned middle of my burst rotation, sure its a small set back, but It doesn't really stop my burst. TK sage? I eat maras and juggs alive if they arent smash, and my burst requires me to be stationary for the majority. Slinger? Same as TK sage but even more-so for most classes I face. You won't be spending much time in my face when im playing this. God forbid I setup shop in a place like on a pipe in quesh, now we are talking about wreaking havoc on your entire team with ease. Sin? Sure it doesn't have anywhere near the pressure a Mara or Jugg, and somewhat less then a PT, the sin still has very easy to use burst rotations, and far less RNG then Mara/Sent. It also has a huge factor that most take for granted (and have trouble using correctly / thinking outside the box with) AKA STEALTH. Extremely powerful tool. But ofc thats just talk, and you'd come to the same conclusion comparing the classes on paper as well. Playing is where the proof is. Even watching the so called "top" mara/Sent streams that don't play smash.... Every single time I watch them in ranked..... I see them being carried. It is obvious to me at least. Also just so people are aware.... cuz I see it a lot... trying to use "Mara/sent is just a harder class to play" or something along those lines as a part of your argument that there is no changes needed is BY DEFINITION a logical fallacy, whether I agree with it or not. The fact that you believe the bolded part is true isn't helping people believe that you know the class well enough to argue this much about it. It may be the highest damaging ability (if you can finish the channel) but by no means should it take up the highest portion of a carnage marauder's damage. Carnage's most common burst ability is scream, and should also take up most of it's damage (when counting burst abilities) Since you like evidence, i will show you some. I will take the top 100 people in solo and grouped ranked (to take skill out of the equation as much as possible because anyone in the top 100 is very skilled) and compare classes. The list will be from most common to least common as of right now and in imperial terms. Note that this isn't exact because it doesn't take into account how many of each class is played (an overpowered class might be played more than others which could skew results a bit) Solo: Juggernaut: 27/100 Operative: 18/100 Assassin: 12/100 Marauder: 11/100 Powertech: 11/100 Sorcerer: 10/100 Mercenary: 6/100 Sniper: 5/100 Marauders are in the middle of the pack, that would suggest that they are balanced compared to the other classes. Grouped: Operative: 18/100 Assassin: 17/100 Marauder: 15/100 Powertech: 15/100 Juggernaut: 12/100 Sorcerer: 10/100 Sniper: 8/100 Mercenary: 5/100 Marauders are in the middle again with no class greatly outperforming them Before you start saying that we can't balance off of top few %, what would you rather balance it with? If you say the average player, than tell me, how do we measure who the "average players" are? The only measurement that we have in this game is ranked, so we must either go from that, or to not balance at all, it should be an easy choice between the 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberneticDucks Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Why would anyone play a Marauder in pvp? Bioware has turn them into paper dolls. Their attacks are like mosquito bites, and are vulnerable to all kinds of impair effects. Bioware should delete the class from the game in it entirely, and come up with a new class of Sith. my marauder isn't too tough, but 1 on 1 i can kill almost anyone and only lose 20% of my health in the process. i slow them and reduce their healing recieved, i gain rage faster than i can spend it, my stun (force choke) has a 10 meter range, GAINS energy, and only has a 45 second cooldown in rage spec. ravage is deadly already, has a 30 second coolown, and i can deal 36% more offhand damage at 55 when i overflow into carnage. i also suck at pvp as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawginole Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 good maras still best melee dps output I'm pretty sure and still see them in group ranked. Sentinels are definitely one of the best dps in the game when guarded, constantly healed, or fighting a PvP dummy on your ship. At this point I am entering a fight and getting stunned, rooted, or hit by someone out of stealth for 50-60% health before I can start my rotation. Now naysayers will chime in about Combat having the highest single target burst in the game. True. But at 40% health with a massive RNG ramp up for Opportune Strike proc, there is not even time to execute one full rotation. I have played Combat spec since launch and currently play a Smash Jugg, Saw Bones Smuggler, and Infiltration Shadow in WZ's. My Sentinel is in full min/maxed Brutalizer and is by far the hardest to play skill wise and competition wise based on the current class balance. A properly min/maxed Sent SHOULD be a glass cannon, but it also shouldn't completely blow up in one global. If it is then it is no longer a glass cannon and is rather just a paper tiger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCourier- Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 The undying rage nerf needs to be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberneticDucks Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 The undying rage nerf needs to be removed. i will not use any ability that drains any amount of health like consumption or undying rage, i'd prefer a huge heal for 30 fury. something that restores 50% health. consumption makes no sense because sorcs, especially lighting sorcs, are made to never run out of energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztian Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Marauders are a joke so are Sel's my operative have not yet lost to any.. easy kills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cretinus Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) Marauders are fine and urgently need to l2p. Edited May 29, 2014 by Cretinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxSHOONYxx Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 doesn't matter if he has a healer. put a net and 3 dps on him and it's still an instant kill. You mean like every spec of every class (excluding the lolbubble) ? Maybe you are not supposed to be able to survive 3 dps focusing you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxSHOONYxx Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 as for PVE, I don't understand how a dot spec capable of tremendous burst is a bad thing for a boss fight. I'm not the expert on pve, but it just seems odd. you'd think a dot spec with very good sustained, very good burst, very good range, and good/average survivability would be an excellent dps to carry in any scenario. It's less about the type of damage (sustained/burst) and more about the total amount of damage. Pyro powertechs are (2.8 hasn't arrived yet) on average doing 300-500 dps lower than other classes. Their burst isn't really that high (ooooooo controversial) it's more that they can line abilities up to all hit close to the same time, so instead of a 3k hit then a 6k hit then a 8k hit, you just feel 17k damage all at once. Great for PvP, not so much for PvE. Their sustained damage is ~meh and very reliant on RNG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sappharan Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Okay let me try again: Cloak of pain: can be countered with long ccs. How often does is happen, that you are standing in a cc that long? And even if you are it's just poor cd management, as you could have waited, until the other guy blew all his ccs. Then again other classes CDs can be countered by ccing them while they are up. The only difference is that if you are doted for example your CoP will run for 30s. Pretty nice, if you ask me. Undying Rage: What do you want? A godmode CD, that cant be countered? Saberward: is awesome. One of the most powerfull cds in the game. Force Camo: has like a 1min cd? can break roots. Can be used defensively and offensively at the same time and reduces damage taken by 50%. Every other class would be *********** happy to have smth like that. Obfuscate: powerfull cd and if used right you can **** up alot of people's rotatios If you are getting kited, you are doing it wrong. Every spec has a ******** of roots and slows. Is this enough to showcase that it's a L2P issue? You really don't know the class, do you? You're either misinformed or glossing over a lot of the balancing aspects of each CD listed. For instance, Force Camouflage only lasts 4 seconds and only breaks roots high in the Combat/Carnage tree. It is not available to all three specs. Pacify/Obfuscate does nothing against Force/Tech attacks. There are other problems with your argument that I won't detail here, but it is fascinating to watch people employ so many logical fallacies in an attempt to overstate the viability of something. FWIW, I don't think that Combat/Carnage needs a buff, but it irritates me when people characterize the class/speciication as more powerful than it really is. Edited May 30, 2014 by Sappharan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) You mean like every spec of every class (excluding the lolbubble) ? Maybe you are not supposed to be able to survive 3 dps focusing you he dies faster than any other spec was my point, so his ability to dps is moot.. don't care how good you are. you'd be better for you team on any other AC. edit: and you're not supposed to have 3 dps focusing you in an arena. the meta is screwed up. Edited May 30, 2014 by foxmob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaingSkiratapwns Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Its getting some buffs in the coming patch. Let's see how it does after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaimelion Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 he dies faster than any other spec was my point, so his ability to dps is moot.. don't care how good you are. you'd be better for you team on any other AC. edit: and you're not supposed to have 3 dps focusing you in an arena. the meta is screwed up. Have you ever played a DPS operative or an AP PT or a merc DPS or a madness Assassin? Then you know what low survivability feels like. It's just marauders not knowing how to use their CDs. ATM vengeance Juggs are the only ones with better overall survivability (not considering healers here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanchito Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 i think marauders are fine but you can't really contest that currently a jugg is almost always better, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusFTW Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) L2p just because jugs got a ridiculous CD doesn't mean that maras are suddenly "paper dolls". Edited May 30, 2014 by AngusFTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord_Maliken Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) 4v4 ranked arena earlier today. My juggernaught has all best in slot augmented pvp gear. I didnt have any defensive cd's. Me vs Marauder I have no cooldowns at all. its a toe-to-toe dogfight Marauder charges me 4 seconds pass Marauder kills me The end they do incredible burst damage. and they can survive a very long time with their cooldowns. Does my juggernaught need a buff since i died in 4 seconds in 1v1? Naw. i didnt have cooldowns. but still. thats WOW dmg. it happened. Just saying. Frankly i think this games entire structure is atrocious - from class structure to world layouts but whatevers i wont /debbiedowner. Just thought i'd share that fun play by play. Edited May 30, 2014 by Warlord_Maliken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtanios Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The Marauder class is still on top of the food-chain, its just that they aren't 4x better then all the other classes anymore. I have always played Annihilation (even before the rage nerf) and i do very fine. I might not top the damage numbers but then again who cares? Most of the time that's just someone dotting everybody, i do that sometimes on my Madness Assassin and i got most damage done (but was i effective? not really). I still win 90% of 1v1 fights in warzones, i just still escape focus fire and regroup. In solo Arena when when its 8 dps i even do the highest damage some games. I'm sure not even close to being very good, he marauder is just one of my alts i play on. But you really cant say the class is a paper doll just by your own experience only (witch may be caused because of lack of knowledge or skill with the class). I really cant wait for the 2.8 Patch, its going to be even more fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawginole Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 4v4 ranked arena earlier today. My juggernaught has all best in slot augmented pvp gear. I didnt have any defensive cd's. Me vs Marauder I have no cooldowns at all. its a toe-to-toe dogfight Marauder charges me 4 seconds pass Marauder kills me The end they do incredible burst damage. and they can survive a very long time with their cooldowns. Does my juggernaught need a buff since i died in 4 seconds in 1v1? Naw. i didnt have cooldowns. but still. thats WOW dmg. it happened. Just saying. Frankly i think this games entire structure is atrocious - from class structure to world layouts but whatevers i wont /debbiedowner. Just thought i'd share that fun play by play. In most cases 100% health vs 100% health a Sent should win a 1v1. The problem is that is almost never the case in a wz. If I'm fighting you and Sorc is spamming lighting on me no chance. If I'm fighting you and Merc is spamming missiles at me no chance. If I'm fighting you and sin/op pops out of stealth no chance. Etc and so forth. So yes, I agree with your 1v1 assessment, but once again 1v1 is rarely ever the case in a wz. And let's not go to the straw man that I'm saying we should survive 1v3 or 1v4. Of course not. But Sents are targeted and should be targeted as the first dps to focus in any situation after the healer or when a sorc heals goes into bubble shield. I know this because that's how we strat in ranked and it works. So when I'm on my Sent, why wouldn't they be saying the same..."Focus sent because they die quick." Obvious is obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord_Maliken Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The Marauder class is still on top of the food-chain, its just that they aren't 4x better then all the other classes anymore. lmao. yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scylence Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Have you ever played a DPS operative or an AP PT or a merc DPS or a madness Assassin? Then you know what low survivability feels like. It's just marauders not knowing how to use their CDs. ATM vengeance Juggs are the only ones with better overall survivability (not considering healers here). Did you just say AP PT and madness assassin have less survivability then Mara/sent? 1/10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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