Marauder Paper Doll

[VIZIOO]

Why would anyone play a Marauder in pvp? Bioware has turn them into paper dolls. Their attacks are like mosquito bites, and are vulnerable to all kinds of impair effects. Bioware should delete the class from the game in it entirely, and come up with a new class of Sith.

[NathanielStarr]

They are ahead of at least 2 classes in the game still if not 3. Sure they do not compare to Juggernauts, but what does?

[masih_ad_dajjal]

good maras still best melee dps output I'm pretty sure and still see them in group ranked.

 

don't base crap off 4v4 dps solo matches it's broke.

Edited May 29, 2014 by masih_ad_dajjal

[DerSchneider]

Use your advantages - maras in carnage still have the best burst in the game. Don't try to faceroll 4 people, it is guardian's work. In yolo queue be a nail in the *** - interrupt healers, root them and burst down in time. Also marauder is the most useful class for the group - for example, when you see everyone with full resolve - use inspiration, when everyone got pushed back - use transendence etc.

In 2.8 you will get your anni tree back, which is gonna be pretty viable.

Edited May 29, 2014 by DerSchneider

[NathanielStarr]

There are some extremely overpowered classes now. Marauders are not as strong as them is all and if you compare yourself to them you will be disappointed. The devs really screwed up with ED and the new PT pyro buff will be that all over again. They really do throw a sledgehammer at the smallest loose nail.

 

Juggernauts were an example of someone saying they were a little hard to tank with and doing poorly in ranked PvP so they get basically an extra life every 2 minutes. Now someone says that PT Pyro tech has low damage in PvE so they give more than a one third damage buff. That is the real problem. After we suffer through PTs being insanely OP in PvP they will knock it down to 15% or something. But how many months will it take?

[Cretinus]

... Now someone says that PT Pyro tech has low damage in PvE so they give more than a one third damage buff. That is the real problem. After we suffer through PTs being insanely OP in PvP they will knock it down to 15% or something. But how many months will it take?

 

It doesn't matter if it takes 1 week or 5 months. Cause the same moment they nerf PTs, they will buff some other class beyond OPness again. This has been their tactics to keep people rerolling since game release and I don't see it changing.

[masih_ad_dajjal]

It doesn't matter if it takes 1 week or 5 months. Cause the same moment they nerf PTs, they will buff some other class beyond OPness again. This has been their tactics to keep people rerolling since game release and I don't see it changing.

 

jugg been best for quite some time..yeah mara had a small lead in smash for 6 months but they still lacked the ability to guard/tank. which made them more/less situational.

Edited May 29, 2014 by masih_ad_dajjal

[discbox]

It doesn't matter if it takes 1 week or 5 months. Cause the same moment they nerf PTs, they will buff some other class beyond OPness again. This has been their tactics to keep people rerolling since game release and I don't see it changing.

 

We can't argue with that.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The term "paper doll" reminds me of the "rock, scissors, paper" principle ...

[kaimelion]

Marauders only have 5 defensive cds, one of the highest burst in game (carnage), highest cleave damage (smash) and soon very very high sustain (annihilation) paired with high group utility.

It's a L2P issue. Baddies gonna bad...

 

KTHXBYE

Edited May 29, 2014 by kaimelion

[Marxxis]

We also have a glass jaw that is arguably worse than a sages, but apparently, it's only second to DPS operatives (lie). Cloak of pain can be countered by just waiting out the six seconds. Undying rage is the same, or put us in a 6s mez. Saberward isn't that great, even Annihilation's improved Saberward will barely tip the scales. Force Camo we're pretty much forced to use immediately as soon as we're focused because we go down in about 3 seconds. So what happens when you manage to still not kill your target between all your CD? you die. then you respawn with your Defensive CD's on CD and your stun break is also on CD for another, idk 1m30s? Then you get blown up by an AP Vanguard within a 4s stun that you can't break out of. Or we're kited forever and forced to waste fury stacks on predation which put's us at normal movement speed or 30% extra movement speed. the minor damage reduction in the Carnage tree isn't enough to keep you alive through multiple AOES. Our only saving grace is carnage burst (boring spec), or Smash spec (brain dead monkey spec) and to kill them before they kill us, but Assassins and operatives even do that better, and manage to get away.

 

Come on dude, there is more wrong with us than just L2P. L2P is a throwaway answer when you have no real reasons to say WHY we're wrong.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Marxxis

[kaimelion]

We also have a glass jaw that is arguably worse than a sages, but apparently, it's only second to DPS operatives (lie). Cloak of pain can be countered by just waiting out the six seconds. Undying rage is the same, or put us in a 6s mez. Saberward isn't that great, even Annihilation's improved Saberward will barely tip the scales. Force Camo we're pretty much forced to use immediately as soon as we're focused because we go down in about 3 seconds. So what happens when you manage to still not kill your target between all your CD? you die. then you respawn with your Defensive CD's on CD and your stun break is also on CD for another, idk 1m30s? Then you get blown up by an AP Vanguard within a 4s stun that you can't break out of. Or we're kited forever and forced to waste fury stacks on predation which put's us at normal movement speed or 30% extra movement speed. the minor damage reduction in the Carnage tree isn't enough to keep you alive through multiple AOES. Our only saving grace is carnage burst (boring spec), or Smash spec (brain dead monkey spec) and to kill them before they kill us, but Assassins and operatives even do that better, and manage to get away.

 

Come on dude, there is more wrong with us than just L2P. L2P is a throwaway answer when you have no real reasons to say WHY we're wrong.

 

So you are saying, that Marauders need a buff, because if you are good enough you can outplay them? LOL

[scylence]

So you are saying, that Marauders need a buff, because if you are good enough you can outplay them? LOL

 

Nice word twisting.

 

In a nutshell, I think what he is saying is:

 

A. Other classes can do what mara/sent does, but better, as in even non pure DPS classes (other then group buff ofc).

 

and

 

B. Mara/sent is shut down by CC way more then any other class, the problem is not just mara/sent but the fact CC can be thrown around at a whim instead of tactically (and the resolve system doesnt help). Who cares if you can kill someone in 4s when the stars align and when you are NOT CCed/ the opponent doesnt use a DCD / Egress etc etc etc. If that 4s kill happens 5% of the time you engage a target you can't balance off stars align and beyond scenarios and it shows Mara/sent needs a fix in this regard

 

 

 

and you also can't let the trolls fool you, they try to derail mara/sent related, you know the ones that will claim they can 100-0 any class all the time in 3-4s, yet cannot provide video evidence.... even though its "all the time". best thing is to just put them on ignore and move on.

Edited May 29, 2014 by scylence

[cycao]

B. Mara/sent is shut down by CC way more then any other class, the problem is not just mara/sent but the fact CC can be thrown around at a whim instead of tactically (and the resolve system doesnt help). Who cares if you can kill someone in 4s when the stars align and when you are NOT CCed/ the opponent doesnt use a DCD / Egress etc etc etc. If that 4s kill happens 5% of the time you engage a target you can't balance off stars align and beyond scenarios and it shows Mara/sent needs a fix in this regard

 

This is what I simply don't agree on. For one, there is no way to actually prove this and two, all burst melee are highly subjective to CC. You should see an average game when I'm on my madness sin, I eat a ton of CC. When I'm on my merc or sorc the last thing I want to do is start casting in a melee classes face, I CC and kite which is why all melee are subjective to CC, it's not just marauders.

 

Also given that carnage's raw burst potential the last thing anyone wants is to eat a full ravage.

[MCaliban]

Use your advantages - maras in carnage still have the best burst in the game. Don't try to faceroll 4 people, it is guardian's work.

 

Many guardians believe they can do this while not being able to. There's nothing like someone slapping a guard on you and then leaping into the middle of a group only for you to frantically pour healing into them as they melt before your eyes.

[scylence]

This is what I simply don't agree on. For one, there is no way to actually prove this and two, all burst melee are highly subjective to CC. You should see an average game when I'm on my madness sin, I eat a ton of CC. When I'm on my merc or sorc the last thing I want to do is start casting in a melee classes face, I CC and kite which is why all melee are subjective to CC, it's not just marauders.

 

Also given that carnage's raw burst potential the last thing anyone wants is to eat a full ravage.

 

There is certainly a way to prove this.

Lets take Carnage/Combat for example. The highest portion of your damage is mostly done by Ravage in a gore window. While using Ravage the Mara/sent is susceptible to all CC, whilst the target is only rooted. The target can also break free from the root involving the many talents that do so, AND CC breaks/immunities in the game. Now take the amount of CC all classes have access too including other mara/sents. Also take in to account how low the cds on those CCs are, how many of them are AOE etc etc. Now you also have the broken resolve system.

I already thing having a stand still channel ability for a melee class is very backwards and stupid game design to begin with but that is a different topic all together.

 

So with the above, compare that to any other DPS spec. I will compare to some of the other ones I have

 

Pyro PT? I get stunned middle of my burst rotation, sure its a small set back, but It doesn't really stop my burst.

 

TK sage? I eat maras and juggs alive if they arent smash, and my burst requires me to be stationary for the majority.

 

Slinger? Same as TK sage but even more-so for most classes I face. You won't be spending much time in my face when im playing this. God forbid I setup shop in a place like on a pipe in quesh, now we are talking about wreaking havoc on your entire team with ease.

 

Sin? Sure it doesn't have anywhere near the pressure a Mara or Jugg, and somewhat less then a PT, the sin still has very easy to use burst rotations, and far less RNG then Mara/Sent. It also has a huge factor that most take for granted (and have trouble using correctly / thinking outside the box with) AKA STEALTH. Extremely powerful tool.

 

But ofc thats just talk, and you'd come to the same conclusion comparing the classes on paper as well.

Playing is where the proof is. Even watching the so called "top" mara/Sent streams that don't play smash....

Every single time I watch them in ranked..... I see them being carried. It is obvious to me at least.

 

 

Also just so people are aware.... cuz I see it a lot... trying to use "Mara/sent is just a harder class to play" or something along those lines as a part of your argument that there is no changes needed is BY DEFINITION a logical fallacy, whether I agree with it or not.

Edited May 29, 2014 by scylence

[kaimelion]

We also have a glass jaw that is arguably worse than a sages, but apparently, it's only second to DPS operatives (lie). Cloak of pain can be countered by just waiting out the six seconds. Undying rage is the same, or put us in a 6s mez. Saberward isn't that great, even Annihilation's improved Saberward will barely tip the scales. Force Camo we're pretty much forced to use immediately as soon as we're focused because we go down in about 3 seconds. So what happens when you manage to still not kill your target between all your CD? you die. then you respawn with your Defensive CD's on CD and your stun break is also on CD for another, idk 1m30s? Then you get blown up by an AP Vanguard within a 4s stun that you can't break out of. Or we're kited forever and forced to waste fury stacks on predation which put's us at normal movement speed or 30% extra movement speed. the minor damage reduction in the Carnage tree isn't enough to keep you alive through multiple AOES. Our only saving grace is carnage burst (boring spec), or Smash spec (brain dead monkey spec) and to kill them before they kill us, but Assassins and operatives even do that better, and manage to get away.

 

Come on dude, there is more wrong with us than just L2P. L2P is a throwaway answer when you have no real reasons to say WHY we're wrong.

 

Okay let me try again:

Cloak of pain: can be countered with long ccs. How often does is happen, that you are standing in a cc that long? And even if you are it's just poor cd management, as you could have waited, until the other guy blew all his ccs. Then again other classes CDs can be countered by ccing them while they are up. The only difference is that if you are doted for example your CoP will run for 30s. Pretty nice, if you ask me.

Undying Rage: What do you want? A godmode CD, that cant be countered?

Saberward: is awesome. One of the most powerfull cds in the game.

Force Camo: has like a 1min cd? can break roots. Can be used defensively and offensively at the same time and reduces damage taken by 50%. Every other class would be *********** happy to have smth like that.

Obfuscate: powerfull cd and if used right you can **** up alot of people's rotatios

If you are getting kited, you are doing it wrong. Every spec has a ******** of roots and slows.

 

Is this enough to showcase that it's a L2P issue?

[scylence]

Okay let me try again:

Cloak of pain: can be countered with long ccs. How often does is happen, that you are standing in a cc that long? And even if you are it's just poor cd management, as you could have waited, until the other guy blew all his ccs. Then again other classes CDs can be countered by ccing them while they are up. The only difference is that if you are doted for example your CoP will run for 30s. Pretty nice, if you ask me.

Undying Rage: What do you want? A godmode CD, that cant be countered?

Saberward: is awesome. One of the most powerfull cds in the game.

Force Camo: has like a 1min cd? can break roots. Can be used defensively and offensively at the same time and reduces damage taken by 50%. Every other class would be *********** happy to have smth like that.

Obfuscate: powerfull cd and if used right you can **** up alot of people's rotatios

If you are getting kited, you are doing it wrong. Every spec has a ******** of roots and slows.

 

Is this enough to showcase that it's a L2P issue?

 

An issue for you, yes.

 

Propping DCDs up on a pedestal and describing the effects in your own words = not a valid part of an argument.

 

Claiming that a class should have to wait and twiddle their thumbs until everybody blows their plethora of CCs before they can actually contribute, or rather claiming any class is designed or should be designed that way is laughable at best.

[Marxxis]

Okay let me try again:

Cloak of pain: can be countered with long ccs. How often does is happen, that you are standing in a cc that long? And even if you are it's just poor cd management, as you could have waited, until the other guy blew all his ccs. Then again other classes CDs can be countered by ccing them while they are up. The only difference is that if you are doted for example your CoP will run for 30s. Pretty nice, if you ask me.

Undying Rage: What do you want? A godmode CD, that cant be countered?

Saberward: is awesome. One of the most powerfull cds in the game.

Force Camo: has like a 1min cd? can break roots. Can be used defensively and offensively at the same time and reduces damage taken by 50%. Every other class would be *********** happy to have smth like that.

Obfuscate: powerfull cd and if used right you can **** up alot of people's rotatios

If you are getting kited, you are doing it wrong. Every spec has a ******** of roots and slows.

 

Is this enough to showcase that it's a L2P issue?

 

No it's not. Obsfuscate only works on melee/ranged accuracy.

No one is dumb enough to use a CC on cloak of pain, you dunce. I said wait it out, which is easily done by kiting, although a point is in your favor concerning dots

Undying rage was better before they changed it. Saberward can only absorb so much damage, and even then I can still get blown up.

Force Camo is a 45s Cooldown that is a lesser vanish with a 50% damage reduction. Great if you have dots on you, or an ability with a delay (sticky grenades). It'll almost never be up because you'll be the first to go down if you even think about trying to skirt around to their backline. I'm mostly stuck defending in Alderaan/Novare because almost nobody wants that job. And 1v1 isn't balanced so I get massacred by the current popular specs, and even some weird hybrid that operatives and Assassins are running now.

 

So no, you still haven't given any reason for a L2p

[kaimelion]

No it's not. Obsfuscate only works on melee/ranged accuracy.

No one is dumb enough to use a CC on cloak of pain, you dunce. I said wait it out, which is easily done by kiting, although a point is in your favor concerning dots

Undying rage was better before they changed it. Saberward can only absorb so much damage, and even then I can still get blown up.

Force Camo is a 45s Cooldown that is a lesser vanish with a 50% damage reduction. Great if you have dots on you, or an ability with a delay (sticky grenades). It'll almost never be up because you'll be the first to go down if you even think about trying to skirt around to their backline. I'm mostly stuck defending in Alderaan/Novare because almost nobody wants that job. And 1v1 isn't balanced so I get massacred by the current popular specs, and even some weird hybrid that operatives and Assassins are running now.

 

So no, you still haven't given any reason for a L2p

 

The fact that you struggle and tell me, that you are getting outplayed and want tools to not get outplayed is enough to make it look like a L2P issue.

[DarthOvertone]

Why would anyone play a Marauder in pvp?

 

Because it's fun.

 

 

Mara/sent is shut down by CC way more then any other class, the problem is not just mara/sent but the fact CC can be thrown around at a whim instead of tactically (and the resolve system doesnt help).

 

This is the only thing I don't like about playing Mara. After maining a VG and Sniper, returning to my Mara is like fighting in sludge. I really feel the CC in this game on my Marauder more than any other class, even other melee. Thank the maker for Pred.

 

 

Don't try to faceroll 4 people, it is guardian's work.

 

This made me LOL in RL

[scylence]

The fact that you struggle and tell me, that you are getting outplayed and want tools to not get outplayed is enough to make it look like a L2P issue.

 

lol.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

[Vodrin]

Nice word twisting.

 

In a nutshell, I think what he is saying is:

 

A. Other classes can do what mara/sent does, but better, as in even non pure DPS classes (other then group buff ofc).

 

and

 

B. Mara/sent is shut down by CC way more then any other class, the problem is not just mara/sent but the fact CC can be thrown around at a whim instead of tactically (and the resolve system doesnt help). Who cares if you can kill someone in 4s when the stars align and when you are NOT CCed/ the opponent doesnt use a DCD / Egress etc etc etc. If that 4s kill happens 5% of the time you engage a target you can't balance off stars align and beyond scenarios and it shows Mara/sent needs a fix in this regard

 

 

 

and you also can't let the trolls fool you, they try to derail mara/sent related, you know the ones that will claim they can 100-0 any class all the time in 3-4s, yet cannot provide video evidence.... even though its "all the time". best thing is to just put them on ignore and move on.

 

That may be what he is saying, but he is wrong so.....

[kaimelion]

lol.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

 

Touché

[scylence]

That may be what he is saying, but he is wrong so.....

 

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/making_argument/argument_elements.htm

 

You are welcome