Sage Top 3 Questions - Answered

[fire-breath]

Hahahahahahahaha

 

Let me get this right, DPS Sorcs/Sages have two (2) defensive CDs. One that they can't use in Operations because it breaks mechanics and drops agro, and one they shouldn't use because they're not meant to and because Heal Sorc/Sages have a better version of it.

 

DEVs you are ******, just straight up ******. Heal to full all over again. Gonna ditch Static Barrier out of my bars and run HM DF/DP; who do I send the repair bill for my numerous deaths to?

 

SOLUTION:

Force Armor/Static Barrier - is a healer ability learnt in their tree

New Shield ability akin to Shield Probe - Given to all Sorcs/Sages upon reaching whatever level it was when you got Force Armor/Static Barrier, has a CD, doesn't use up the GCD, uses minimal force.

 

Done.

 

Next thing we'll be told DPS shouldn't be using their cleanses during fights because its the healers job. Hahahahaha.

 

DEVs just stop being ******.

 

Ehm .... what the blieb are babbling about? ...You are making zero sense .... The only occasion I would classify as life threatening is Czero and even there with proper tanks/healers you will be safe.

In my group the sage rarely dies in that fight because most often after the taunt my saboteur gunslinger and her sage would share aggro on adds.

Your example of DF/DP is really nice and fitting where your sorc healer should use force armor on the persons who get the most droid aggro. Since your own force armor is less good I would prefer the healers one at any time.

 

One fyi ..... there are multiple vids around of healers who are solo healing either HM or NiMs. The last one I saw was a sagehealer on my server who solohealed Czero from 74%. If you die, shame on your healers mate .....

 

CD 1 - Rescue teammates (I assume you meant this one). They didn't say a thing about not using this. You can't compare this 1 on 1 with force armor. Fyi, it doesn't break mechanics if you use it correctly. Sage rescue in Draxus NiM for example is very nice. Not to mention rescuing pugs to their appropiate spot

 

CD 2 - force armor. You can not deny the logic behind the devs words. Regardless how useful it is to armor yourself a healers force armor will always have a the potential to be better. Thats why they said you should avoid using it. If really needed I'm sure any dev playing a sage would force armor himself. If the healer has the time and force the healer should do it.

 

You seem to have missed some dcds

CD 3 - Force ment

CD 4 - TK interrupts (on adds without a immume its very nice since it acts like a short interrupt a la flashbang (RIP gunslingers fbangs )

CD 5 - Bubble stunning adds (again situational and an exception on the not use FA yourself rule)

CD 6 - Force wave (only if you are 100% sure you won't knock m out of AoE)

CD 7 - benevolence/deliverance in lulls of the fight with nothing to dps on

[MusicRider]

Hey folks!

 

Below you will find the answers to the top 3 Sage questions which were submitted earlier in this forum. Thank you all for your patience as we worked on getting them answered!

 

-eric

Nice, thanks.

 

PvE - Survivability

 

 

The developers stated in the Sorcerer answers that healing is intended to make up a significant part of Sage survivability and the suggestion of providing defensive cooldowns besides Force Mend and Force Barrier were rejected outright. The community believes that Sage survivability suffers from a number of inherent problems with its defensive tools.

 

In order to use Force Armor or Force Mend on yourself, you need to use a global cooldown. And in the case of Force Armor use 5%-10% of your resources. That's simply an unacceptable trade off in most PvE situations. For example in Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where an operation member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire operation. In many of these cases, Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is first mitigated by armor and passive damage resistance and Sages have the least access to those options.

 

Most recently in the final fight of Dread Fortress has a very high DPS check with significant damage coming from the boss (both AOE and randomly targeted). Sages need to spend GCDs and resources rather than doing damage and that increases the chance of a defeat. Athough Sages are still able to clear the content, the community is concerned that their lower survivability makes them less suitable for progression content.

 

These issues have caused many in the community to speculate that Sages are intended to be a "glass cannon," frail but able to pack a punch. Sages, however, don't have the inverse advantage in damage to survival that one would expect if that was the case. Many spirited discussions have issued debating this question of the theory of Sage survivability and we invite the developers to take part.

 

 

Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability, specifically in PvE operations? What is your philosophy towards the Sage class and its defenses? Are there any plans to improve the class's current survival tools? For example, by perhaps providing a means with which to move our tools (Force Armor, Force Mend, etc.) off the GCD when cast on yourself?

 

We are mostly satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in Operations. If you are a Sage/Sorcerer that specializes in dealing damage, we do not expect you to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself or others in an Operation. If you find this to not be the case in any given encounter, please feel free to post in the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum, and let the Operations team know specifically which mechanic in which encounter is making you feel like you are required to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself to survive. Also, please note that depending on how you and your healer specialize (if your group has a Sage/Sorcerer healer), your own Force Armor/Static Barrier is likely weaker and more expensive than your Sage/ Sorcerer healer’s Force Armor/Static Barrier. In addition, using your own Force Armor/Static Barrier will lockout your Sage/Sorcerer healer’s stronger and cheaper version of the ability.

 

Usually, damage dealt to the whole Operation group or to random Operation group members is dealt as elemental or internal damage, so that the classes with higher armor values do not have an advantage over classes with lower armor values, like the Sage/Sorcerer. Sometimes, the Operations team will intentionally decide to not make this damage elemental or internal (as is currently the case in the Dread Master Brontes encounter). If you feel that such practices leave the Sage/Sorcerer in a position that is too vulnerable, then please let us know in the Operations forum (linked above) so that we can address the issue.

This is one very strange answer and it opens a number of further questions. So if force armor is not to be used as a dps, then we can assume that the same applies for benevolence and deliverance. Which basically leaves sages with 2 dcds, these being force mend and force barrier. So,

a) survivability of the sages with these 2 dcds is satisfying and at the same level as all the other classes with (more than two for certain) dcds?

b) if armor+healing abilities are not intended to be used WHAT UTILITY does a dps sage bring in a raid group?

 

 

Now with that said, we will definitely consider taking the global cooldown off of Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation, but the global cooldown on Force Armor/Static Barrier is there to stay, since it can be placed on others and we do not expect you to use the ability in Operations if you are a damage dealer.

Glad to hear.

 

 

PvP - Seer Spec Issues

 

 

Currently, Sage healers have a number of issues that affect their play. First, Sages are nearly 100% reliant on casted healing abilities. Our only instant healing abilities are Force Armor and Rejuvenate. Force Armor has a long lockout and Rejuvenate is a small heal mostly used to proc Conveyance. Salvation can be cast instantly, but it requires using Healing Trance (and usually Rejuvenate) as a set-up.

 

In PvP, this causes great issues, because while Sage healers are capable of putting up great numbers because of Salvation spamming, under heavy pressure a static AoE heal is not ideal in the frenetic PvP environment.

 

The Noble Sacrifice/Consumption mechanic is really unique, and the community agrees that in PvE at least it provides Seer/Corruption with a sensible mechanic for restoring Force. In PvP, this mechanic presents very serious problems. Sage healers are one of the priority targets for being focused and in that situation purposefully sacrificing your health to maintain force is not possible. This is exacerbated by the issue of Sage healers being reliant on casts. This puts the Sage in the unenviable situation of having to stay still to restore health and Force.

 

Also, while Benevolence has its uses in emergency situations and off healing as a DPS, for Seer Sages this ability is very underwhelming and rarely used. In your 2.0 blog you mentioned that the ability is to be used when Force efficiency is not a concern. Unfortunately, in most emergencies efficiency is a concern as wasteful rotations will only lead to a prolonged emergency.

 

 

Are the developers considering any changes to Seer spec to reduce the heavy reliance on casted abilities or to improve force management in a way that is not detrimental to survival? For example, improving Rejuvenate, reducing the lockout duration of Force Armor, or removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice via set bonuses?

 

Sage/Sorcerer healers, we hear you and we see that our data validates what you are saying – as it shows you are currently performing behind both Scoundrel/Operative healers and Commando/Mercenary healers in PvP. We do not currently have any plans to share with you on how we intend to improve Sage/Sorcerer healing in PvP, but it is a priority for us, and we would love to hear your own ideas on how you would like Sage/Sorcerer healing to be improved in PvP without also making Sage/Sorcerer healing too good in PvE. We will say in advance that, “make such-and-such ability activate instantly,” is not a solution we are likely to consider (unless it is a temporary buff triggered by something else, and not a permanent reduction of activation time). Our goal is to keep Sage/Sorcerer healing as close as possible to the way it is in PvE, while improving how it performs in PvP.

Even gladier to hear.

 

Now here are some questions for the Sage/Sorcerer community, regarding Noble Sacrifice/Consumption. Do you believe removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice/Consumption as a PvP set bonus would be something that PvE Sage/Sorcerer healers also feel like they need, or are PvE Sage/Sorcerers happier with their current set bonuses? If it is something that PvE Sages/Sorcerers would rather have as well, then which current PvE set bonus would you want to give up for it? Do you think that having a health-cost-free Noble Sacrifice/Consumption would be too good for PvE? Do you believe it might take away too much of the challenge for healing in PvE situations?

 

Please let us know your thoughts about these issues in your replies to this post. We will be listening, and we appreciate your feedback.

HP spent from NS/C should be nullified only for pvp IMO with no access to pve. It should go to the 4pc set-bonus.

 

 

Sage as Jedi

 

 

While the majority of these class representative questions, both Sages and other classes, have been about balance issues, the Sage community has a unique concern shared in some respects with our mirror class, the Sorcerer but in some ways unique to the Sage class. Put bluntly, the class has some visual and mechanical issues that make it feel more like a traditional mage class instead of a Jedi. There are two main reasons for this: (1) We don’t use our lightsaber for anything; (2) Several animations lack the feeling of power. Discussing those in turn.

 

Sages and Sorcerers are force using classes and as such have the lightsaber as a weapon proficiency. In addition, our force free attack Saber Strike is a melee attack. The game mechanics, however, go out of their way to ensure that players have no incentive to use their lightsaber for any reason. Sages have only two weapon attacks and those attacks do not benefit from our main stat Willpower. This results in the unique situation of Sages (and Sorcerers) being the only class that does not use their main weapon for anything save a stat boost. This is directly LORE breaking as even the archetypal Sage and Sorcerer, Yoda and Palpatine were gifted melee combatants.

 

The second issue is with respect to certain animations of the Sage specifically. With the understanding that to mirror the consular and inquisitor classes, certain design choices had to be made, nevertheless many members of the Sage community question the appropriateness of two signature moves of the consular, Project and Telekinetic Throw. It is questionable whether Jedi should be using the force in this manner from a LORE perspective. Yoda tells us, “A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never to attack.” And the only force users in the movies to use telekinesis to throw items as an attack are the Sith: Darth Vader (in Ep.V), Darth Tyranus (in Ep. 2 & 3) and Darth Sidious (In Ep.3) Also, some players simply consider TK Throw particularly to be a lackluster animation that lacks the coolness factor of lightning on the Sith side – and nowhere in six movies or a host of licensed games, has debris throwing been a signature jedi move. For more information see http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718365

 

 

Will the developer do anything to ameliorate these issues? Examples include allowing Willpower to affect melee attacks; providing additional worthwhile lightsaber attacks; and offering alternate animations via the Cartel Market or otherwise (Marketing take note!).

 

We could rather easily make Willpower affect melee attacks for Sages/Sorcerers, but we have no intention to make Sages/Sorcerers use their lightsabers more than they currently do. In terms of lore, the particular attributes that make someone a “Jedi Sage” or a “Sith Sorcerer” vary over the vast timeline of the Star Wars galaxy. And while Yoda and Palpatine were definitely inspirations for these classes, they are never identified by those terms in the films, and it wasn’t our intention to make direct gameplay clones of those characters in any case. Our feeling was that there are many players who want the experience of playing as a Jedi/Sith who relies almost solely on their mastery of the Force to resolve the challenges they face, with the lightsaber serving only as a secondary weapon; these classes were designed with that experience in mind.

 

As far as offering alternate animations and visual effects via the Cartel Market is concerned, only time will tell. Your message has been passed onto the team responsible for Cartel Market updates, and if it is possible, then you might see those options appear in the future.

 

 

A bit dissapointed with this answer. It's not the aim to make sages a melee class but rather to make them look like jedis/siths given how much of a trademark the lightsaber is. There could be a ranged saber attack like guardians and sentinels have.... it is absurd that "less specialised" force users are able to control their saber in a throw but not the "masters of the force". Oh well, can't see common ground here between the class designers and the community.

[Gyronamics]

Also i feel like in arenas, i'm always either stunned or at full resolve, so in my opinion we would need either

 

1) damage reduction while stunned

2) stun immunity cooldown / proc

3) cooldown useable while stunned

This is probably going too far. They should rather provide us with the tools to avoid some of that getting stunned or enable a decent performance afterwards.

 

Helpful would be DCD off GCD like all the others classes.

Give back 360° Knockback as they are unable to to fix those positioning problems / server lags which cause our knockbacks to miss. Plus all the other range classes got 360°knockbacks ... there is a reason why.

Give back instant mezz as a way to avoid/delay some of those enemy stuns or to improve the chance of getting away afterwards.

 

1) Already a talent

2) Already a baseline ability which ironically self incapacitates but this is fully under your own control also leaves you immune to damage

3) Already in the game and is the same ability as #2

 

Yes, it's called the knockback not being baseline for the class and therefore not sharing it with the melee branch.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Gyronamics

[Master-Nala]

Hello, bringing words from Hakkology since he QUIT the game and went F2P so he can't post.

!

 

Hakkology needs to lighten up.

[Gyronamics]

This is one very strange answer and it opens a number of further questions. So if force armor is not to be used as a dps, then we can assume that the same applies for benevolence and deliverance. Which basically leaves sages with 2 dcds, these being force mend and force barrier. So,

a) survivability of the sages with these 2 dcds is satisfying and at the same level as all the other classes with (more than two for certain) dcds?

b) if armor+healing abilities are not intended to be used WHAT UTILITY does a dps sage bring in a raid group?

 

 

Compare Sage to Commando and Gunslinger.

 

Commando:

Reactive Shield (25% less dmg, 12s, 2m CD),

Adrenaline Rush is a last ditch DCD, requiring you to almost die and then not get finished off. (8s of healing up to 35%, 3m CD)

 

Gunslinger is often banned from using their Scrambling Field as a personal DCD, typically it's controlled by the raid leader in serious content so personal CD are:

Dodge: 0 ranged/melee damage for 3s, (1m CD)

Defensive Shield: mini force armour (20s CD)

Ballistic Dampers is a talent but since it's tier 1 it's typically taken: 30% less damage from next 3 hits in cover (6s CD)

 

Sage as you say:

Force Mend: chunky heal (30s CD)

Force Barrier: immunity for 10s(?) followed by about 75% of your health in a damage absorbing buff for 5s(?) (3m CD)

 

Doesn't immediately look like Sages have a bad deal for Operations.

 

Commando got some pretty bad news though, passive buff of heavy armour is intended to be bypassed by specific mechanics to ensure they do take as much damage from it as a sage and their two DCD have long CD.

 

Sage:

Pull -> total aggro dump on target and rescue/hilarious fail mechanic to save/kill an ally.

Force Armour - a heath buff you can put on an ally before a hit if no sage healer is available.

Combat Res

 

Gunslinger:

Scrambling Fields raid protection which I excluded from personal DCD

Armour debuff with healing debuff attached

Accuracy debuff (sharpshooter) -> can be used on powerful adds but not the boss

Immunity during roll, can remove self destructive damaging mechanics such as circles vs Dread Guard without anyone taking damage

 

Commando:

Armour debuff (gunnery)

Combat Res

Edited May 29, 2014 by Gyronamics

[Master-Nala]

Quitting the game makes him stuck up?

 

Lighten up means he needs to not take an issue so seriously. I'll say the same to you, it's just a game. Not sure how you read me calling anyone 'stuck up.'

 

Then again, he had mentioned you were an .....

 

You are not worth it.

 

I don't even know who you or Hakkology are. If you have so little control of your emotions that you feel the need to insult me then all I can do is give you my pity.

 

I'm beginning to doubt if this entire playerbase is worth it.

 

It's a game, if you aren't having fun, try something else.

 

PvPers left with 1.2. Raiders left with Wildstar. RPers left with 2.0.

 

And I'm left alone with whatever that is left.

 

**** this ****. I'm done.

 

OK, honestly with this rant, that's for the best.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Master-Nala

[alexsamma]

Removing the health cost from Noble Sacrifice is a good start, but something needs to be done about the lost GCDs associate with using the ability as well; with the current level of lolburst dps in pvp combined with how easy it is to interrupt (hard interrupt, leap/pull/knockback, 30 meter focus target interrupt) you no longer have the spare GCDs to waste on noble sacrifice/consumption in pvp.

 

Deliverence needs to be returned to pre 1.2 cast times with the rejuv. proc, or have it's baseline cast time greatly reduced.

 

Our AOE needs to be reworked, even if our AOE heals for more than the other two healers it has too many drawbacks in pvp (cast time, static hot, cost); without the cast time reduction from force surge it's very challenging to land our AOE heal against solid opponents (too many interrupt and CC's, can be worked around in 8vs8's with good positioning but not possible in arena) and when we do they can simply aoe on top of the puddle or move the fight out of the puddle.

 

Right now sage healing in pvp is pretty much based around healing trance and bubble, using any other skill is going to cause you to run into force issues very fast, let's do a quick look at our other heals:

 

Salvation - Strong AOE, but hard to pull off without wasting force surge charges, too costly to use without rejuv. proc which we ideally want to use on healing trance.

Rejuvenation - Not useful as a heal, mainly used to obtain a proc or for mobile healing

Benevolence - Fast cast heal, low healing output, high cost, only (somewhat) useful with the rejuv. proc that we need to save for both Salvation and healing trance.

Deliverance - Have you actually played pvp lately???? 2.6 seconds is an eternity in pvp.

 

Out of time, but other things to consider:

 

Only healing AC that cannot use our mezz instantly (mandos can use a proc)

Our cleanse is almost useless, we can only cleanse two mezzes (awe and force lift/whirlwind), awe can be cleansed by all healers - let's not even talk about dots at this point...

Utility - rescue is awesome in 8vs8, but it falls on it's face in arena; e-net and group stealth can be game changers when used properly.

Force Armor has not scaled well, 5-6k is 1/6 of someone's health pool, and most dps classes can take this down with one ability - for such an important/integral part of our healing toolkit this ability has not scaled well,

[TACeMossie]

Compare Sage to Commando and Gunslinger.

 

Commando:

Reactive Shield (25% less dmg, 12s, 2m CD),

Adrenaline Rush is a last ditch DCD, requiring you to almost die and then not get finished off. (8s of healing up to 35%, 3m CD)

 

Gunslinger is often banned from using their Scrambling Field as a personal DCD, typically it's controlled by the raid leader in serious content so personal CD are:

Dodge: 0 ranged/melee damage for 3s, (1m CD)

Defensive Shield: mini force armour (20s CD)

Ballistic Dampers is a talent but since it's tier 1 it's typically taken: 30% less damage from next 3 hits in cover (6s CD)

 

Sage as you say:

Force Mend: chunky heal (30s CD)

Force Barrier: immunity for 10s(?) followed by about 75% of your health in a damage absorbing buff for 5s(?) (3m CD)

 

Doesn't immediately look like Sages have a bad deal for Operations.

 

Commando got some pretty bad news though, passive buff of heavy armour is intended to be bypassed by specific mechanics to ensure they do take as much damage from it as a sage and their two DCD have long CD.

 

Sage:

Pull -> total aggro dump on target and rescue/hilarious fail mechanic to save/kill an ally.

Force Armour - a heath buff you can put on an ally before a hit if no sage healer is available.

Combat Res

 

Gunslinger:

Scrambling Fields raid protection which I excluded from personal DCD

Armour debuff with healing debuff attached

Accuracy debuff (sharpshooter) -> can be used on powerful adds but not the boss

Immunity during roll, can remove self destructive damaging mechanics such as circles vs Dread Guard without anyone taking damage

 

Commando:

Armour debuff (gunnery)

Combat Res

 

On commandos:

To be fair, all their DPS specs can also spec into (and usually do) turning Diversion into a DCD - either a 25% defense/resist chance for 6 seconds from Assault, or a 100% resist chance on the next force/tech attack from Gunnery

 

But anyway, its obvious there should be 3 DCDs for each RDPS minimum:

Damage Reduction (Balistic Dampeners, Reactive Shield, ???)

Resist/Defense boost (Dodge, Diversion-talented, ???)

Emergency (???, Adrenaline Rush, Force Barrier)

 

Now it is true I didnt include defense screen/force armor/force mend, however as these abilities do not scale with incoming damage like the above do, they are significantly worse for NiM Ops + PvP

[Joronas]

A few specific things:

 

While Seers will typically spec in and get the bubble-boost ability from telekinetics, it is by no means a certainty -- and by no means certain that even if that is a priority, that the seer will have enough points available to max out a 2-point power on the 2nd level of a DPS tree.

 

Beyond that, you seem to be indicating that DPS sages have only one defensive ability, Force Barrier, which completely blocks all offensive abilities -- which would indicate that its main PVE use is "I am about to get dropped on by an airborn Kephess or barbequed by titan-6" -- predictable spike damage. A very powerful ability, but one that completely ignores the situations I see the most (non-tank) defensive cooldown use.... hitting the enrage timer of a boss in progression and high-frequency aggro-dumps by the boss (which leads to tanks NOT having taunts available -- or being unable for other reasons to use an AOE taunt). If Force Armour is supposed to be a healer-thing, then that leaves DPS sages typically dead, while the other ACs start popping cooldowns and (hopefully) giving the healers enough time to save them.

 

PVE sages would be thrilled to death to have a 4-piece set bonus as powerful as noble sacrifice without a health cost. Of course, most of us would expect to lose it approximately a week later. If it was tied to Resplendence, then it might avoid being game-breaking, but it would be extremely powerful nonetheless. Of course, that would be very similar to an earlier style Sage .. except we'd have up to 3 free noble sacrifices instead of 1.

[CommanderKeeva]

I only have one question about this, which I'm sure was asked already somewhere.

 

 

We are mostly satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in Operations. If you are a Sage/Sorcerer that specializes in dealing damage, we do not expect you to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself or others in an Operation.

 

If this is the case, then what is the Telekinetic Defense talent doing in the Telekinetics tree?

 

If we're not supposed to be using Force Armor as a DPS at all, shouldn't it be moved to the Seer tree? Swap it with Pain Bearer maybe, so that DPS can have access to a passive healing bonus?

[MidichIorian]

OK, then can you get rid of the sabers entirely? It's really, really stupid to have them pulled out for absolutely no reason and makes the animations look ridiculous.

This is the main reason to why I use the CM "wand" on my PvE set and think a staff of DB saber would have been a better option for sages. It would look significally better than a single light saber.

[Gyronamics]

On commandos:

To be fair, all their DPS specs can also spec into (and usually do) turning Diversion into a DCD - either a 25% defense/resist chance for 6 seconds from Assault, or a 100% resist chance on the next force/tech attack from Gunnery

 

The Gunnery one is useful, it can be timed to soak one direct (not aoe) tech/force hit.

 

The Assault one is so far from being tactically useful it's shocking. A 25% bonus to dodge any form of hit for 6s might as well be a coin toss. Imagine resilience being only 25% chance vs tech/force, would anyone chance it in a NiM op? Hell no. The defensive talents in Assault are junk for raiding and irritating when not junk. Which probably still means junk...

 

Dodge for Gunslingers is how it ought to be, a guarantee that you can bet your life and by extension the raid success on. 3s of no melee or ranged damage, now that you can use.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Gyronamics

[Mallo]

Hey folks!

 

]Sage/Sorcerer healers, we hear you and we see that our data validates what you are saying – as it shows you are currently performing behind both Scoundrel/Operative healers and Commando/Mercenary healers in PvP. We do not currently have any plans to share with you on how we intend to improve Sage/Sorcerer healing in PvP, but it is a priority for us, and we would love to hear your own ideas on how you would like Sage/Sorcerer healing to be improved in PvP without also making Sage/Sorcerer healing too good in PvE. We will say in advance that, “make such-and-such ability activate instantly,” is not a solution we are likely to consider (unless it is a temporary buff triggered by something else, and not a permanent reduction of activation time). Our goal is to keep Sage/Sorcerer healing as close as possible to the way it is in PvE, while improving how it performs in PvP.

 

Now here are some questions for the Sage/Sorcerer community, regarding Noble Sacrifice/Consumption. Do you believe removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice/Consumption as a PvP set bonus would be something that PvE Sage/Sorcerer healers also feel like they need, or are PvE Sage/Sorcerers happier with their current set bonuses? If it is something that PvE Sages/Sorcerers would rather have as well, then which current PvE set bonus would you want to give up for it? Do you think that having a health-cost-free Noble Sacrifice/Consumption would be too good for PvE? Do you believe it might take away too much of the challenge for healing in PvE situations?

 

Please let us know your thoughts about these issues in your replies to this post. We will be listening, and we appreciate your feedback.

 

[/color]

 

On the one hand you tell DPS Sorcs they're not expected to bubble themselves. Their healer brethern will do it for them.

 

Then you tell the healer damage yourself to have the force to bubble everyone.

 

When you ask what would we give up to get rid of the damage from Consumption? I'd swap the 4 piece set bonus (50 force) for the Zero damage on Consumption.

 

Or if we don't want to get rid of the damage straight up move it to the debuff. This would work for both PvP and PvE. Then if you mange your Consumption to where you don't get the debuff you avoid the damage. But if you simply burn off force and Consume back you will take the damage and possibly more as you will have the debuff stacking and resetting.

This makes it so healers who are planning / thinking can keep force up without becoming a bigger part of the healing burden. While still leaving a penalty in place for being sloppy.

 

I would take that as a straight change or as again a 4 piece set bonus either would be fine.

 

Oh and if you just put this on PvP gear only I would consider running PvE content in PvP gear making consumption Free is very much game changing for Sorc healers.

 

Mallo

[MisterBlackJack]

THIS! Yes yes yes.

 

The only issue I have with this being cartel items is the chance of these cartel animations working better number wise than current in game animations which is a slippery slope to p2w

Edited May 29, 2014 by MisterBlackJack

[Terrulin]

We are mostly satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in Operations. If you are a Sage/Sorcerer that specializes in dealing damage, we do not expect you to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself or others in an Operation. If you find this to not be the case in any given encounter, please feel free to post in the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum, and let the Operations team know specifically which mechanic in which encounter is making you feel like you are required to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself to survive. Also, please note that depending on how you and your healer specialize (if your group has a Sage/Sorcerer healer), your own Force Armor/Static Barrier is likely weaker and more expensive than your Sage/ Sorcerer healer’s Force Armor/Static Barrier. In addition, using your own Force Armor/Static Barrier will lockout your Sage/Sorcerer healer’s stronger and cheaper version of the ability.

 

Usually, damage dealt to the whole Operation group or to random Operation group members is dealt as elemental or internal damage, so that the classes with higher armor values do not have an advantage over classes with lower armor values, like the Sage/Sorcerer. Sometimes, the Operations team will intentionally decide to not make this damage elemental or internal (as is currently the case in the Dread Master Brontes encounter). If you feel that such practices leave the Sage/Sorcerer in a position that is too vulnerable, then please let us know in the Operations forum (linked above) so that we can address the issue.

 

Now with that said, we will definitely consider taking the global cooldown off of Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation, but the global cooldown on Force Armor/Static Barrier is there to stay, since it can be placed on others and we do not expect you to use the ability in Operations if you are a damage dealer.

 

Disappointed that Bioware doesnt understand how their own game mechanics work. Basically you are saying if you want to have a sage DPS, you better have a sage healer with them to be their defensive cool down. Other classes have something so that they can survive a hit at less than 100%. Sages only have barrier, and a GCD using reactive Force Mend which doesnt help if you are dead. Make force armor cheaper and off the GCD when used on your self on the tier under turbulence/sever force.

 

Sage/Sorcerer healers, we hear you and we see that our data validates what you are saying – as it shows you are currently performing behind both Scoundrel/Operative healers and Commando/Mercenary healers in PvP. We do not currently have any plans to share with you on how we intend to improve Sage/Sorcerer healing in PvP, but it is a priority for us, and we would love to hear your own ideas on how you would like Sage/Sorcerer healing to be improved in PvP without also making Sage/Sorcerer healing too good in PvE. We will say in advance that, “make such-and-such ability activate instantly,” is not a solution we are likely to consider (unless it is a temporary buff triggered by something else, and not a permanent reduction of activation time). Our goal is to keep Sage/Sorcerer healing as close as possible to the way it is in PvE, while improving how it performs in PvP.

 

Now here are some questions for the Sage/Sorcerer community, regarding Noble Sacrifice/Consumption. Do you believe removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice/Consumption as a PvP set bonus would be something that PvE Sage/Sorcerer healers also feel like they need, or are PvE Sage/Sorcerers happier with their current set bonuses? If it is something that PvE Sages/Sorcerers would rather have as well, then which current PvE set bonus would you want to give up for it? Do you think that having a health-cost-free Noble Sacrifice/Consumption would be too good for PvE? Do you believe it might take away too much of the challenge for healing in PvE situations?

 

Please let us know your thoughts about these issues in your replies to this post. We will be listening, and we appreciate your feedback.

 

So your response is please give us your feedback? There is plenty of feedback already in the forums in the top current sage issues thread. 50 pages worth actually. If you remove the health cost of noble sacrifice on the PVP set, make it the 4 piece bonus or it will be in PVE as well.

 

On a separate issue, Sage healing is behind the other healers in PVE right now. The devs may not notice this since they dont really know what the top capabilities are of each of the healers. I know there are probably better sages healers than me out there, I just havent ever seen one on my server. I out perform the top known sage (me) using my scoundrel in current NiM ops. I also have an easier time healing with a commando than a sage with my scoundrel. If you are going to balance DPS based on the top players, then you need to do the same with sage. I have given my suggestion on a modification to salvation that closes this gap here: [Petition] Sage Seer: Suggestion to improve QoL without buffing max potential HPS The same things that make sages fall behind in PVP make them fall behind in PVE.

 

We could rather easily make Willpower affect melee attacks for Sages/Sorcerers, but we have no intention to make Sages/Sorcerers use their lightsabers more than they currently do. In terms of lore, the particular attributes that make someone a “Jedi Sage” or a “Sith Sorcerer” vary over the vast timeline of the Star Wars galaxy. And while Yoda and Palpatine were definitely inspirations for these classes, they are never identified by those terms in the films, and it wasn’t our intention to make direct gameplay clones of those characters in any case. Our feeling was that there are many players who want the experience of playing as a Jedi/Sith who relies almost solely on their mastery of the Force to resolve the challenges they face, with the lightsaber serving only as a secondary weapon; these classes were designed with that experience in mind.

 

As far as offering alternate animations and visual effects via the Cartel Market is concerned, only time will tell. Your message has been passed onto the team responsible for Cartel Market updates, and if it is possible, then you might see those options appear in the future.

 

Your response is basically: We dont want it that way, so we are not going to change it. Seems like we should get a refund on our question. You do realize that your stated goal is for the player to rely "ALMOST SOLELY" on the force and to use the lightsaber as a "SECONDARY WEAPON". Mission accomplished if this were the scattergun for the scoundrel. Since it is not, you have failed in your own goal. I dont think people are asking to replace every animation. I think more people are wanting something like the scoundrel has, where there is an ability or two that uses the weapon we have. Or MAYBE even have the abilities channeled from the saber like a staff/wand. It would be better than nothing.

I personally dont care a whole lot about this, but the response sounds a lot like: We really dont care what the players want so we will pass the buck to the cartel market team and then maybe you will see something. Reminds me a lot of the H2F and L2P responses from last time. The responses from last time and this time have validated the idea that the sage as a difficult to master class as the devs stated. The problem appears to be that the devs cannot master them.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Of all the abilities, outside of the basic two you get at character creation, I can't think of any abilities that actually incorporate the lightsaber in their animations. For the Sage it's held to the side while your other hand does the actual animation, while on the Sorc it's simply palmed while the animation runs normally.

 

Yes, I always wondered why they never just omitted the stat stick from the Sage's animations as well ?

 

That the Sorc uses both hands, actually, is to me a sign that they indeed did a look at Palpatine - but in the answer they state that there was no Jedi in the lore like the Sage ? Should we have used the word "Sorceror" instead ???

 

It really, really bugs me that they take the questions literally - and don't stray from the path (Sorc vs. Sage in terms).

 

OK, then can you get rid of the sabers entirely? It's really, really stupid to have them pulled out for absolutely no reason and makes the animations look ridiculous.

 

I fully agree to that !

 

One of the problems, I feel, with Sorcs/Sages being "Force Masters" is their toolkit is mostly a 1 trick pony. Sorc is all Lightning all the Time, and Sage is all Rocks all the time. They should be pulling stuff off the walls and ceilings and throwing senate pods are each other. They should be able to absorb damage and feed it back to their opponent. They should be tossing people all over while never touching them.

 

If you want them to be "Force Masters" then you need to make it feel like they are using a range of force abilities.

 

I agree to this as well.

 

Okay, so according to the devs we shouldn't use force armor and force mend to help with raid wide damage because its on the gcd, seems like every other class gets abilities that allow them to do that which are off the gcd. Sages are simply asking for similar abilities, otherwise they should effectively tell all classes they aren't supposed to use their dcds. So, scoundrel/slingers shouldn't use defense screen/dodge, guardian/sents shouldn't ever touch a whole host of survivability cds, vanguards/commandos should never hit that reactive shield thingamajigger, and shadows get resilience/battle readiness/deflection all of which are off the gcd. These all get used in pve to an extent to help out the healers but you are basically saying sages should have none of those aside from the three minute cd channeled "invulnerable" button which by the way still has the infamous does not work 5% of the time bug and takes us out of the fight for however long the damage is occurring or until we realize its huge effect on our dps.

 

I love the specific example that you chose about the Brontes fight, those orbs with your argument of letting another sage put the bubble on us would be great, if done the split second before contact, but that ignores the pulsing damage they do which will degrade the absorption of that shield. Every other class has an ability to use on those that reduces damage taken for some period of time rather than a flat damage taken, exception being slingers but they can cheese them by rolling through the orbs and taking no damage... If a sage attempts to cheese with force barrier, the orbs merely switch targets!

 

I am not saying these can't be done but to sit there and say we shouldn't use the defensive tools given, and count on someone else to be able to help you out in addition to themselves i.e. sage healer bubbling both you and them, when they are so hopelessly underwhelming in comparison to other classes is terrible. If that is the case, then I would expect some drastic out-parsing of the glass cannon variety but... yeah.

 

I guess at this point all we can do is laugh. I find it impossible to believe that whoever wrote this reply did so with a straight face.

 

Well put, imho.

Edited May 29, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Capote]

Where the hell is concerns related to TK sages?

 

Are you sages all gone mad, why didn't any of you ask about them?!

 

I asked the same question. Especially the melee question was outrageous. No clue what the "community" was thinking when they "voted" for this question.

 

The first answer was inevitable in an Operations context. Though there could have been some hints towards PvP - like Barrier being of of GCD when applied to yourself.

 

Well at least it is not as crappy as the last set of answers.

 

I asked that more than once when we were making the questions and was an isolated voice. Perhaps you all could have participated in the discussion rather than come here after and complain? I agree with you, but it is useless to say that now and blame Nala.

 

Anyway, I had really low expectations for their answers but somehow they managed to surprise me, it is even worse than I thought it would be.

 

"We do not currently have any plans to share with you on how we intend to improve Sage/Sorcerer healing in PvP"

???

 

You saw the problem there for ages and don't have ANY IDEA on how to balance your own game? Then you ask if a cost-free consumption would over-perform in PvE? You really even need to ask that? From "you all should L2P" to "I have no idea on how this class works", wow, what a jump!

 

make such-and-such ability activate instantly" is not a solution we are likely to consider

Then why would you make every other healing class that way? This is the only meta that works in PvP. You did it that way (stunslocks and interrupts everywhere). So basically you don't want to make that change and have no idea on how to fix it other way? And it took you from 2.0 to 2.8 to realize that?

 

Not to mention the

"We are mostly satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in Operations."

and

"please feel free to post in the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum".

ROFL, yeah, anyone that visits that wasteland knows that'll definitely work! Not an "complain here so we can pretend we read" answer for sure.

 

And yes, sages are performing sooooooo great in PvE. Such a requested class in competitive groups! I mean, it's fine that sages shouldn't use the bubble during the fight, it's not like if other classes had way better defensive cooldowns anyway, right?

 

Now, about the third question. As I said multiple times when we were creating the questions, did anyone actually expected a different answer?

 

Honestly? I knew visiting this would be a mistake, but I thought "hey, I helped doing the questions, why not see the answers?". The only thing that comes to my mind now is "don't worry, just 2 days to go". Haven't logged in for a couple weeks anyway.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Capote

[AlrikFassbauer]

I have 4 Sorcs and 2 Sages.

 

I use Force Armor/Static Barrier nearly 100% of the time I am playing, and use it in ops as well. When you pull aggro from the boss because your so burst heavy and your de-aggro is on cooldown, it's all you have. I also get a guard. And no, that's not a tanking issue. When you are a well geared Sage/Sorc...that one rotation puts your aggro sky high. I also use it in PVP. I put it on people in PVP and helps keep them alive. Heck, I end up saving tanks lives in Ops when I put it on them in HM's. I really don't see where anyone would NOT be using it in PVE and PVP. Any Sage or Sorc should always have it on. Period.

 

Furthermore, if you made more of the Sage/Soc abilities able to be cast while you are moving that would help ALOT for survivability. Most the time you get killed is because you had to stop moving to cast.

 

You should rather post that there :

 

If you find this to not be the case in any given encounter, please feel free to post in the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum, and let the Operations team know specifically which mechanic in which encounter is making you feel like you are required to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself to survive.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I am confused a bit as to why they would ever ask such a question, especially when they're limited to 3 answers only. You already have two Jedi advanced classes that use lightsaber attacks exlusively (Guardian and Sentinel) and one that combines lightsaber attacks with Force powers (Shadow). I really don't see why you would need a 4th lightsaber-using Jedi AC.

 

I think the 3rd question should have gone to TK or Balance.

 

Then, please, why is the stat stick used in Sage animations at all ???

 

 

From reading all the responses here to what the Dev's have said it is painfully obvious to me that the Dev's really don't raid much. And if they do, they rely on healers to be healed and protected, which is ridiculous considering as a Sage/Sorc you have quite a few things to keep yourself healed and protected right there already. So, the dev's don't use their Force Armor/Static Barrier and think it shouldn't be used in raids? Yet EVERY SINGLE SAGE/SORC HEALER OR DPS I KNOW USES IT NEARLY 100% OF THE TIME!!! Including me. Honestly, from what I read in the OP I wouldn't want one of these devs in my raids. Ever.

 

Furthermore, the fact that so many of your abilities require you to stand still like a tree to cast, yet somehow that doesn't effect your survivability? What? o_O I would bet every single Sage/Sorc here would say that most the reason they die or have a complaint here is because they have to stand still to cast the things that matter at a time you don't want to be standing still. I would bet that we ALL want our abilities that matter to be mobile-cast or get some kind of buff to make a few mobile for 10 seconds, or something. The only real build that get's around this is the Lightning/Maddness build, but that one requires a pile of Alacrity. I bet Bioware will try to nerf that one as well....

 

Seems to me they are very out of touch in how to play their own game and class. I honestly laughed when I read what they said about this stuff. Flat out ridiculous.

 

 

Yes, I had noticed a few months ago already that THEIR play style is diametrical different from OUR play style ...

Edited May 29, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[AlrikFassbauer]

He says all that who supported that 3rd question should be flayed alive and burned at stake for their stupidity. I'm inclined to agree.

 

If the third question had been about damage / healing ONLY, then it would be a sign that SWTOR is reduced to an simple hack & slay damage / healing / tanking fest. No story needed, no lore AT ALL needed.

 

Because all you want is questions like "how much does this improve my damage / healing / tanking" ?

 

With this, you show yourself as a kind of player who plays ANY game and will ge travelling to ANY other MMO, simply because lore and story doesn't matter to you. You just don't care whether this is an STAR WARS game - you are merely interested in NUMBER WARS.

 

To me, as an role-player, this is an INSULT.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I only have one question about this, which I'm sure was asked already somewhere.

 

 

 

If this is the case, then what is the Telekinetic Defense talent doing in the Telekinetics tree?

 

If we're not supposed to be using Force Armor as a DPS at all, shouldn't it be moved to the Seer tree? Swap it with Pain Bearer maybe, so that DPS can have access to a passive healing bonus?

 

Good catch.

[Gnoblesse]

As much as I like the idea that they're looking at set bonuses and also finally realizing that a mechanic that requires you to help the other team kill you by taking away some of your own health, to regain your needed resource make no sense, I don't like the idea of it being the 4pc set bonus, and here's why.

 

I use the 2pc PvE set bonus for PvP. Without it, healing, in terms of what cooldown is up when, just feels...clunky and unnatural to me. Given that Dark Infusion takes forever to cast, good luck getting that off against someone who knows how to interrupt, Innervate is that much more important, and the idea of returning to the full 9s cooldown for it makes me shudder.

 

And on top of that, as far as arenas go, I don't see anything in the answers that addresses the fact that our major DCD is essentially a self stun, meaning that unless we got REALLY lucky and managed to actually get a healing puddle down on top of most of our teammates (which can be countered by just dropping AoEs on top of it or knocking them all out of it anyway,) we're doing NO HEALING on our teammates for the duration of the barrier.

 

Edit, apologies for using sorc ability names in a sage forum post, but I'm sure most will not have a huge issue figuring out what I meant.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Gnoblesse

[JDotter]

Hello, bringing words from Hakkology since he QUIT the game and went F2P so he can't post.

 

Paraphrasing ( Original was a lot worse.)

 

He says all that who supported that 3rd question should be flayed alive and burned at stake for their stupidity. I'm inclined to agree.

 

He also says force armor is as fine as it is, but the removal of GCD from Force Mend was something that even Nibbon was screaming back when the skill was first introduced. It's a must.

 

PvP set bonus being changed to affect NS is a bad idea, and I agree with this as well. It'd be Gunslingers all over again. And overpowered at PvE healing.

 

And he also said that this clearly demonstrates what devs want for sages: Quit the game.

 

No TK fix AT ALL, balance being behind NO MATTER HOW BUFFED IT IS, and healing is only barely on par with commando in PvE. He advises all of you to either quit the game or reroll. While I don't necessarily agree with this part, the same is also happening to us Guardians as well, so there's a nugget of truth there.

 

Take this as however you want. I don't think Hakkology will come back unless something drastic happens in 3.0, and he is happy with Wildstar.

 

You are dwindling in numbers and no longer possess the heavy hitters such as Nibbon or Handcuff, no respectable sage to speak of has been left.

 

You are dying. Whether you take it lying face down and succumbing or fighting it to your last breath, that is your choice.

 

BUT NO WAY IN HELL you'll find salvation with questions like Question 3.

 

I mean seriously, MELEE damage?! That was your concern?!

 

 

lol 10 chars

[elvavwiel]

A 25% bonus to dodge any form of hit for 6s might as well be a coin toss. Imagine resilience being only 25% chance vs tech/force, would anyone chance it in a NiM op? Hell no.

 

Kind off forgetting that resilience (and barrier) still has the ready and willing to screw you 5% fail chance thats inherent to that mechanic. I've had my tanks explode on me before because the game decided it was time for that guaranteed at least 5% chance to hit.

(1/20 chance of being one shot is still bad)

 

If the third question had been about damage / healing ONLY, then it would be a sign that SWTOR is reduced to an simple hack & slay damage / healing / tanking fest. No story needed, no lore AT ALL needed.

 

Because all you want is questions like "how much does this improve my damage / healing / tanking" ?

 

With this, you show yourself as a kind of player who plays ANY game and will ge travelling to ANY other MMO, simply because lore and story doesn't matter to you. You just don't care whether this is an STAR WARS game - you are merely interested in NUMBER WARS.

 

To me, as an role-player, this is an INSULT.

 

When i roleplay i'm not really all that bothered with my combat mechanics as i cant even use them outside of combat. Also, why would anyone in their right mind go for a evadeable attack with a clearly visible glowstick when they can just crush the enemy with their mind?

If i have gun and a dagger i'll always be using the damn gun before ever resorting to the dagger.

 

The only reason the great 'icons' that use force powers use their saber is in defence (just as sages do), a guy slashes their saber at you so you block, then you use the force to lift a ship, rock, throw lightning at the enemy.

 

 

Anyway, its all our perception thats wrong, we just need to l2p and h2f.

[cxten]

We do not currently have any plans to share with you on how we intend to improve Sage/Sorcerer healing in PvP, but it is a priority for us, and we would love to hear your own ideas on how you would like Sage/Sorcerer healing to be improved in PvP without also making Sage/Sorcerer healing too good in PvE. We will say in advance that, “make such-and-such ability activate instantly,” is not a solution we are likely to consider (unless it is a temporary buff triggered by something else, and not a permanent reduction of activation time). Our goal is to keep Sage/Sorcerer healing as close as possible to the way it is in PvE, while improving how it performs in PvP.

 

Suggestions: (The intention is that some, not all, of these would be adopted)

 

1. I think having Conveyance cause Benevolence to be an instant cast would be great (instead of or in addition to the other bonus it grants Benevolence). I assume this agrees with your "temporary buff triggered by something else" restriction.

 

2. Maybe the effect duration of Force Armor could be increased. From 30s to 1 minute would be a big help. This would make the group-wide preparation sages can do more viable. As it stands, it is liable to fall off before engagement. To compare: Commandos/Mercenaries obviously have very long lasting preparation in their trauma probes. Scoundrels/Operatives prepare with their hots, but mechanically they are cheap and easy to refresh double stacks, whereas rebubbling everyone right before engagement would take a big cut out of a sage's force pool for the fight.

 

3. If we're looking at healing output buffs for pvp, the pvp set bonus could reduce the lockout timer for force armor more and/or reduce its cost further. Or maybe the whole class (pve & pvp) could use a mild buff with a slightly decreased lockout timer overall.

 

4. Have a healer talent that makes force barrier aid allies in some way. The recent change to add the extra absorb shield was great for dps sages/sorcs, but may not have been enough for healers in pvp, who have to stop healing to grow the absorb shield. Example possibilities:

a) Have it also place growing absorb shields on (nearby?) teammates (maybe only in pvp)

b) Have it provide a pbaoe heal centered on the barriered healer sage/sorc while active

c) [Completely different tack] Have it provide the full absorb shield instantly (for healers), so they can break the channel sooner to keep healing but still get the full absorb shield. Or alternatively, have it ramp up to full faster for healers.

 

Now here are some questions for the Sage/Sorcerer community, regarding Noble Sacrifice/Consumption. Do you believe removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice/Consumption as a PvP set bonus would be something that PvE Sage/Sorcerer healers also feel like they need, or are PvE Sage/Sorcerers happier with their current set bonuses? If it is something that PvE Sages/Sorcerers would rather have as well, then which current PvE set bonus would you want to give up for it? Do you think that having a health-cost-free Noble Sacrifice/Consumption would be too good for PvE? Do you believe it might take away too much of the challenge for healing in PvE situations?

 

PVE: I would find it boring for noble sacrifice not to cost health in pve. If it's offered, pve sages/sorcs may well take it as it would probably be pretty good for pve as well, but I would find that unfortunate.

 

Putting it as the pvp 4-piece set bonus would probably make it inaccessible for pve, though, as the pve 2-piece bonus is too good to give up in pve.

 

(If that's not enough, you could go further and have the pvp trauma debuff change the health cost of noble sacrifice. Or have a pvp set bonus involving noble sacrifice require the trauma debuff to work.)

Edited May 29, 2014 by cxten