The "BIG" Expansion is Getting Delayed to 2015 Isn't It?

[Khevar]

the same thing happens with the whole "raids are story" thing with players like me.

When a player that doesn't like doing group content (which is fine, I have no problem with that) looks at story in operations and complains, "why are you preventing me from experiencing that story?" I feel like what that person is actually asking for, is "please make sure that operations have no story."

 

The Dread Masters arc was told primarily through operations. It's true that the purely solo player can't experience it.

 

But that's simply because Bioware decided to give operations players some story, too.

 

What's so bad about that?

[Darth_Wicked]

When a player that doesn't like doing group content (which is fine, I have no problem with that) looks at story in operations and complains, "why are you preventing me from experiencing that story?" I feel like what that person is actually asking for, is "please make sure that operations have no story."

 

The Dread Masters arc was told primarily through operations. It's true that the purely solo player can't experience it.

 

But that's simply because Bioware decided to give operations players some story, too.

 

What's so bad about that?

 

I think the key is...

MMO.

If people can't be bothered to do a story-driven operation for the sake of enjoying the story, then I guess the story factor isn't as relevant for them as they like to imply.

 

I really don't have that much love for PvP or GSF but if there's stuff in there that I like, I might as well give it a try and NOT admonish Bioware for giving me reasons to do so.

 

So... Why should these snowflakes by any different truth be told?

 

Regardless, there's nothing wrong about that. Cutscene material for TFB or EC never gets old for me.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[DimmuJanKaarl]

When a player that doesn't like doing group content (which is fine, I have no problem with that) looks at story in operations and complains, "why are you preventing me from experiencing that story?" I feel like what that person is actually asking for, is "please make sure that operations have no story."

 

The Dread Masters arc was told primarily through operations. It's true that the purely solo player can't experience it.

 

But that's simply because Bioware decided to give operations players some story, too.

 

What's so bad about that?

 

 

To some of us, the whole "raids are story too" thing feels just like people felt when EAware tried to sneak story content into CM gamble packs. It really pissed a lot of people off because there were a lot of people who simply would not or could not experience that content. I played for a year before I managed to get into my first op. I was pissed about how much story content I had missed out on because I "wasn't good enough" to be in an op by that point. Even then, over the next 6 months or so after that, it was very rare that I could get into an op. My proposed solution takes care of that issue: ops players want story too? Great, put story into ops. However, they should also give a solo-play option for all content that allows everyone to experience that content, not just a special class of player; and no, having to wait a year (or more at the current pace) for flashpoints and ops to become easy enough to solo due to level cap increases does not count. We have flat-out been told there will be no more individual class stories. So as an alternative to those of us who play this game primarily for story content, and have little to no interest to deal with the raid crowd (or pvp crowd for that matter), give us a true story mode and let us solo all content.

[Khevar]

However, they should also give a solo-play option for all content that allows everyone to experience that content

The main thing that would make an Operations really hard for a solo player is mechanics. Take the Fabricator in Karagga's palace. That's a puzzle boss. Players up top solve the puzzle, players down below kill the boss.

 

There are other examples like that. Making operations viable for a solo player (other than simply outleveling and outgearing it, which you indicated is not a valid solution for you) would require a completely re-write of all fight mechanics.

 

If there were excess resources floating around that could be tasked to re-write a special "soloable" version of all these operations, wouldn't you be better served by those same resources being spent making new content, designed for the solo player from the ground up?

[DimmuJanKaarl]

If there were excess resources floating around that could be tasked to re-write a special "soloable" version of all these operations, wouldn't you be better served by those same resources being spent making new content, designed for the solo player from the ground up?

 

Ah the old "resources are better spend doing X" argument. No, I'm not knocking what you're saying but that is such an incredibly over-used argument here on the forums, I can't help but point it out. Yes, there are lots of things the available resources could be doing that would be better. An important factor in your statement being a viable option is that the modus operandi of the dev team seems to be constant recycling of existing content. Obviously group mechanics won't work in single player mode. I think a more effective use of resources wouldn't be to completely re-write the fights (the argument of "no they can't do that because they'll have to completely re-write X, Y, and Z" is another over-used one in my opinion), but rather to simply turn off those mechanics. Ok, yes, that would "technically" be rewriting, but no I don't mean write new, single player mechanics; I think an easy, viable solution would be make the boss an elite, turn off mechanics. BAM. Problem solved. There are plenty of pre-scripted encounters that this should be trivial (part of what those enemy "class" names are for: level X elite "scrapper", or level Y champion "fistfighter"). It's just like the argument that they can't turn on same gender romance with existing companions because "they'd have to rewrite everything". Say what? The dialog options, like the fight mechanics for single player, are already written. In the case of SGR, they simply need to flip a switch (i.e., add a conditional) that gives all gender-based dialog options to either gender. Bottom line is: just because it's different doesn't mean it's particularly difficult, and they are already devoting resources to recycling existing content, apparently in lieu of or at a higher priority to producing new content.

[Khevar]

Bottom line is: just because it's different doesn't mean it's particularly difficult, and they are already devoting resources to recycling existing content, apparently in lieu of or at a higher priority to producing new content.

Sure, whatever. I have no idea what it would take to do what you're asking -- I don't do MMO development. Do you?

 

Also (just because I'm curious), are you additionally looking for the gear drops and the decoration drops available to the solo quester? Or just the opportunity to watch cutscenes inside the operation rather than on youtube?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Khevar

[DarthDymond]

<I really don't like that players are forced to do group content just to see what happens in the storyline.>

The thing is, MMO game design often has to "encourage" (some people use the term "force") some players outside their comfort zone, at least initially, in order to get enough players participating in that content so that it works - PVP and Group PVE Content are the big two. If no one was encouraged/forced to participate in Flashpoints or Operations, the pool of players available to group with for those who do enjoy them would drop off significantly, to the point where some (many?) players would be left unable to participate because they can't fill out groups at the time they are available to play.

 

"Well, if you've got to screw over one group for the sake of the other, why screw over solo players instead of screwing over group players?" someone might ask. But I think there are legitimate reasons for an MMO to go in this direction:

 

For one, while a lot of people prefer solo play, at least initially, once they are encouraged(/forced) outside their comfort zone most come to enjoy group content as well - they just need an initial "push" to get them to give it a fair shot. There certainly are some people who legitimately hate grouping with others (or just hate grouping for others in the context of something with a story aspect), and they are getting the short end of the stick here, but at the end of the day I think that group is much, much smaller than the number of people who would just be opting out of group content because its quicker/simpler/more comfortable for them to use a solo option. The more aspects of the game they can get people involved in, there more content the game suddenly has for those players, and the longer those players are likely to stick with this game.

 

For another, (and I'm sorry but I can't cite to a specific article off-hand for this,) I believe I've read that there's evidence that players who engage in social aspects of an MMO - be it guilds, or raid groups, or PVP teams, etc. - are more likely to remain subscribed to (or at least active in) the game. It makes a sense that most people who treat an MMO as a single-player game in terms of play style will also do what most people do with a single-player game: play through the content once, then move on to the next game (maybe come back to it every once in a while or when new DLC comes out). MMOs thrive when people stay subscribed/active even between Updates/DLCs, so they do better to encourage people to get socially involved in-game, and encouraging them to do Group Content is a big gateway to that.

[tdmaha]

When a player that doesn't like doing group content (which is fine, I have no problem with that) looks at story in operations and complains, "why are you preventing me from experiencing that story?" I feel like what that person is actually asking for, is "please make sure that operations have no story."

 

The Dread Masters arc was told primarily through operations. It's true that the purely solo player can't experience it.

 

But that's simply because Bioware decided to give operations players some story, too.

 

What's so bad about that?

 

I don't think it's the story that is the problem for these people who complain about it. These people think they deserve are entitled to the same content the same rewards as those who run OPS. If the story was that big of a deal to them they could watch it on youtube to catch up. But it's not about the story it's about them feeling sorry for themselves and bring in their entitlement mentality that they deserve everything without working for it.

[ZaruenMakai]

One major problem about all the last page discussion of this threadf. and a problem with doing HM FP/OPS for story.

 

 

Most people who do ops ruin the story for everyone by forcing them to skip verything.. so the people who do want to do ops for the story dont even get to do that because they are forced to skip it every time.

 

No ... but I've seen it a thousand times argument... anbyone who has seen a raid/ops story shoud not be pugging with randoms and first timers.. Whenever i form/join an ops group i always check to make sure if anyone hasnt seen the story and i allow them to take as much time as they need.. in the mean time i just take some time to do some IRL chorse....

 

I just cant stand when poor newbies dont even get to see the story cuz of people that are ignorant about newbies who care very much about the story and dont want it to be ruined because of skippers. Also catching up and watching on Youtube is not a viable solution imo... its not the same as it happening in the game.. not to mention that like i said... the story/gameplay is spoiled this way.

[tdmaha]

One major problem about all the last page discussion of this threadf. and a problem with doing HM FP/OPS for story.

 

 

Most people who do ops ruin the story for everyone by forcing them to skip verything.. so the people who do want to do ops for the story dont even get to do that because they are forced to skip it every time.

 

No ... but I've seen it a thousand times argument... anbyone who has seen a raid/ops story shoud not be pugging with randoms and first timers.. Whenever i form/join an ops group i always check to make sure if anyone hasnt seen the story and i allow them to take as much time as they need.. in the mean time i just take some time to do some IRL chorse....

 

I just cant stand when poor newbies dont even get to see the story cuz of people that are ignorant about newbies who care very much about the story and dont want it to be ruined because of skippers. Also catching up and watching on Youtube is not a viable solution imo... its not the same as it happening in the game.. not to mention that like i said... the story/gameplay is spoiled this way.

 

I have never experienced someone being yelled at or kicked when they let the group know they want to watch the cut scenes. I find 100% of the time the group is perfectly fine with it especially in OPs because during the time when the person is watching the cut scenes bio breaks, explanations being typed out or voice chat. This notion that players force others to skip is inaccurate and the ones who complain about having to wait are usually the ones getting ripped.

[ZaruenMakai]

Well I am glad to hear that is no longer the case than.... back when i first started playing it was something i saw people complaining about quite frequently.... I wasnt sure if that was still going on on my server as i stopped running ops /raids deleted all my old gear (not out of rage but because the gear was no longer good and i wanted a fresh start ( it was Rating 126 Columni anyways) (which can easily be replaced by makeb comms. I am glad that no one cares about people not skipping story anymore! That is the only thing that really bugged me about ops and flashpoints... Edited September 4, 2014 by ZaruenMakai

[MillionsKNives]

One major problem about all the last page discussion of this threadf. and a problem with doing HM FP/OPS for story.

 

 

Most people who do ops ruin the story for everyone by forcing them to skip verything.. so the people who do want to do ops for the story dont even get to do that because they are forced to skip it every time.

 

No ... but I've seen it a thousand times argument... anbyone who has seen a raid/ops story shoud not be pugging with randoms and first timers.. Whenever i form/join an ops group i always check to make sure if anyone hasnt seen the story and i allow them to take as much time as they need.. in the mean time i just take some time to do some IRL chorse....

 

I just cant stand when poor newbies dont even get to see the story cuz of people that are ignorant about newbies who care very much about the story and dont want it to be ruined because of skippers. Also catching up and watching on Youtube is not a viable solution imo... its not the same as it happening in the game.. not to mention that like i said... the story/gameplay is spoiled this way.

 

There's an important difference to how story is portrayed in Operations than how it's done in regular quests and Flashpoints. Operations cutscenes can be watched by yourself, even if you're in a group. You're not holding up the group by watching them. Also, the real story parts of the operation really only take place before and after the operation itself, when you pick up and turn in the one-time quests. Another good thing is that all of those one-time quests can be picked up and turned in outside the instance, by yourself whenever you feel like it. Except for KP and EC, which only require that you form an ops group to enter the instance and pick it up right at the beginning. You can do that by just grabbing a friend and forming a two-man ops group.

 

The cutscenes that you get inside the instances also have no dialog and can be watched separately from everyone else. If the rest of the group spacebars then they're not locked into waiting for you to finish.

 

Overall operations are set up much better for people to watch the story without being harassed than flashpoints.

Edited September 4, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[manabuka]

I don't think it's the story that is the problem for these people who complain about it. These people think they deserve are entitled to the same content the same rewards as those who run OPS. If the story was that big of a deal to them they could watch it on youtube to catch up. But it's not about the story it's about them feeling sorry for themselves and bring in their entitlement mentality that they deserve everything without working for it.

 

I disagree strongly with your premise. This game has drawn many former single player RPG gamers to it, myself included. I have never played an mmo before and probably won't play another. I play this because it's Bioware and it's Star Wars and it's story driven. The rewards (gear) mean very little to me compared to the experience of playing through the story. I want to see and experience every element of the story. If that means I'm forced to group, I'll grudgingly do so. But it doesn't mean I like being forced to.

 

This game has bridged two very different styles of gaming for many people and the culture shock is, frankly, immense. I would much rather play this like Mass Effect or Final Fantasy, but it's just not possible. I'm not driven by desire for better gear. I'm driven by more story. To claim that all the single player RPG players that are here are driven by the same reward system that you are is patently false. You can tell us all to go and play other games if you want to, but that's not a real solution. I have been subscribed to this game since day 1. And I will remain subscribed. But I would prefer to play like I've always played games. The fact that I cannot is disappointing. And for other less devoted Star Wars and/or Bioware fans, it's a deal breaker.

[tdmaha]

But I would prefer to play like I've always played games. The fact that I cannot is disappointing. And for other less devoted Star Wars and/or Bioware fans, it's a deal breaker.

 

Then go play single player RPGs. Swtor is one of the most single player friendly mmos out, but to expect the entire game to cater to single player Rpg fans is... no offense ignorant. This is an MMO, this MMO has a great single player experience, but that doesn't mean you get to experience the entire game if you only choose to go the single player route.

 

You cannot because you choose not too, it's not BW fault it's not players who enjoy the mmo aspect of the game it's your fault. A deal breaker? Yes for a very very small group of players who came to an mmo and expected to be able to run everything, experience everything solo...but we already explained above what those players are...again no offense.

[ImmortalLowlife]

I disagree strongly with your premise. This game has drawn many former single player RPG gamers to it, myself included. I have never played an mmo before and probably won't play another. I play this because it's Bioware and it's Star Wars and it's story driven. The rewards (gear) mean very little to me compared to the experience of playing through the story. I want to see and experience every element of the story. If that means I'm forced to group, I'll grudgingly do so. But it doesn't mean I like being forced to.

 

This game has bridged two very different styles of gaming for many people and the culture shock is, frankly, immense. I would much rather play this like Mass Effect or Final Fantasy, but it's just not possible. I'm not driven by desire for better gear. I'm driven by more story. To claim that all the single player RPG players that are here are driven by the same reward system that you are is patently false. You can tell us all to go and play other games if you want to, but that's not a real solution. I have been subscribed to this game since day 1. And I will remain subscribed. But I would prefer to play like I've always played games. The fact that I cannot is disappointing. And for other less devoted Star Wars and/or Bioware fans, it's a deal breaker.

 

THIS ^^^ x 1000!

 

I couldn't care less about gear. I had the gear (look) I wanted at lvl 1, I'm here for story. And I've never done an Op, tho not because of lack of trying. But the few times I've gotten into Op's groups all ended the same way. With me getting kicked because

1. I asked the question "anything special I need to know about?"

(Noob! Kicked)

 

2. My gear wasn't good enough (even tho i was in all 156's & a few 162's & it wasn't a HM/NiM)

 

I've been subbed for several years now hoping they'd eventually give us more solo' able story content. Now I'm at the point where I'm done. I'll keep my sub until the major expansion this year (even tho I haven't logged in since GSH launched), but if there's nothing there for my style of play..,,I'm done.

Edited September 4, 2014 by ImmortalLowlife

[TUXs]

I disagree strongly with your premise. This game has drawn many former single player RPG gamers to it, myself included. I have never played an mmo before and probably won't play another. I play this because it's Bioware and it's Star Wars and it's story driven. The rewards (gear) mean very little to me compared to the experience of playing through the story. I want to see and experience every element of the story. If that means I'm forced to group, I'll grudgingly do so. But it doesn't mean I like being forced to.

 

This game has bridged two very different styles of gaming for many people and the culture shock is, frankly, immense. I would much rather play this like Mass Effect or Final Fantasy, but it's just not possible. I'm not driven by desire for better gear. I'm driven by more story. To claim that all the single player RPG players that are here are driven by the same reward system that you are is patently false. You can tell us all to go and play other games if you want to, but that's not a real solution. I have been subscribed to this game since day 1. And I will remain subscribed. But I would prefer to play like I've always played games. The fact that I cannot is disappointing. And for other less devoted Star Wars and/or Bioware fans, it's a deal breaker.

EXCELLENT post!!!! We're glad you're here with us, even if you don't like playing with us I hope this MMO opens you up to a whole new genre of gaming.

 

My personal draw to MMO's, over other game types, is that my story doesn't have an ending...after I'm done with what Bioware wrote, I can continue my journey and continue to improve my character through experience. I find that appealing. I hope you find more, beyond the story, to enjoy.

[manabuka]

Then go play single player RPGs. Swtor is one of the most single player friendly mmos out, but to expect the entire game to cater to single player Rpg fans is... no offense ignorant. This is an MMO, this MMO has a great single player experience, but that doesn't mean you get to experience the entire game if you only choose to go the single player route.

 

You cannot because you choose not too, it's not BW fault it's not players who enjoy the mmo aspect of the game it's your fault. A deal breaker? Yes for a very very small group of players who came to an mmo and expected to be able to run everything, experience everything solo...but we already explained above what those players are...again no offense.

 

You ignored most of what I said. But whatever...I think you are highly underestimating the number of SP RPG fans who are playing this game. And I never said they should remake the entire game. That would be absurd. I would simply like more choices in style of play. Not to take away anyone else's. Please don't call me ignorant when you only read part of what I wrote or merely drew the wrong conclusion from it. I am saying it would be nice if they added options, not took them away. And like I said previously, I do play group content. I just don't like being forced to. And again, I subscribe, and will continue to do so. But not everyone will. And I think that's a larger number than you think it is.

[TUXs]

You ignored most of what I said. But whatever...I think you are highly underestimating the number of SP RPG fans who are playing this game. And I never said they should remake the entire game. That would be absurd. I would simply like more choices in style of play. Not to take away anyone else's. Please don't call me ignorant when you only read part of what I wrote or merely drew the wrong conclusion from it. I am saying it would be nice if they added options, not took them away. And like I said previously, I do play group content. I just don't like being forced to. And again, I subscribe, and will continue to do so. But not everyone will. And I think that's a larger number than you think it is.

 

Don't fret over him. Some people here only post to antagonize others. The second they suggest you play something else, is the second you know they're just trying to ruffle feathers.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

Dunno. makeb pre-order was in december back then and came out in april. making 4 mths, right?

 

So if we want to put this in the way RoTHC happened, time-wise, we should already have much more than what we got now, maybe already the pre-order.

 

no pre-orders around so far.

 

Perhaps the mighty yellow should descend into here and give a clue on what's happening, or, for now at least, what's not happening.

[tdmaha]

THIS ^^^ x 1000!

 

I couldn't care less about gear. I had the gear (look) I wanted at lvl 1, I'm here for story. And I've never done an Op, tho not because of lack of trying. But the few times I've gotten into Op's groups all ended the same way. With me getting kicked because

1. I asked the question "anything special I need to know about?"

(Noob! Kicked)

 

2. My gear wasn't good enough (even tho i was in all 156's & a few 162's & it wasn't a HM/NiM)

 

.

 

Well let me just say I'm calling BS !

 

1) I have never been in an ops that kicked a player because they asked a question. Now if you go afk in protest because you don't want to run the ops then yes you will get kicked. But for asking a question that 100% BS

 

2) nobody get kicked from sm ops anymore and have not in awhile you know why? Cause they are bolstered. Again I'm calling BS.

 

If you got kicked...

 

1) it wasn't because you asked a question

 

2) it wasn't because of your gear....well unless you had strength mods on a sorc....

[Elminster_cs]

Dunno. makeb pre-order was in december back then and came out in april. making 4 mths, right?

 

So if we want to put this in the way RoTHC happened, time-wise, we should already have much more than what we got now, maybe already the pre-order.

 

no pre-orders around so far.

 

Perhaps the mighty yellow should descend into here and give a clue on what's happening, or, for now at least, what's not happening.

 

This because it will be probably a free, or a very cheap, expansion. They are scared to loose players, because of a cost of an expansion, and probably they have no interest on try to push something very big spending lot of money.

 

This is why I have not big aspectation from this expansion, it will be like makeb or even smaller.

 

A dream a 30euro expansion... but BIG, damn so big that will take me 2 weeks per character to level up. A dream of course.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Elminster_cs

[TUXs]

Well let me just say I'm calling BS !

 

1) I have never been in an ops that kicked a player because they asked a question. Now if you go afk in protest because you don't want to run the ops then yes you will get kicked. But for asking a question that 100% BS

 

2) nobody get kicked from sm ops anymore and have not in awhile you know why? Cause they are bolstered. Again I'm calling BS.

 

If you got kicked...

 

1) it wasn't because you asked a question

 

2) it wasn't because of your gear....well unless you had strength mods on a sorc....

LOL! Like you'd know.

[tdmaha]

You ignored most of what I said. But whatever...I think you are highly underestimating the number of SP RPG fans who are playing this game. And I never said they should remake the entire game. That would be absurd. I would simply like more choices in style of play. Not to take away anyone else's. Please don't call me ignorant when you only read part of what I wrote or merely drew the wrong conclusion from it. I am saying it would be nice if they added options, not took them away. And like I said previously, I do play group content. I just don't like being forced to. And again, I subscribe, and will continue to do so. But not everyone will. And I think that's a larger number than you think it is.

 

First I didn't call you ignorant. I said IF you came to an mmo expecting to experience everything as a solo played then you were.

 

Second this game is already the most solo friendly mmo out, they will continue to and will continue to add content for the solo player, but it's also and mmo and they will add mmo aspects. For some to complain about adding mmo/group content that solo player can't play is ridiculous.

[Elminster_cs]

First I didn't call you ignorant. I said IF you came to an mmo expecting to experience everything as a solo played then you were.

 

Believe me... i know lot of people that have bought ESO... thinking it was a single player game and complain later that they have to pay for play... XD

[tdmaha]

LOL! Like you'd know.

 

Really? You think players get kicked for asking questions? They get kicked in sm ops because of gear? Hey if you have an issue with me I'm sure there is an ignore feature. Running around and stalking all my post is getting a little weird. I'd reply to you more but you just run and report me and frankly it's awkward having forum stalker and I thought if I just let you be you would get over it...I see that is not the case with you...