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The lack of "Built-In" VOIP is really giving premades a HUGE advantage


Zharik

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I don't think they should add VOIP to SWTOR.

 

 

WoW has built in VOIP. No one uses it.

 

 

No.

 

One.

 

 

 

 

That's the problem. It's a ton of effort and no one will use it. I'm sure the devs won't even waste their time thinking about it, but in case they are: please don't.

 

 

"But we'd use it!"

 

 

No, you wouldn't. You already can get any number of free voice programs! The people who don't have voice comms don't want them and won't use them!

 

Also read the OP...

 

Stop telling me that I would not use this... I WOULD!

 

It is TOTALLY UNREALISTIC to expect PUGs to Alt + Tab out and join some random pilot's TS3/Vent?mumble when joining a ~10 minute match. This does nothing for late joiners, either.

Edited by Zharik
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Sometimes I fly in premade, and we never use voice. And I'm pretty sure nobody who is flying on my server is using voice. It is more about saying at start where you go and then looking at map and seeing where the enemy is. You don't need voice, you need common sense.

 

This isnt ground pvp where you need couple fo sec burst to kill healer or opportunity is gone for a couple of minute.

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I don't see any reasonable argument why this is request does not have merit. The real question is whether BioWare deems it the best use of their limited resources.

 

You just answered your own musing about why it doesn't have merit.

 

Blizzard added in-game VOIP to WoW in the middle of the Burning Crusade, the first expansion.

 

Its implementation broke an ungodly amount of unrelated systems and nobody used it, making it a colossal effort for effectively no benefit.

 

The only way to beat organization, assuming the people who are organized aren't bad, is to organize yourself.

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Mine in orange.

 

And don't try to tell me that I could get solo queuers into a VOIP, because that is quite unreasonable. Also, that does nothing for late joiners who can't get the info for the mumble/TS3/Vent, etc. while people are flying. Damn right. You won't get ME joining, that's for sure. I prefer professional voice actors, and I'm certain beyond all doubt that no one wants to hear MY voice while playing.

 

Built-in VOIP is needed. Premades are already using them, this would at least level the playing field a little. There have been several games in the past that used a similar system, and it worked well (Battlefield 2 comes to mind). If you want to do what the premades are doing, you can do that without any more additions to the game code. What the premades do is called "effort". They put forth the effort to organize, set up their voice servers, and coordinate using them. If ya can't beat 'em, copy their gameplan.

 

Just give an option to mute people if they are immature/cuss a lot/whatever you don't like.I wonder if you have any idea how many people would get muted. I mean, you're suggesting throwing PUGs together onto voice. If it weren't for my extreme personal distaste for vocalization, I'd troll the HELL out of that concept. Mercilessly.

 

Negative comments about this thread are not wanted; this suggestion won't hurt you at ALL, so don't try to deny the general GSF (and ground game) population something that they NEED to compete. (especially from the people who are constantly in premades using VOIP)Guess I shoulda read this bit before replying, eh? Doesn't matter. Sugarcoating won't be beneficial to YOU, either. And I just can't placate a person for the sake of placation - tellin' 'em their ideas are great and grand and whatever even if they're disasters in the making and all that? What purpose does that serve? -bp

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Also read the OP...

 

Stop telling me that I would not use this... I WOULD!

 

It is TOTALLY UNREALISTIC to expect PUGs to Alt + Tab out and join some random pilot's TS3/Vent?mumble when joining a ~10 minute match. This does nothing for late joiners, either.

 

Ah! I see your fundamental issue here. You're PUGgin' wrong.

 

Yeah, it's gonna be a clustermess if you try to set up a different premade EVERY SINGLE MATCH. What SMART people do is get a group together BEFORE a match and generally stick with 'em for a few matches.

 

What you're trying to do here is tailor the game to your personal preferences - a non-starter on any MMO. You need to learn how to problem-solve instead of expecting On High to custom-code the game to your tastes.

 

I can tell you right now that this idea will NEVER happen. No matter what you do. And with good reason. The sooner you can accept that, the better you'll feel and the faster you'll be able to adapt the way you feel you need to. -bp

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Ah!

 

What you're trying to do here is tailor the game to your personal preferences - a non-starter on any MMO. You need to learn how to problem-solve instead of expecting On High to custom-code the game to your tastes.

 

I can tell you right now that this idea will NEVER happen. No matter what you do. And with good reason. The sooner you can accept that, the better you'll feel and the faster you'll be able to adapt the way you feel you need to. -bp

 

LOL

 

What he is trying to do is see the devs acknowledge there is a gap between the design of GSF and the actual dynamics of the GSF community. You maybe right that it won't happen, but that has more to do with devs being willing to see their creations rot rather than admit they were wrong.

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LOL

 

What he is trying to do is see the devs acknowledge there is a gap between the design of GSF and the actual dynamics of the GSF community. You maybe right that it won't happen, but that has more to do with devs being willing to see their creations rot rather than admit they were wrong.

 

for some reason (one that I don't understand) voice chat is not an easy thing to implement. Many games have tried, few have succeeded (outside of consoles, which have MASSIVE resources)

 

That being said while it would be nice to have built in VOIP, I doubt it will happen. Luckily mumble and TS are very viable replacements (and easy to use)

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for some reason (one that I don't understand) voice chat is not an easy thing to implement. Many games have tried, few have succeeded (outside of consoles, which have MASSIVE resources)

 

That being said while it would be nice to have built in VOIP, I doubt it will happen. Luckily mumble and TS are very viable replacements (and easy to use)

 

I doubt that VOIP will be a cureall myself but there are other concepts that don't have a place coexisting with it.

 

Fog of war ? Really makes no sense if you know some people will have the means to bypass it.

The chat system being typing based ? Really needs to be improved maybe macro keybinds attached to the function keys.

Some sort of ops priority message would also go a long way.

Better directionals would also be nice.

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LOL

 

What he is trying to do is see the devs acknowledge there is a gap between the design of GSF and the actual dynamics of the GSF community. You maybe right that it won't happen, but that has more to do with devs being willing to see their creations rot rather than admit they were wrong.

 

There's no actual gap. Teamspeak, Mumble, Ventrilo, Dolby AXON - all available currently to any pilot that wants to set it up.

 

Considering this, the only "concern" is that Bioware hasn't done the setup work for us, which smacks of laziness... on the part of the player, naturally.

 

Finally, use of voice chat is actually a minority on our server. Most fly mute. They do rather well. I imagine they prefer it that way and would pass on a chat option if provided, but I'll let them speak for themselves. -bp

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There's no actual gap. Teamspeak, Mumble, Ventrilo, Dolby AXON - all available currently to any pilot that wants to set it up.<snip>

 

Then I challenge you to set up something... queue solo for a few matches and see how many you get to join you. If you are group queuing, then that is a premade and does not count. Good luck! (I actually mean that completely)

 

Report your success/failure here and we can discuss it.

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T

Considering this, the only "concern" is that Bioware hasn't done the setup work for us, which smacks of laziness... on the part of the player, naturally.

 

You know I can live with wanting to be lazy in things I do for fun. It's why I still watch television channels and bought a Tivo

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Then I challenge you to set up something... queue solo for a few matches and see how many you get to join you. If you are group queuing, then that is a premade and does not count. Good luck! (I actually mean that completely)

 

Report your success/failure here and we can discuss it.

 

Why? I already stated I don't use the service. It doesn't matter to me if you use it or not, however.

 

Also, I ain't your mom. You wanna find out? You're a bright kid, I'm sure. Knock yourself out, sport.

 

And then, once you've regained consciousness, try those four links. Lemme know how it goes.

 

Or don't. I don't even know who you are, so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. ;) -bp

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You know I can live with wanting to be lazy in things I do for fun. It's why I still watch television channels and bought a Tivo

 

Have fun with that, then! Bedsore research is important, and you can contribute! For science! Or something. -bp

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Why? I already stated I don't use the service. It doesn't matter to me if you use it or not, however.

 

Also, I ain't your mom. You wanna find out? You're a bright kid, I'm sure. Knock yourself out, sport.

 

And then, once you've regained consciousness, try those four links. Lemme know how it goes.

 

Or don't. I don't even know who you are, so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. ;) -bp

 

You know who I am... we fly with and against each other all the time...

 

- Gerrik/Brèn/Jordinn

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Read the OP. I specifically asked (told) you not to post this.

 

Stop being... you.

 

Check your attitude at the login, because in a FORUM, you converse about multiple sides. I have no remorse for people like you not utilizing the same tactics as those advanced groups who're calling out players and alerting squadmates when to switch sats and then have an issue with fairness... But in game VoIP would not be nearly as effective as people learning to play and recognize the proper situational awareness. Here's why:

 

You'e never going to win against an organized group with pugs, unless they're all vets who have a clue, and even then, you're still proposing something entirely irrelevant (the implementation of in-game VoIP). You get beat - acknowledge that the outcome could be drastically different if you want to queue with people who you know are decent players, but you chose not to and enjoy the solo queue. You do you dude, but VoIP is not why specific players keep winning - it's because they're good and they happen to be enjoy breaking the silence while waiting.

 

Giving pugs a "I need heal" alert would be bad, or bringing up the map and right clicking it to send an alert across the team's minimap would be a decent proposal. Those would be easier and more worthwhile, because the whole theory behind this is that pugs can't compete with premades.... They aren't supposed to be able to - they're utilizing tactics just by forming with players who you trust and eventually learn your style the same way you learn theirs, but that doesn't mean VoIP is magically going to let you compete 1v4.

 

So to sum up

+ Give pugs better communication techniques such as the right click on map / rose / "x,y,z for heals, ammo, change sats, etc. Something simple and text based would suffice. Considering you have no actual statistics to explain why this is "needed", it's just an opinion thread.

+ VoIP is used for advanced strategy. Breaking groups into a ranked / unranked mode would go further than adding VoIP because you'd be separating players based on how they want to play instead of trying to give inexperienced players a crutch that they won't know how to properly utilize anyway

+ You can download a VoIP and get a group together - you're not going to que solo and expect to take on a group actually using VoIP to it's fullest. Most groups I've been in don't, and I use all 3 of the major VoIPs. Only 1 group I know of runs like that, and more freakin power to them. The technology is already available - utilizing it isn't difficult, nor is changing your mentality about grouping and taking down a group of good pilots by yourself (because that's what happens.

+ Your opinions are just as valid as mine, but until you own the IP rights to make this game and manage the forums, you can't tell anybody anything about how they conduct themselves. People aren't going to agree with you and have just as much right to post a counter argument to your beliefs. My beliefrather they spend time on new ops and more gameplay features or a matchmaking so the groups don't have to play with the players that want to solo que (ergo ranked).

 

Sum up of the sum up:

Until you have empirical evidence supporting the need for such an implementation, I'm going to continue to refute this notion. So I ask you, show me the evidence as to why in-game VoIP and only in-game VoIP is the best way to resolve the matchmaking imbalance.

Edited by SammyGStatus
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I've really been wondering for quite a while now... Why does anyone even bother responding to that whiner? He's been singing the same song that has no common sense nor any arguments for months now. BW certainly isn't dumb enough to ban premades so his pointless whining is just that: pointless whining. As for you General_Whiner: go play something in single player, oh but wait, there's AI ganging up on you there, is that unfair too?

 

If in-game VOIP was implemented, it would be used for a very short while, until decent players get tired of listening to raging 13 year olds and turned it off. Something like that rose would be great, Americas Army had it and there was almost no problems with it. Simple solution to spam is a temp chat ban for spammers, WoW had that and it worked pretty good (annoying when you're trying to link DPS from a 25man, but oh well).

Edited by Asbetos
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Who would think a guy named Asbestos would post flamebait ?

 

Anyhow as much as I would like to see an improved metaphor for the ingame communication system, we probably won't get that. Doing that well takes major effort, voip is probably easier because existing solutions could be leveraged.

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<snip>

Sum up of the sum up:

Until you have empirical evidence supporting the need for such an implementation, I'm going to continue to refute this notion. So I ask you, show me the evidence as to why in-game VoIP and only in-game VoIP is the best way to resolve the matchmaking imbalance.

 

My emperical evidence:

 

http://aisthesis.shivtr.com/gallery_images/706233

 

Of course you refute this notion, you don't want a level playing field...

 

I never claimed that having built in VOIP would be the only thing needed to beat a premade, I said it would help level things.

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My emperical evidence:

 

http://aisthesis.shivtr.com/gallery_images/706233

 

Of course you refute this notion, you don't want a level playing field...

 

I never claimed that having built in VOIP would be the only thing needed to beat a premade, I said it would help level things.

 

Empirical evidence is numbers, not chat discussions. Further, VoIP definitely can level the playing field for those that chose to use it, because they can use it already. The out of game options take 2 seconds to download, 2 seconds to install, and two more seconds to configre ur mic / connect to a server.

 

Imagine if we had VoIP in game - BW doesn't supply a mic, so that means you're losing at least a reasonable amount of people from the pool already, not including the aspect that some people don't want to talk over the internet. Further, the use of VoIP isn't going to help if the pilots don't know what they're doing in the first place.

 

Premades can be overcome by your own premades, but asking pugs in a pick up match to use in game VoIP isn't going to level the field as much as joining a gsf guild or finding a group of players to play with. Pugs with words will not overcome tried and true tactics and coordination. I know where my guildmates are going for sats as soon as we see the word domination. That allows for flexibility. Do think Johnny 2-ship in his 12th match is going to instinctively know to go for the bombers? Or even has a proper loadout that optimizes his set up? I doubt it :/

 

You want to level the playing field, and I do too. Let's have ranked ques and unranked ques. I'd be willing to wait a bit for a ranked match. That's what the GTN is for anyways

Edited by SammyGStatus
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Empirical evidence is numbers, not chat discussions. Further, VoIP definitely can level the playing field for those that chose to use it, because they can use it already. The out of game options take 2 seconds to download, 2 seconds to install, and two more seconds to configre ur mic / connect to a server.

 

Well going past that the install and configure is considerably more time than 2 seconds, certainly longer than the window before a match start but not so long that people who are committed will feel any inconvenience, there is that whole matter of the server. The public servers are unusable, so it would mean an additional purchase for a private server and the information would have to be distributed. Which brings up another feature the game could use a copy text from chat feature.

 

Imagine if we had VoIP in game - BW doesn't supply a mic, so that means you're losing at least a reasonable amount of people from the pool already, not including the aspect that some people don't want to talk over the internet. Further, the use of VoIP isn't going to help if the pilots don't know what they're doing in the first place.

 

This is a much more legitimate concern in my eyes. From what I have seen EA/BW has done a very good job of having a recommended spec actually being a good spec for this game. I give them points for this because many game companies will publish completely unrealistic system specs for their games which turns their sales into little more than bait and switch. I can easily see people getting upset about a microphone requirement that was never advertised.

 

I do have to disagree about the voip not helping even if the pilots don't know what they are doing. It's a great educational tool and would add much to the enjoyment of people that like to help new pilots. The chat interface is incredibly frustrating to use in combat. This forces helping new pilots to out of match methods and referring people to forums.

 

Premades can be overcome by your own premades, but asking pugs in a pick up match to use in game VoIP isn't going to level the field as much as joining a gsf guild or finding a group of players to play with. Pugs with words will not overcome tried and true tactics and coordination. I know where my guildmates are going for sats as soon as we see the word domination. That allows for flexibility. Do think Johnny 2-ship in his 12th match is going to instinctively know to go for the bombers? Or even has a proper loadout that optimizes his set up? I doubt it :/

 

You want to level the playing field, and I do too. Let's have ranked ques and unranked ques. I'd be willing to wait a bit for a ranked match. That's what the GTN is for anyways

 

Separate queues is an entirely discussion. Quite frankly, I stand by the idea of a queue solo please don't place me against premades queue option where whoever used it would have the lowest priority to get a match. While I think that premades having a priority position in queues (Is there any actual evidence this is fact and not just speculation ?) is a horrible idea (it lets groups that do damage to the community, do more damage faster), the ability to opt away from them would make the game more enjoyable for the bulk of the players and maybe allow it to grow.

Edited by General_Brass
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You know who I am... we fly with and against each other all the time...

 

- Gerrik/Brèn/Jordinn

 

Nooooooooooo... I fly with and against piles of pixels. I don't know a single pilot. Your spaceship on the screen, to me, is not a representation of who's flying it.

 

I don't know you, so no free labor. My tech rate, however, is quite reasonable. -bp

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Separate queues is an entirely discussion. Quite frankly, I stand by the idea of a queue solo please don't place me against premades queue option where whoever used it would have the lowest priority to get a match. While I think that premades having a priority position in queues (Is there any actual evidence this is fact and not just speculation ?) is a horrible idea (it lets groups that do damage to the community, do more damage faster), the ability to opt away from them would make the game more enjoyable for the bulk of the players and maybe allow it to grow.

 

This is where the becomes a break down though - if they had solo que vs group que, what's to stop the groups from joining their normal VoIP and queuing at the same time? Ranked vs unranked is a more practical way of fixing the matchmaking.

 

A better solution than either of these would be to just improve the tutorial to include an AI opponent so players can actually learn without having to go against good players and get discouraged. Including VoIP would be less important than doing something along those lines that would actually better players, and people that want to learn can ask and people can join the VoIPs of others (I think we're all pretty open about our server info, so cost isn't as much of a factor, especially when factoring in how the end-game raiding groups require a VoIP and some of them GSF). I doubt either will happen, but voIp if developed, BW would be using resources better allocated to decreasing the learning curve via a no stress practice arean

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This is where the becomes a break down though - if they had solo que vs group que, what's to stop the groups from joining their normal VoIP and queuing at the same time? Ranked vs unranked is a more practical way of fixing the matchmaking.

 

Well presumably you are going to have the same kinds of measures going on that stop people syncing queues for ground PvP. Either way a 4v4 mode is really needed for this game no matter what. I am not aware of any server where the game just doesn't shut down for extended periods because there aren't enough people to sustain the current modes.

 

A better solution than either of these would be to just improve the tutorial to include an AI opponent so players can actually learn without having to go against good players and get discouraged. Including VoIP would be less important than doing something along those lines that would actually better players, and people that want to learn can ask and people can join the VoIPs of others (I think we're all pretty open about our server info, so cost isn't as much of a factor, especially when factoring in how the end-game raiding groups require a VoIP and some of them GSF). I doubt either will happen, but voIp if developed, BW would be using resources better allocated to decreasing the learning curve via a no stress practice arean

 

A better tutorial is something that is needed no matter what else is done.

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Premades make themselves the boogey men, and the most people do OK without it ? yes they do ok without it as long as the other side isn't using it either.

 

Just for reference, the big things people complain about in terms of game balance, the walls of gunships/bomber balls/bomber stacks are from premades and the biggest balance problems those with voip to coordinate the strategy.

 

I gave an example of another game I play-Titanfall- which has VOIP in the system already. Most people do not use it.

 

You chopped up what I said.

 

Balancing is on the GSF team to adjust. It will never been "100% perfect". I'm well aware of the the balancing problems since I've had to deal with them myself. This discussion is whether or not VOIP needs to be automatically into SWTOR. My response was no it doesn't.

 

Stick to the script.

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