Aelanis Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) lol tell that to mara in carnage spec. i made a video montage on youtube of how insane their crits are (20k crit on a boss once pve) and it happens all the time. so for assassin critting like that all the time i don't see it far fech. also lighting sorcs can still pull out 3.9-4k dps and that is a burst spec. I've done the math, but may have lost it in a computer transfer. If you want, I can prove it to you. And by "all the time," I think you mean every 9ish seconds. I'd also really like to see the boss they pulled a 20k crit on, because as far as I can tell, the stars have to align perfectly for that to happen. The Watchman Sentinel in my raid group has laid claim to an 18.3k Merciless Slash on Hard Mode Grobthok, but he had double relics procced, adrenal, zen, inspiration and an armor debuff on the boss when it happened, along with the obligatory 6 stacks of Juyo form. Those starts don't align all that well. Edited June 26, 2014 by Aelanis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenofnine Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I've done the math, but may have lost it in a computer transfer. If you want, I can prove it to you. And by "all the time," I think you mean every 9ish seconds. I'd also really like to see the boss they pulled a 20k crit on, because as far as I can tell, the stars have to align perfectly for that to happen. The Watchman Sentinel in my raid group has laid claim to an 18.3k Merciless Slash on Hard Mode Grobthok, but he had double relics procced, adrenal, zen, inspiration and an armor debuff on the boss when it happened, along with the obligatory 6 stacks of Juyo form. Those starts don't align all that well. i was the one who did the video and i didn't get the 20k crit on video, but here the video i posted. some of it was blood thirst and other stuff proc'ed, other times it was just going in there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ETw9XLlWls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelanis Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 i was the one who did the video and i didn't get the 20k crit on video, but here the video i posted. some of it was blood thirst and other stuff proc'ed, other times it was just going in there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ETw9XLlWls Corruptor Zero was the only boss fight in there. Pulling those kinds of hits on trash or flashpoint bosses isn't really very impressive. And those aren't 20k sweeps, that's Carnage hitting during its burst window, and landing multiple hits at once, when it breaks 16k. Carnage pays for that by doing pitiful damage outside of those windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenofnine Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Corruptor Zero was the only boss fight in there. Pulling those kinds of hits on trash or flashpoint bosses isn't really very impressive. And those aren't 20k sweeps, that's Carnage hitting during its burst window, and landing multiple hits at once, when it breaks 16k. Carnage pays for that by doing pitiful damage outside of those windows. the whole point i was making was that carnage spec hits hard so if they did the auto crit to maul it would help it. also that was only a 3 min video and i been playing carnage spec for 6 months so there was a ton more i could of Frapsed. also the pitful damage out side of gore window must not be to bad if people in 2.7 was doing 3.8k dps with it. not trying to get into a numbers argument here as i really suck at math, the whole thread is about helping out deception, a spec i love so anything the dev do to try and help i welcome it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelanis Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 the whole point i was making was that carnage spec hits hard so if they did the auto crit to maul it would help it. also that was only a 3 min video and i been playing carnage spec for 6 months so there was a ton more i could of Frapsed. also the pitful damage out side of gore window must not be to bad if people in 2.7 was doing 3.8k dps with it. not trying to get into a numbers argument here as i really suck at math, the whole thread is about helping out deception, a spec i love so anything the dev do to try and help i welcome it I'm just going to show you the math for why double auto-crits would go too far. But first: Carnage windows come every ~20 seconds and last for 9 total seconds. So about 1/3 up time. Deception functions differently, though, in that each Shock can hit decently hard, and Maul and Discharge can wreck things when they crit, and between the three, you aren't going more than 4.5 seconds without a possible big hitter. Anyway, the math: The top Infiltration parse belongs to Buffshadows (now Happyshadow), with a dps of 3764 and a surge of 75.60%. His Shadow Strike had a 60% crit rate and his Force Breach had a 51.85% crit rate, and they accounted for 733.97 and 672.08 dps respectively. If you turn them both into autocrits, that jumps them to 923.75 and 918.23 dps respectively, and would have pushed his dps up to 4199.99. Now, while you may say that he has done better in Balance since, he didn't have either relic, nor did he have his main hand. The gear difference was significant, and he could have pushed much higher than 4.2k dps in Infiltration with his new gear. Looking at it compared to all other classes, that parse alone would take 5th place overall, beating out Sorcerers, Juggernauts,Vanguards and Gunslingers. Those parses were also all sustained specs, not burst specs, and they're all in significantly better gear than Buffshadows was in. In short: it would be absolutely ludicrous for the spec to deal so much damage. And it doesn't matter if you weren't trying to get into a numbers argument: this whole thread is a by-the-numbers thread, and by the numbers, auto-crit Maul + auot-crit Discharge is just too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griad Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I'm just going to show you the math for why double auto-crits would go too far. But first: Carnage windows come every ~20 seconds and last for 9 total seconds. So about 1/3 up time. Deception functions differently, though, in that each Shock can hit decently hard, and Maul and Discharge can wreck things when they crit, and between the three, you aren't going more than 4.5 seconds without a possible big hitter. Anyway, the math: The top Infiltration parse belongs to Buffshadows (now Happyshadow), with a dps of 3764 and a surge of 75.60%. His Shadow Strike had a 60% crit rate and his Force Breach had a 51.85% crit rate, and they accounted for 733.97 and 672.08 dps respectively. If you turn them both into autocrits, that jumps them to 923.75 and 918.23 dps respectively, and would have pushed his dps up to 4199.99. Now, while you may say that he has done better in Balance since, he didn't have either relic, nor did he have his main hand. The gear difference was significant, and he could have pushed much higher than 4.2k dps in Infiltration with his new gear. Looking at it compared to all other classes, that parse alone would take 5th place overall, beating out Sorcerers, Juggernauts,Vanguards and Gunslingers. Those parses were also all sustained specs, not burst specs, and they're all in significantly better gear than Buffshadows was in. In short: it would be absolutely ludicrous for the spec to deal so much damage. And it doesn't matter if you weren't trying to get into a numbers argument: this whole thread is a by-the-numbers thread, and by the numbers, auto-crit Maul + auot-crit Discharge is just too much. I agree it's over the top but wouldn't it be glorious that for a brief time hehe, I still think that a small dot from 3 stacks of discharge would put us in a nice spot some kind of lingering discharge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatheroftheyear Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I'm just going to show you the math for why double auto-crits would go too far. But first: Carnage windows come every ~20 seconds and last for 9 total seconds. So about 1/3 up time. Deception functions differently, though, in that each Shock can hit decently hard, and Maul and Discharge can wreck things when they crit, and between the three, you aren't going more than 4.5 seconds without a possible big hitter. Anyway, the math: The top Infiltration parse belongs to Buffshadows (now Happyshadow), with a dps of 3764 and a surge of 75.60%. His Shadow Strike had a 60% crit rate and his Force Breach had a 51.85% crit rate, and they accounted for 733.97 and 672.08 dps respectively. If you turn them both into autocrits, that jumps them to 923.75 and 918.23 dps respectively, and would have pushed his dps up to 4199.99. Now, while you may say that he has done better in Balance since, he didn't have either relic, nor did he have his main hand. The gear difference was significant, and he could have pushed much higher than 4.2k dps in Infiltration with his new gear. Looking at it compared to all other classes, that parse alone would take 5th place overall, beating out Sorcerers, Juggernauts,Vanguards and Gunslingers. Those parses were also all sustained specs, not burst specs, and they're all in significantly better gear than Buffshadows was in. In short: it would be absolutely ludicrous for the spec to deal so much damage. And it doesn't matter if you weren't trying to get into a numbers argument: this whole thread is a by-the-numbers thread, and by the numbers, auto-crit Maul + auot-crit Discharge is just too much. I absolutely agree, autocrit on both of these abilities is FAR too much. Also, that is an underestimate of the DPS increase because it doesn't account for the fact that Exploitative Strikes will have better uptime as a result of the Discharge crits. If Maul is going to be an autocrit, it is probably a good idea to combine it with an increase in Duplicity consistency. The best way to do this, in my opinion, is to make Duplicity have a 100% proc chance and a 12s ICD. This Duplicity change alone mostly affects consistency, and isn't a significant buff. Below is a 250,000 parse simulation result demonstrating this, and combining it with the Maul autocrit. Live: 100% DPS: Min = 3000.35 Avg = 3349.12 Max = 3771.49 99% DPS: Min = 3151.98 Avg = 3349.12 Max = 3570.92 95% DPS: Min = 3205.26 Avg = 3349.12 Max = 3505.25 90% DPS: Min = 3236.25 Avg = 3349.12 Max = 3469.58 Duplicity change only: 100% DPS: Min = 3025.60 Avg = 3366.94 Max = 3828.26 99% DPS: Min = 3170.44 Avg = 3366.94 Max = 3587.96 95% DPS: Min = 3221.48 Avg = 3366.94 Max = 3524.47 90% DPS: Min = 3254.74 Avg = 3366.94 Max = 3486.34 Duplicity change + Maul autocrit: 100% DPS: Min = 3327.20 Avg = 3656.31 Max = 4041.16 99% DPS: Min = 3473.36 Avg = 3656.31 Max = 3858.49 95% DPS: Min = 3532.04 Avg = 3656.31 Max = 3788.87 90% DPS: Min = 3561.08 Avg = 3656.31 Max = 3762.19 http://jedi95.com/images/dps_distribution6.png http://jedi95.com/images/dps_scaling6.png http://jedi95.com/images/dps_scaling_percent6.png Notes: The charts above are comparing live against Duplicity+Maul changes. The results were obtained using my Deception simulator. Code can be found here The gear used in these examples is BiS Dread Forged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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