Do Shadow tanks get a 'closer'?

[tharbison]

I'm leveling a Shadow tank, and wondering if I'll ever get a closer? I think Guardians get some type of 'force leap', and Vanguards get something like 'storm' or 'rush'...but at level 18, all I have is force speed. Do Shadows get anything else to close the gap on a mob to start combat?

[khsolo]

I'm leveling a Shadow tank, and wondering if I'll ever get a closer? I think Guardians get some type of 'force leap', and Vanguards get something like 'storm' or 'rush'...but at level 18, all I have is force speed. Do Shadows get anything else to close the gap on a mob to start combat?

 

You get a pull and force speed

[JouerTue]

pull is a pull so a closer with one mob, and the force speed and the stealth are natural closers..

[tharbison]

ok. Guess I was hoping for something else. Force speed is fine, but, unlike a Guardian's 'force leap' or Vanguards 'storm' it doesn't deal any damage so you need to follow it up with something. That's fine, I was just hoping they'd get something else.

[SW_display_name]

Every Tank needs to follow up your gapcloser with something in PvE.

 

IIRC Force Speed isn't on the GCD (I use this ability all the time, but I tend to be oblivious to tiny details like this) so your ability to follow up with "opener" damage isn't really affected.

 

Not to mention that you can already have some of your highest-threat actions (Shock, Discharge, Wither ... or um... whatever dirt-throwing equivalents Shadows use) unloading at 10yds, which is quite a long range for opening as tank.

 

If you're really concerned about opening Threat at early levels (pre-Wither) you can spec into Madness (Balance?) to Death Field (uh... Mud Field? Whatever Shadows do...) for 30yd ranged burst to start pulls.

 

PS

Vanguards don't get Storm until minimum level 30, so you actually have them beaten soundly on gapclosers at level 18.

Edited May 19, 2014 by SW_display_name

[tharbison]

Good info, thanks. Even at lvl 19 I've been impressed with the Shadow's threat generation. Without even trying I tend to get aggro from most mobs. Then when I lay on the added threat abilities just TRY to get threat from me

[Halinalle]

(uh... Mud Field? Whatever Shadows do...)

 

I see a lot of Jedi hate in this one.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/9xW6YaQ/force-in-balance

 

But the point is that it's useless for low level tanks because you have to put so many points in Balance tree.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Halinalle

[SW_display_name]

I see a lot of Jedi hate in this one.

No, you see someone mostly-unfamiliar with Shadows typing on their phone and aware that Consulars are designed around throwing rocks.

 

But the point is that it's useless for low level tanks because you have to put so many points in Balance tree.

Force in Balance

• Level Required: 20-22 (depending on taking Force cost reduction)
  
• Useless points spent: 1, zero if you switch to Lightning Charge (Force Technique?) when soloing
  

 

Slow Time

• Level Required: 45
  
• Useless points spent: More-or-less zero
  

 

It's not "useless for low level tanks" because it gives you a burst opener 25 (!!) levels earlier than the Darkness (Kinetic?) tree (which is exactly what low level tanks are most likely to need), and even being full DPS spec in Dark Charge (Combat? something? Shadows are weird...) — gimpy though it is — is adequate for tanking leveling FPs until about Red Reaper (but Red Reaper is Red Reaper).

 

Dark Discharge is "okay" at early levels for initial Threat, and I'm OCD about tabbing around mobs so, I would never go down Madness/Balance personally while leveling (especially since I have Field Respec to swap between Tank & DPS as needed).

 

But the difference between Darkness and Madness in the 20s and early 30s is negligible — you don't need the tank tree bonuses to Tank (if you're awake and in Tank Stance), and you definitely don't need Dark Ward / Earth Shield.

 

It's an option — if you're uncomfortable with opening threat, the DPS AoE lets you snag wide-area initial burst Threat from a distance no DPS can jump you on. It's a crutch, but that's what crutches are for — helping you along.

 

Your gameplay doesn't change much once you swap to Wither/Slow since you're basically doing the same thing (from closer distance), so it's not really even encouraging 'bad habits'.

 

I will say:

• Do not Tank as Infiltration, it's just worse at everything for Tanking except maybe short-term DR via Masked Assault
  
• Don't spec deeper into Balance than necessary for the AoE burst, since you're increasingly wasting points if you're only interested in Tanking
  
• Don't do this at late or max levels — once you have enough points for Wither / Slow Time (45) G7FO* of the DPS tree while tanking
  
• This is a crutch, like many leveling / hybrid gimmicks — use it while you're getting comfortable with Sin/Shadow tanking, ideally dump it as soon as you're confident relying on just Discharge / Force Breach for initial snag + tabbing around with ST
  

 

Overall I'd just rather people be aware and creative while leveling — especially with Field Respec (the best use of Credits / CC in the entire game) — rather than feel hamstrung into cookiecutter builds earlier than necessary (when the cookie doesn't even cut correctly).

Edited May 20, 2014 by SW_display_name

[Whojoo]

Force Speed and Force Pull.

Force Speed has its pros and cons vs leaps

Pros

- Can go anywhere, not limited to a target's position. So you can also run from mechanics.

- Off the GCD so you don't have to wait 1.5 seconds to use it and you don't have to wait 1.5 seconds after using it.

 

Cons

- Less distance covered (30 vs 20-25ish?).

- Longer cooldown (right???).

 

I take Force Speed over a leap every single time just for the first mentioned advantage.

Not saying leap is bad, I just prefer Force Speed

 

Death Field (uh... Mud Field? Whatever Shadows do...)

 

Whahahaha nice! xD Took me a few minutes to stop laughing

[SW_display_name]

- Longer cooldown (right???).

Baseline, you can talent it down via Infiltration tree first-tier for 1 or 2 points to get it down to 15 seconds.

 

But then Juggs have a proc that reduces the Charge CD when they're attacked, so they probably still have the shortest-CD gapcloser when dealing with trash (they also need it more).

[Whojoo]

Baseline, you can talent it down via Infiltration tree first-tier for 1 or 2 points to get it down to 15 seconds.

 

But then Juggs have a proc that reduces the Charge CD when they're attacked, so they probably still have the shortest-CD gapcloser when dealing with trash (they also need it more).

 

still is a 3 seconds disadvantage right? or ... crap sorry, am used to annihilation/watchman leap but that is reduced cooldown

[Halinalle]

It's not "useless for low level tanks" because it gives you a burst opener 25 (!!) levels earlier than the Darkness (Kinetic?) tree (which is exactly what low level tanks are most likely to need), and even being full DPS spec in Dark Charge (Combat? something? Shadows are weird...) — gimpy though it is — is adequate for tanking leveling FPs until about Red Reaper (but Red Reaper is Red Reaper).

 

And now calculate: after getting Mud Field() how long it will take for you to get Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward which is the ability you should get as fast as possible as a tank.

 

Discharge/Force Breach and Lacerate/Whirling Blow should be enough for low level tanks.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Halinalle

[SW_display_name]

And now calculate: after getting Mud Field() how long it will take for you to get Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward which is the ability you should get as fast as possible as a tank.

In real content, yes.

 

In KDY / Leveling FPs — no. Dark Ward is "neat" but irrelevant, just like Juggs & PTs can "tank" just by switching to Tank stance while leveling if they want to spec DPS.

 

What's 'dangerous' in leveling FPs is aggro going all over, because this confuses new / undergeared / underskilled / under-ability'd healers and inflicts pack damage on people who aren't in Tank stances or not using defensive CDs. Especially, it usually leads to the Healer struggling to heal themselves.

 

You're correct that Discharge/Breach "should" be enough with tabbing around, but then so would Lacerate if they deleted Discharge — a motivated Tank could hold aggro even if you deleted everything but Thrash, it would just be a PITA.

 

But what "should" be enough isn't always what "is" and for people struggling to get the hang of aggro, Field / FiB is a super-easy crutch tool which can make controlling big packs (especially keeping them off Healer) much easier at early levels.

 

The difference between having Dark Ward up and not, in content like Mando Raiders or Cademimu or BP, is ~irrelevant. Yes, ideally you should do it to get into Good Habits™ for level ~45-55 but the presence or lack of it is not what's killing you at level 32.

[Halinalle]

You're correct that Discharge/Breach "should" be enough with tabbing around, but then so would Lacerate if they deleted Discharge — a motivated Tank could hold aggro even if you deleted everything but Thrash, it would just be a PITA.

 

Who needs to tab target when abilities in question are AoE?

 

Force Speed has its pros and cons vs leaps

Pros

- Can go anywhere, not limited to a target's position. So you can also run from mechanics.

- Off the GCD so you don't have to wait 1.5 seconds to use it and you don't have to wait 1.5 seconds after using it.

 

As tank spec you also have access to Mind Over Matter/Disjunction.

http://www.torhead.com/ability/f4LDg0l/mind-over-matter

Edited May 21, 2014 by Halinalle

[SW_display_name]

Who needs to tab target when abilities in question are AoE?

Because walking up to a spread pull, pushing Discharge at a random enemy, and then derptunneling will make your Healer dislike you.