Damage Reduction Uncoupled from Armor

[DamascusAdontise]

So there has been a lot of discussion lately about armor ignore. One of the things that has always bugged me about armor ignore is that it negates completely the Deflection Armor component (Damage Reduction).

 

My idea to right this wrong is to make Deflection Armor a flat percentage. Meaning that it will absorb / reduce incoming damage regardless of armor value. This IMO could potentially make the Deflection Armor defensive options viable, without altering any of the weapons. It also serves to allow AI to work on nodes, mines, and drones while giving players an option to avoid it with components.

 

To be Clear: I am talking about the deflection armor component and how the "damage reduction" aspect of it should not be affected by armor ignore.

 

Thoughts // concerns?

Edited May 15, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[Verain]

What do you mean?

 

On live, everything that reduces damage by a percentage is damage reduction, and that is the same thing as armor.

 

 

What do you mean uncouple? Which would be which?

[DamascusAdontise]

this might be a misunderstanding on my part of the way "damage reduction aka deflection armor" works in the armor component.

 

There are three options:

 

more armor (reinforced armor)

more evasion (lightweight armor)

more damage reduction (deflection armor)

 

my understanding was that armor ignore affects both RA and DA. I was positing that in essence the game is treating damage reduction as "extra armor" thus negating it as well with AI.

 

What I was saying is that they should decouple (separate) damage reduction (the x percent from DA) from armor so that it is not affected by armor ignore. (in essence making DA a flat "stops x damage" regardless of physical armor value)

 

Like I said this could be complete ignorance on my part, and I apologize if so.

Edited May 15, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[Drakkolich]

Armor = Damage Reduction , there is no difference, if you want certain damage reduction components or the damage reduction that comes on its own on every ship but scout to be considered something else that would work. I just dont see why you would want to make "armor" or "damage reduction" more complicated.

[DamascusAdontise]

Didn't see it as more complicated when I was forming the thought. I understand what your saying about armor and "deflection" serving a similar purpose (reducing damage) but IMO they go about it different ways:

 

Armor is a finite number, and its destroyed with damage.

 

Damage reduction should (and hopefully, currently does) provide a consistent reduction in damage regardless of armor. So in essence if someone has "damage reduction" the damage to your hull is always reduced by x percent. So in this way, AI is ignoring your armor but still reduced by x percent (damage reduction)

 

Is this how it works currently?

 

So, do people say that AI makes DR worthless since were talking x percent reduction and no armor? (which is a minimal gain compared to evasion) Or is it literally ignoring the damage reduction entirely?

 

IMO:

 

Deflection Armor (the damage reduction part) should reduce damage without reducing armor, in essence keeping x % damage from ever touching your hull

 

Armor is layers of material that is destroyed upon damage

 

 

(Edit: I see why the OP was confusing and made some changes, I was not talking about generic damage reduction aka everything that reduces damage. I was talking about the deflection armor component, and wondering why it is also affected by armor ignore)

Edited May 15, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Didn't see it as more complicated when I was forming the thought. I understand what your saying about armor and "deflection" serving a similar purpose (reducing damage) but IMO they go about it different ways:

 

Armor is a finite number, and its destroyed with damage.

 

Damage reduction should (and hopefully, currently does) provide a consistent reduction in damage regardless of armor. So in essence if someone has "damage reduction" the damage to your hull is always reduced by x percent. So in this way, AI is ignoring your armor but still reduced by x percent (damage reduction)

 

Is this how it works currently?

 

So, do people say that AI makes DR worthless since were talking x percent reduction and no armor? (which is a minimal gain compared to evasion) Or is it literally ignoring the damage reduction entirely?

 

As another poster said Damage reduction (DR) already reduces the damage to your hull by X percent. Armor ignore/penetration (AP) bypasses the DR stat NOT the armor component. So for example on a Star Guard (Type 1 striker) which lacks an armor component but you can stack up to 10% DR (combining your 5% base stat with the 5% crew passive) is still bypassed by AP.

 

I think you may be confusing AP with the idea that it bypasses the armor component rather than the DR stat. What you're proposing is quite literally impossible unless they created a completely separate stat for DR from the armor component (which would probably be way more of a hassle to code than it would be worth).

 

EDIT: I think you cleared up what you were getting at with your edit.

 

My one concern would be how it would blend with things like charged plating's active ability. If it qualified a unbypassable that could rapidly lead it to be the new DField of pre-2.6 days. Likewise if it didn't blend I'm not sure the usefulness of charged plating would go up by much since it would still be fairly vulnerable to enemy weapons in a way other shield components aren't.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar

[DamascusAdontise]

I think i Understand now, damage reduction from the deflection armor component and companions is innately related to armor. The two are inseparable, thus my original interpretation / confusion about DR is why this is so facked. Thank you, and carry on =)

 

(your right, in my imagining it would be a separate stat)

Edited May 15, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[Verain]

this might be a misunderstanding on my part of the way "damage reduction aka deflection armor" works in the armor component.

 

There are three options:

 

more armor (reinforced armor)

more evasion (lightweight armor)

more damage reduction (deflection armor)

 

my understanding was that armor ignore affects both RA and DA.

 

 

I think you get it, but in case someone else is confused:

 

Armor ignore effects ignore things that reduce damage done by a percent. The fact that an armor component does this is coincidental.

 

Armor ignore has no effect on evasion or health armors. It ignores entirely deflection armor, the 9% crew passive, the 5% base reduction of strikes and gunships, the 10% base reduction of bombers, the 30% nullify, and the percent reduction of charged plating.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Verain

[Altheran]

Armor ignore has no effect on evasion or health armors. It ignores entirely deflection armor, the 9% crew passive, the 5% base reduction of strikes and gunships, the 10% base reduction of bombers, the 30% nullify, and the percent reduction of charged plating.

 

Which reminds me that maybe I should do a thread advocating that Charged Plating (and maybe Nullify) should not be DR buffs but damage modifiers that change values independently or Armor and Armor Ignoring, just like Damage overcharge do on the attacker side...

 

I think it's time that Charged Plating gets some love.

[Verain]

Charged plating is an integral part of the current meta. Any charged plating buffs would likely have to go hand in hand with some nerfs- aka, it's not ok for charged plating to be 99% resistance to quad lasers while still also functioning against heavies.

 

 

For this reason I think we are unlikely to see changes- any changes would essentially remake charged plating entirely, along with armor penetration. Not that such a thing couldn't be done- it would just be a lot of work.

[Kuciwalker]

The easy answer would be to make charge plating 6/10 instead of 15/19.

[Altheran]

Charged plating is an integral part of the current meta. Any charged plating buffs would likely have to go hand in hand with some nerfs- aka, it's not ok for charged plating to be 99% resistance to quad lasers while still also functioning against heavies.

 

 

For this reason I think we are unlikely to see changes- any changes would essentially remake charged plating entirely, along with armor penetration. Not that such a thing couldn't be done- it would just be a lot of work.

Sure, it would need to change entirely... But that's exactly what I'd like to propose. I want to change its fundamental mechanic so that its not a DR modifier at all but another damage modifier.

 

I don't think it would need so much work. This kind of protection already exist in ground game, so it's something that the engine supports for sure.

Basically, I'd like Charged Plating to move from working like Troopers' Reactive Shield to Shadows' Shadow Respite. The latter applies a 25% DR after (or before) the effect from usual DR/Armor pierce duo is calculated. With the way this kind of buff works, its impossible to bypass it, and as long as DR isn't already 100% damage will always get through it. (With the highest DR build at the moment, non-piercing weapons would have 24.4% of their damage intact)

 

Obviously, it would also need some other changes like :

- going away from the bleedthrough which would be poisonous without the 90+% of DR like now (probably reducing Shield regen instead)

- adjustment of the effect value since it would allow to mitigate Proton-like weapons (for a 45-50% effect instead of 60%, I guess)

- duration and CD (which would likely become alike Distortion Field).

That's just a list of examples, though that's what I recommend...

 

In the end it would profoundly change the component, I'm aware or this, but I hope it will make it more viable without changing how it's used, a.k.a. "I'll facetank right now"

 

EDIT : ugh... I just realized that I spilt everything here instead of doing a thread.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Altheran

[Zoom_VI]

Basically, I'd like Charged Plating to move from working like Troopers' Reactive Shield to Shadows' Shadow Respite.

 

wat

 

Reactive shield and Shadows respite work exactly the same. They are both "flat" DR.

[Verain]

wat

 

Reactive shield and Shadows respite work exactly the same. They are both "flat" DR.

 

He means "stack multiplicatively" instead of "stack additively", I think.

 

Like if you have 40% damage reduction from A and 40% damage reduction from B, in most situations that would mean you figure out that the first thing means you take 60% of incoming damage, and so does the second, so you would take 0.6x0.6=.36 and therefore have 1-.36= 64%

 

 

But in this game, you would just add 40%+40% and get 80%. In this way, it's very possible to hit 100% essentially, and the moves really have to be balanced around the stacking of this- hence, presumably, the proliferation of "ignores all damage reduction".

[Altheran]

Exactly as Verain said. That's what I meant.

 

Unless they changed it at one time, Reactive Shield adds a value to DR, like Charged Plating now. If I'm wrong, then it means it used to work like that. I'm almost sure they changed it once, but I don't remember in which way it changed.

On the contrary, Shadow Respite doesn't but modifies the incoming damage on his own, on top of DR like Verain explained. The good part is that since its not related to DR, it can't be ignored by abilities that ignore DR.

 

EDIT - taking a look at the detailed effect on TORhead, we can see :

 

Reactive Shield : action - ModifyStat: =>1, AmountMin=>0.25, Stat=>Damage Reduction: Kinetic, AmountMax=>0.25

 

Masked assult (the upgrade of Shadow Respite) : action - ModifyStat: =>1, AmountMin=>-0.25, Stat=>Damage Received Modifier (Percentage), AmountMax=>-0.25

Edited May 16, 2014 by Altheran

[Kuciwalker]

wat

 

Reactive shield and Shadows respite work exactly the same. They are both "flat" DR.

 

No they don't. Try actually paying attention to your character sheet.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Zoom_VI]

No they don't. Try actually paying attention to your character sheet.

 

Hmm interesting, I never actually checked that before. In my defense I was misunderstanding what he was saying and thinking that he was implying that one worked like armor and the other didn't.

[Kuciwalker]

That's exactly what he was saying. Reactive shield does work like armor; the DR it provides is added directly to the DR provided by armor.

[Zoom_VI]

That's exactly what he was saying. Reactive shield does work like armor; the DR it provides is added directly to the DR provided by armor.

 

But armor pen talents do not effect Reactive Shield, which was what I was getting at.

[Altheran]

But armor pen talents do not effect Reactive Shield, which was what I was getting at.

 

It may, or it may not. In the ground game the values of armor pen are usually so low that it's hard to notice it working at all, let alone noticing if a CD like this one is cut by armor pen or not.

But considering that it directly adds to DR, it's fair to assume the armor pen will cut the into the freshly modifed DR and won't sort the sources of the value.

 

For what it means, since GSF seems to copy some of the ground game mechanics, it would tend to confirm it, although it's still not sure.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Altheran

[Zoom_VI]

It may, or it may not. In the ground game the values of armor pen are usually so low that it's hard to notice it working at all, let alone noticing if a CD like this one is cut by armor pen or not.

But considering that it directly adds to DR, it's fair to assume the armor pen will cut the into the freshly modifed DR and won't sort the sources of the value.

 

For what it means, since GSF seems to copy some of the ground game mechanics, it would tend to confirm it, although it's still not sure.

Considering I have never hit a trooper with RS up for more than 6k with precision slash/gore active, I'm pretty dang positive its immune. To my understanding anything that says "increase damage reduction" passive or otherwise is immune to armor penetration.

 

(also seriously?! "armor pen are usually so low" Have you never looked at how much armor pen is available in ground PvP? Its like candy. )

Edited May 16, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Kuciwalker]

But armor pen talents do not effect Reactive Shield, which was what I was getting at.

 

Except in the ground game you have an actual statistic called "armor", which contributes to your damage reduction. GSF does not have an "armor" statistic, it only has damage reduction. Ground game effects like Sundering Strike generally work by directly penalizing the base stat, not the derived stat.

[Zoom_VI]

Except in the ground game you have an actual statistic called "armor", which contributes to your damage reduction. GSF does not have an "armor" statistic, it only has damage reduction. Ground game effects like Sundering Strike generally work by directly penalizing the base stat, not the derived stat.

 

I know, that was the point.

 

(I think we are arguing the same thing but in different directions.)

 

carry on.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Altheran]

Considering I have never hit a trooper with RS up for more than 6k with precision slash/gore active, I'm pretty dang positive its immune. To my understanding anything that says "increase damage reduction" passive or otherwise is immune to armor penetration.

 

(also seriously?! "armor pen are usually so low" Have you never looked at how much armor pen is available in ground PvP? Its like candy. )

 

That's disturbing. I'd like to understand how you'd came to this conclusion but... what the heck is RS ? Nothing on a Marauder or Sentinel can be named "RS"...

 

And Armor Pen given like candy ? Apart from Gore, who have high armor pen ? Definitely not Shadows who can have 9% at most.

 

But hey, let's go back to GSF stuff.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Altheran

[Kuciwalker]

That's disturbing. I'd like to understand how you'd came to this conclusion but... what the heck is RS ? Nothing on a Marauder or Sentinel can be named "RS"...

 

PS : Armor Pen given like candy ? Apart from Gore, who have high armor pen ? Definitely not Shadows who can have 9% at most.

 

RS = Reactive Shield = a Trooper cooldown.