Guardians / Juggs, ED needs a tone down?

[Guiken]

Sounds like finally sins/shadows get own kinda counter class.

 

Tears of sins so sweet and delicious <3

 

Not just sin, PTs too, a "counter class" that counters all tank classes.Basically as immortal jug with dps gear we're able to smash every other tank spec with ease. And since we're this far into post launch tor a great many have all 3 classes and just switch to whatever is broken, which is why I just tank on my jug for the time being. Ultimately it would be best if all 3 could find a middle ground.

 

As for counter classes, those dot spec classes with elemental/internal were the "counter class" for tanks, strangely enough they're hurt the most by the ERD cooldown when fighting them as every tick triggers a possible critical heal proc from ERD.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Guiken

[Groncho]

Now that juggs/guardians are getting competitive guess who is crying about it?

[howieloader]

Very, very hard to kill. Yes, he can H2Full, from 30% to 100%, easy. Their SH a little OP i think, too much. They don't die when they in focus in 2 or 3 players. BTW Xinika what about sustained DMG to our sins/shadow in the middle tree?

 

If you and 2 other people can't kill a Jugg, it's time for you to unsub and uninstall...

[Pearlie]

The game needs to be balanced around common f*cking sense. If player A needs to do 80k damage to kill player B while player B needs to do 30k to kill player A and they do roughly the same damage then that is completely unbalanced. It's not rocket science, it is simple plus and minus.

 

In other words, you think the game needs to be balanced around 1v1 scenarios.

 

Long story short: no.

[Brantsavage]

FD/ED is fine why? Because Guardians/Jugs didn't have a panic button or real escape tool until now.

 

Maras/Sents have undying rage/guarded by the force and camouflage, Sins/Shadows have force cloak and phase walk, VGs/PTs have adrenaline rush/kolto overload which can be popped before combat.

 

FD/ED was not fine before patch 2.7 being the weakest DCD in the game and now people want to nerf it espically when the changes are still new? Give it some air first before giving in to rash decisions.

[Andrew_Past]

As I said before, it is very strong 1v1, but I want to put things into perspective. I have been doing group ranked every night this week. Earlier in the week I saw quite a few groups trying vengeance. However, from what i have seen I am now the only vengeance juggernaut to be still queueing consistently on pot5. Most of the other groups switched back to maras. My group has been mostly mara/juggernaut this week, and I am still the primary target against pressure and swap comps. We've won most of our games this week, but it never felt like it was because I was op. Most of our games were close, fun, and challenging. Edited April 17, 2014 by Andrew_Past

[Telaan]

As I said before, it is very strong 1v1, but I want to put things into perspective. I have been doing group ranked every night this week. Earlier in the week I saw quite a few groups trying vengeance. However, from what i have seen I am now the only vengeance juggernaut to be still queueing consistently on pot5. Most of the other groups switched back to maras. My group has been mostly mara/juggernaut this week, and I am still the primary target against pressure and swap comps. We've won most of our games this week, but it never felt like it was because I was op. Most of our games were close, fun, and challenging.

 

Don't waste your time with these people Andrew. Most have no idea what they're talking about, the rest are mad about not getting a free kill anymore. Regardless, it's mostly a cry more issue; especially considering the ranged **** fest brought by 2.7 in conjunction with rage/focus nerf.

[foxmob]

32k seems a bit much for a DPS / Tank class, doesn't it?

 

it's my understanding that tank classes should top out at about 70% health by combining medpacks with dcds. that's based on my toying around with a jugg's ED and adrenaline rush on the PT. not sure what the sin capabilities are, but iirc, they depend on a channel and some gunk on the ground? so it's a bit diff. if the tank's max hp is 40k, then 32k is a bit too high, but it's in the ball park. 5-6% too much?

[Guiken]

inot sure what the sin capabilities are, but iirc, they depend on a channel and some gunk on the ground?

 

Sins used to be able to heal themselves for 2% max health per channel of their force lightning after first building 3 stacks of harnessed darkness through wither/shock. So about every 10~12 seconds they could build up the channel. The channel then needed to be channeled within 10 meters of an enemy without being cced/knocked backed/mezzed etc. If the channel was broken early for any reason the stacks were simply lost and you started over. The assassins shelter increases healing by 5% for anyone in it. Additionally dark charge would proc a small heal (200ish) every 4.5 seconds.

 

That was completely gutted in 2.7 and instead that channel now grants up to a 4% DR if you maintain the buff through continuous channeling every 12 seconds or so and dark charge no longer provides any heal procs. The only healing left is overcharge saber which is 15% max health on a 2 minute cooldown, leaving the better defensive options in deception (middle tree) strangely enough.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Guiken

[sithBracer]

In other words, you think the game needs to be balanced around 1v1 scenarios.

 

Long story short: no.

 

... fine let me do it group based (for all the people who have no common sense like you).

 

If group A has 4 people who each need to have 80k damage done to them to die, and group B has 4 people who need 30k damage done to them to die, and each person on the group does roughly the same damage, then it is not balanced. Lets say each person can do 5K damage per GCD average thanks to burst and DCDs (it's usually not that high if there is a tank guarding, but w/e). If 3 people from group A focus one person from group B and 3 people from group B focus one person from group A. the person in group B will die in 2 GCDs, while the person that was focused on group A will survive with full health. This is not balance. The only way the people in group B have a chance to win, is if they play the exact same class as the people in group A. They are restricted from playing the class that they like because it just can't win-remember we are assuming almost equal skill, not that group A is full of window lickers and group B is DRAMA from TOFN.

 

Balance would be for example if group A has 4 people who each need to have 80k damage done to them to die, and group B has 4 people who each need to have 30k damage done to them in order to die, but the people in group B do 3 times more damage than the people in group A (yes, the classic tank vs dps scenario), even though number wise the people in group B as still at a small disadvantage, they can still overcome it.

[Pearlie]

... fine let me do it group based (for all the people who have no common sense like you).

 

If group A has 4 people who each need to have 80k damage done to them to die, and group B has 4 people who need 30k damage done to them to die, and each person on the group does roughly the same damage, then it is not balanced. Lets say each person can do 5K damage per GCD average thanks to burst and DCDs (it's usually not that high if there is a tank guarding, but w/e). If 3 people from group A focus one person from group B and 3 people from group B focus one person from group A. the person in group B will die in 2 GCDs, while the person that was focused on group A will survive with full health. This is not balance. The only way the people in group B have a chance to win, is if they play the exact same class as the people in group A. They are restricted from playing the class that they like because it just can't win-remember we are assuming almost equal skill, not that group A is full of window lickers and group B is DRAMA from TOFN.

 

Balance would be for example if group A has 4 people who each need to have 80k damage done to them to die, and group B has 4 people who each need to have 30k damage done to them in order to die, but the people in group B do 3 times more damage than the people in group A (yes, the classic tank vs dps scenario), even though number wise the people in group B as still at a small disadvantage, they can still overcome it.

 

You. Are. Clueless.

 

Good luck with that.

[sithBracer]

You. Are. Clueless.

 

Good luck with that.

 

Great reply there, you are obviously too smart to argue with

[Pearlie]

Great reply there, you are obviously too smart to argue with

 

It's not that I'm too smart. Not even close. It's simply that you're too ignorant. Or stupid. Possibly both. No offense!

[sithBracer]

It's not that I'm too smart. Not even close. It's simply that you're too ignorant. Or stupid. Possibly both. No offense!

 

Right and you grasp of sarcasm is sooooo amazing One day you might be as good as sheldon cooper at it

 

Bazinga!!

 

Seriously, if you have a real answer as to why you're right, please write it out. So far your comments on this subject have been as useless as you are on any team.

Edited April 17, 2014 by sithBracer

[Taleas]

Well, there have been times I've popped it and healed for 32k.

 

that´s impossible.

 

did somebody actually read the tooltip? or even looked at the buff from ED?

 

yes, the duration is 30 seconds. but that doesn´t mean it heals you 30 seconds, each second for 1453. it has 10 charges. so, 14530 max.

[JaingSkiratapwns]

With how much ranged damage is going around, specifically sorc, I think modifying enraged defense would be unwise.

[Xinika]

With how much ranged damage is going around, specifically sorc, I think modifying enraged defense would be unwise.

So other melee should also be buffed in similar levels?

[sithBracer]

As I said before, it is very strong 1v1, but I want to put things into perspective. I have been doing group ranked every night this week. Earlier in the week I saw quite a few groups trying vengeance. However, from what i have seen I am now the only vengeance juggernaut to be still queueing consistently on pot5. Most of the other groups switched back to maras. My group has been mostly mara/juggernaut this week, and I am still the primary target against pressure and swap comps. We've won most of our games this week, but it never felt like it was because I was op. Most of our games were close, fun, and challenging.

 

Maras/Sents have undying rage/guarded by the force and camouflage, Sins/Shadows have force cloak and phase walk, VGs/PTs have adrenaline rush/kolto overload which can be popped before combat.

 

Undying rage: 4 seconds of god mode, severe penalty at the end. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: mezz or stay away for 4 seconds then finish him off

 

force cloak: takes you out of battle and puts you in stealth. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: any dots and AoE will get him back into battle, then you can finish him off.

 

phase walk: puts sin in a predetermined position within 60m of current spot. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: just attack him, he will still be in combat so easy to spot, especially for the ranged classes.

 

Kolto Overload: regains health up to 35% for 8 seconds when he falls below 35% health. Cannot be activated while stunned, but can be pre-activated.

counter to it: mezz, or wait it out for 8 seconds and finish him off.

 

ED: 30 seconds of restoring health from 2.5k to 4.5k when attacked up to 10 times. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: .... ummm .... ummm .... yeah nothing. You can't wait it out because 30 seconds is too long, you can't attack and trade damage because he will win out, you would have to do an extra 30k damage do win out. There is no penalty for using it. You can't even prevent its use because he can use it while stunned. It is passive so he can do anything he wants while it heals him. DoTs bring him back to full health ...

 

Honestly, no one sees a problem here?

 

No one denied that juggs needed some help, and there is no problem with giving them another panic button (even though they have saber reflect), but can we at least make it counter-able? Put a time limit of 5-8 seconds on it so it can be countered with a mezz and/or set a limit to how much it can heal up to (35% is fine) before it runs out? But a move that potentially adds a fresh 30k hp to him, brings him up back to full health or forces people to stop attacking him for 30 seconds is too much for a dps class.

[Pearlie]

that´s impossible.

 

did somebody actually read the tooltip? or even looked at the buff from ED?

 

yes, the duration is 30 seconds. but that doesn´t mean it heals you 30 seconds, each second for 1453. it has 10 charges. so, 14530 max.

 

You think ED heals everybody for 1453 per tick? It doesn't. Heals dps for about 2500. And sometimes it crits.

[Xinika]

Undying rage: 4 seconds of god mode, severe penalty at the end. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: mezz or stay away for 4 seconds then finish him off

 

force cloak: takes you out of battle and puts you in stealth. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: any dots and AoE will get him back into battle, then you can finish him off.

 

phase walk: puts sin in a predetermined position within 60m of current spot. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: just attack him, he will still be in combat so easy to spot, especially for the ranged classes.

 

Kolto Overload: regains health up to 35% for 8 seconds when he falls below 35% health. Cannot be activated while stunned, but can be pre-activated.

counter to it: mezz, or wait it out for 8 seconds and finish him off.

 

ED: 30 seconds of restoring health from 2.5k to 4.5k when attacked up to 10 times. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: .... ummm .... ummm .... yeah nothing. You can't wait it out because 30 seconds is too long, you can't attack and trade damage because he will win out, you would have to do an extra 30k damage do win out. There is no penalty for using it. You can't even prevent its use because he can use it while stunned. It is passive so he can do anything he wants while it heals him. DoTs bring him back to full health ...

 

Honestly, no one sees a problem here?

 

No one denied that juggs needed some help, and there is no problem with giving them another panic button (even though they have saber reflect), but can we at least make it counter-able? Put a time limit of 5-8 seconds on it so it can be countered with a mezz and/or set a limit to how much it can heal up to (35% is fine) before it runs out? But a move that potentially adds a fresh 30k hp to him, brings him up back to full health or forces people to stop attacking him for 30 seconds is too much for a dps class.

This is a good summary.

[Avicii]

that´s impossible.

 

did somebody actually read the tooltip? or even looked at the buff from ED?

 

yes, the duration is 30 seconds. but that doesn´t mean it heals you 30 seconds, each second for 1453. it has 10 charges. so, 14530 max.

 

If this is the real number it can heal for then the qq seems unjustified and whomever said it was 32k is clearly coming at it from a biased angle. (I am too lazy to verify this as apparently are most of the qqers which is nothing new).

But it's kinda funny that a lot of the people against it are my Shadow/Sin brothers and sisters in this thread maybe just a coincidence since Xinika started the thread, let's go with that.

[sithBracer]

If this is the real number it can heal for then the qq seems unjustified and whomever said it was 32k is clearly coming at it from a biased angle. (I am too lazy to verify this as apparently are most of the qqers which is nothing new).

But it's kinda funny that a lot of the people against it are my Shadow/Sin brothers and sisters in this thread maybe just a coincidence since Xinika started the thread, let's go with that.

 

It's 30k+. The amount of healing depends on strength I believe, so a fully augmented jugg dps can heal for a 2.5k and 4.5k when it crits. Potentially it can heal for 45k, on average it is around 30k+.

 

I think sins/shadows were affected by this because we were always weak against vengeance juggs, but if we played right and he made some mistakes, we would be able to win. Now unless you play against a complete derp, the odds of winning are very low. Beating people 1 v 1 on off nodes or alone in the field was pretty much the only thing shadows have going for them in regs, now we don't even have that.

 

A lot of people are just dumb and think we want an "easy kill", without realizing that that good vengeance juggs were never an easy kill for us. They are a melee hard counter to us.

 

EDIT-this patch has actually been an indirect nerf to us. We were always strong against smash spec (thanks to our AoE damage reduction and control) and weak against carnage and vengeance. By taking smash out of the game, it takes one of the few classes we are a hard counter to out as well, and made the classes that were hard counters to us more prominent as well as give one them an automatic "I win" button against us.

Edited April 17, 2014 by sithBracer

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Undying rage: 4 seconds of god mode, severe penalty at the end. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: mezz or stay away for 4 seconds then finish him off

 

force cloak: takes you out of battle and puts you in stealth. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: any dots and AoE will get him back into battle, then you can finish him off.

 

phase walk: puts sin in a predetermined position within 60m of current spot. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: just attack him, he will still be in combat so easy to spot, especially for the ranged classes.

 

Kolto Overload: regains health up to 35% for 8 seconds when he falls below 35% health. Cannot be activated while stunned, but can be pre-activated.

counter to it: mezz, or wait it out for 8 seconds and finish him off.

 

ED: 30 seconds of restoring health from 2.5k to 4.5k when attacked up to 10 times. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: .... ummm .... ummm .... yeah nothing. You can't wait it out because 30 seconds is too long, you can't attack and trade damage because he will win out, you would have to do an extra 30k damage do win out. There is no penalty for using it. You can't even prevent its use because he can use it while stunned. It is passive so he can do anything he wants while it heals him. DoTs bring him back to full health ...

 

Honestly, no one sees a problem here?

 

No one denied that juggs needed some help, and there is no problem with giving them another panic button (even though they have saber reflect), but can we at least make it counter-able? Put a time limit of 5-8 seconds on it so it can be countered with a mezz and/or set a limit to how much it can heal up to (35% is fine) before it runs out? But a move that potentially adds a fresh 30k hp to him, brings him up back to full health or forces people to stop attacking him for 30 seconds is too much for a dps class.

This sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[Brantsavage]

Undying rage: 4 seconds of god mode, severe penalty at the end. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: mezz or stay away for 4 seconds then finish him off

 

force cloak: takes you out of battle and puts you in stealth. Cannot use while stunned.

counter to it: any dots and AoE will get him back into battle, then you can finish him off.

 

phase walk: puts sin in a predetermined position within 60m of current spot. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: just attack him, he will still be in combat so easy to spot, especially for the ranged classes.

 

Kolto Overload: regains health up to 35% for 8 seconds when he falls below 35% health. Cannot be activated while stunned, but can be pre-activated.

counter to it: mezz, or wait it out for 8 seconds and finish him off.

 

ED: 30 seconds of restoring health from 2.5k to 4.5k when attacked up to 10 times. Can use while stunned.

counter to it: .... ummm .... ummm .... yeah nothing. You can't wait it out because 30 seconds is too long, you can't attack and trade damage because he will win out, you would have to do an extra 30k damage do win out. There is no penalty for using it. You can't even prevent its use because he can use it while stunned. It is passive so he can do anything he wants while it heals him. DoTs bring him back to full health ...

 

Honestly, no one sees a problem here?

 

No one denied that juggs needed some help, and there is no problem with giving them another panic button (even though they have saber reflect, but can we at least make it counter-able? Put a time limit of 5-8 seconds on it so it can be countered with a mezz and/or set a limit to how much it can heal up to (35% is fine) before it runs out? But a move that potentially adds a fresh 30k hp to him, brings him up back to full health or forces people to stop attacking him for 30 seconds is too much for a dps class.

 

Saber reflect is as much of a panic button as Resilience or dodge whats ur point?

 

Whether it is 30 sec or 8 sec duration once you burn through all the stack from FD/ED the guardian is helpless for 2 minutes. Most of the time, the health you gain is lost just as fast because all it does is heal there is no damage mitigation (except with vig from enure which that health gained from enure is lost in 10 secs anyway) and in all honesty that health doesn't even last 4 secs under good Focus Fire.

 

If the duration and the heals per stack are nerfed the class is finished in terms of offensive specs due to the increase to ranged damage and...actually dmg in general for that matter.

 

At least shadows/sins can get away with Force cloak and resilience if they don't mindlessly use their cc break.

[Ren_simp]

This ability is perfect in its current form but players are going to cry

Until it's nerfed back to its former uselessness