MarsherMeow Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I've never seen anyone in game be against legacy datacrons, the stat increase is so minor that its not a huge issue to grant it to legacy. We already have the class buffs, legacy wide buffs for maxing out a companion on one character, ability to send gear through legacy gear and will soon have a legacy bank and legacy houses. Ratajack makes up the majority of posts on the whole forums against this so still very few are against it from what i've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) I've never seen anyone in game be against legacy datacrons, the stat increase is so minor that its not a huge issue to grant it to legacy. We already have the class buffs, legacy wide buffs for maxing out a companion on one character, ability to send gear through legacy gear and will soon have a legacy bank and legacy houses. Yep. The objections made some sense in 2012 when 1200 main stat was a lot. In those days, +40 made a noticable difference. But these days when we are pushing north of 3500 main stat, it really doesn't matter. People go get all the datacrons because "gotta min/max yo". But mostly it's just an annoyance that could be done away with without seriously impacting the game in any meaningful way. PS: if the game can survive level 10s running around with +41 power crystals, it can probably survive level 10s with +40 main stat. And if it can't, restrict the unlock to level 55 characters only. Edited March 20, 2014 by NoFishing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yep. The objections made some sense in 2012 when 1200 main stat was a lot. In those days, +40 made a noticable difference. But these days when we are pushing north of 3500 main stat, it really doesn't matter. People go get all the datacrons because "gotta min/max yo". But mostly it's just an annoyance that could be done away with without seriously impacting the game in any meaningful way. PS: if the game can survive level 10s running around with +41 power crystals, it can probably survive level 10s with +40 main stat. And if it can't, restrict the unlock to level 55 characters only. He's not unique to MMOs. Even in the first MMOs, any minor change to a game set some people off because they could not grasp how it made little difference to the game as a whole but allowed people to enjoy that aspect of the game more. Before character respecs were the norm people were up in arms against any hint of players asking for the ability stating that players made their choice and it was their fault if they chose skills that were broken or got changed at some point in the game. The arguments were completely illogical but that is how they dealt with changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Strawman argument. A gear drop is not the same as collecting a datacron. It isn't even similar. The argument is exactly the same. Please lay it out clearly, the answer to this question. After clearing DF and DP HMs in 8 and 16 man so many times that I'm actually quite bored of them, and are now full Dread forged geared, why shouldn't all my characters receive a full set of Dread Forged gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) The argument is exactly the same. Please lay it out clearly, the answer to this question. After clearing DF and DP HMs in 8 and 16 man so many times that I'm actually quite bored of them, and are now full Dread forged geared, why shouldn't all my characters receive a full set of Dread Forged gear? Would most people still have much of a reason to play the game if they were given the best gear in the game just because they accomplished the feat once? Would most people still have much of a reason to play the game if they were given legacy datacron unlocks? It is not exactly the same. Try again. Also the amount of boost they give is hardly comparable as well. If you collected none of the datacrons and you were naked and pop a stim and you get about the same stats you would have if you collected all of them. Now if you were naked and equipped full Dread Forged gear that is just a wee bit higher than what 1 stim can do. Edited March 20, 2014 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Please lay it out clearly, the answer to this question. After clearing DF and DP HMs in 8 and 16 man so many times that I'm actually quite bored of them, and are now full Dread forged geared, why shouldn't all my characters receive a full set of Dread Forged gear? Because gear drops are single instance items. Bioware allows you to transfer them to other toons via legacy gear, but the items physically exist in the game, at least as "physically" as any item can. Datacrons are not items that you pick up and carry with you. They are codex entries that are unlocked. Counter questions: why should getting a title on one toon unlock that same title on your alts? And why shouldn't all of your toons be required to gain reputation with the various groups in SW:TOR separately? Why should you be allowed to make copies of CM market items, rather than purchasing them over and over again on each toon? Why should every companion you get max affection with grant a presence boost to every alt? If you object to legacy datacrons, then you should object to all of the above as well on principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Would most people still have much of a reason to play the game if they were given the best gear in the game just because they accomplished the feat once? Would most people still have much of a reason to play the game if they were given legacy datacron unlocks? So even though they are both gameplay elements, its ok to remove one but not the other? quite bizarre reasoning you have going there. It is not exactly the same. Try again. Also the amount of boost they give is hardly comparable as well. If you collected none of the datacrons and you were naked and pop a stim and you get about the same stats you would have if you collected all of them. Now if you were naked and equipped full Dread Forged gear that is just a wee bit higher than what 1 stim can do. Again, seriously weak, just because one has lower stats makes it ok. If they were so insignificant as you and your ilk claim, we wouldnt be seeing a thread like this, with posts like yours, would we? No, you want the stats, but just dont want to go out and get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Because gear drops are single instance items. Bioware allows you to transfer them to other toons via legacy gear, but the items physically exist in the game, at least as "physically" as any item can. Datacrons are not items that you pick up and carry with you. They are codex entries that are unlocked. Is that the best you can come up with? Seriously? I know why you are deflecting the question, because the answer would also justify my dread forged, and or make your argument fall apart over datacrons, its just a case of which way you look at it. Edited March 20, 2014 by Mowermanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Is that the best you can come up with? Seriously? It's a significant difference. Seriously. It is. Really. Seriously. But, why do you object to legacy datacrons and not any of the other things I mentioned? Edited March 20, 2014 by NoFishing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Is that the best you can come up with? Seriously? I know why you are deflecting the question, because the answer would also justify my dread forged, and or make your argument fall apart over datacrons, its just a case of which way you look at it. State one reason how making datacrons legacy based would negatively impact the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It's a significant difference. Seriously. It is. Really. Seriously. But, why do you object to legacy datacrons and not any of the other things I mentioned? No, its not, its a gameplay element for a stat increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnusheart Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 State one reason how making datacrons legacy based would negatively impact the game. AND AND. State one how it could be worse than being able to use +41 stat crystals at lvl 10 also. and the huge presense passive bonuses of maintaining alts also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 State one reason how making datacrons legacy based would negatively impact the game. Classic deflection, I ought to put this one up on wiki as the perfect example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Classic deflection, I ought to put this one up on wiki as the perfect example. So you have zero reason other than you like to argue. AND AND. State one how it could be worse than being able to use +41 stat crystals at lvl 10 also. and the huge presense passive bonuses of maintaining alts also. that's just it, compared to the other achievements which are legacy based, like having 550 presence on a level 1 character or legacy based buffs or legacy class Heroic Moment skills (all 10 of them), the bonus from the datacrons is minor. I have so much presence on a level 20 character that my companion basically wiped out 4 players on her own with me just running circles around them avoiding being shot. Edited March 20, 2014 by illgot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Is that the best you can come up with? Seriously? I know why you are deflecting the question, because the answer would also justify my dread forged, and or make your argument fall apart over datacrons, its just a case of which way you look at it. I didn't deflect the question. I answered it, and then asked a few of my own. And uhm, technically, you're the one that is deflecting by trying to shift focus to Dread Forged gear. You really should look up what stuff means first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Classic deflection, I ought to put this one up on wiki as the perfect example. I assume you are talking about your own posts where instead of talking about legacy datacron unlocks, you tried to shift focus to Dread Forged being copied across your legacy? Yep, that could be a good example of deflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I assume you are talking about your own posts where instead of talking about legacy datacron unlocks, you tried to shift focus to Dread Forged being copied across your legacy? Yep, that could be a good example of deflection. No, You and he couldn't answer my question because to do so undermines your championing for legacy datacrons. Its quite simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) The argument is exactly the same. Please lay it out clearly, the answer to this question. After clearing DF and DP HMs in 8 and 16 man so many times that I'm actually quite bored of them, and are now full Dread forged geared, why shouldn't all my characters receive a full set of Dread Forged gear? There are two answers for that question: 1. Dread Forged gear can be Reverse Engineered as of 2.7, letting one learn the most valuable schematics in the game. If you had all 22 slots unlocked with alts, that would be 660 grade 34 items that could be RE'ed. At a 20% chance, that would give you approx 132 schematics worth of end game gear you could craft. 2. Once a character has reached level 55, there is very little to do other than Dailies, Flashpoints and Operations. If you characters were all given grade 78 gear, you would be more likely stop playing sooner. (Note that this second reason is mainly of importance to EA, not the actual player) Is that a satisfactory answer? Edited March 20, 2014 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 No, You and he couldn't answer my question because to do so undermines your championing for legacy datacrons. Its quite simple really. I did answer your question. And I'll do it again. Because physical items are not the same as codex entries. But fine, here's another reason why it shouldn't be done for gear: because it would screw up crafting. If all your characters could receive sets of gear because you earned them on one toon, it would make reverse engineering for schematics much easier, while simultaneously killing the demand for that gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 1. Dread Forged gear can be Reverse Engineered as of 2.7, letting one learn the most valuable schematics in the game. DAMMIT, I was typing my response at the same time, and you beat me to it. :shakes fist: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) So even though they are both gameplay elements, its ok to remove one but not the other? quite bizarre reasoning you have going there. No one is requesting their removal. And just because they are both gameplay elements does not make them the same. One change would be an additional QOL change that would make the majority of people happy and make life slightly less tedious for those that would rather spend CC or credits instead of spending time wandering and getting all the datacrons. The other would drive many people away from the game once they completed it once as there would no longer be an incentive to play if you could just unlock the best gear in the game with CC or credits. Just because you chose to classify them the same way in your head does not make them the same in the real world. But this apple and orange are the same because they are both fruit that grow on trees..... Edited March 20, 2014 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 DAMMIT, I was typing my response at the same time, and you beat me to it. :shakes fist: Tee Hee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) There are two answers for that question: 1. Dread Forged gear can be Reverse Engineered as of 2.7, letting one learn the most valuable schematics in the game. If you had all 22 slots unlocked with alts, that would be 660 grade 34 items that could be RE'ed. At a 20% chance, that would give you approx 132 schematics worth of end game gear you could craft. So look after the select few gougers? I couldnt care less about that, but I suppose its a reason, however weak it is. 2. Once a character has reached level 55, there is very little to do other than Dailies, Flashpoints and Operations. If you characters were all given grade 78 gear, you would be more likely stop playing sooner. (Note that this second reason is mainly of importance to EA, not the actual player) This is where the crux of the argument comes down to, removing gameplay that keeps people occupied, yet people think its ok in one instance but not the other? I just cant see it. Edited March 20, 2014 by Mowermanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 This is where the crux of the argument comes down to, removing gameplay that keeps people occupied, yet people think its ok in one instance but not the other? I just cant see it. I don't disagree with you on this. Legacy datacrons would remove gameplay that that would keep people occupied. Except for any players that don't run them anyway, because they're more work than they're worth, but might actually decide to get the datacrons if it unlocked across all toons. For those people it would add gameplay, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliJoe Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It would be a nice perk, roughly akin to how legacy buffs work now, and wouldn't imbalance anything. I really don't understand why people object to this idea so strongly. I agree. It could definitely help in the grind of finding things. Another question would be, would "lore" objects be in the list of things as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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