Time to brainstorm some questions

[cs_zoltan]

Sorc/sage is not squishier than merc/mando.

 

And if I read this correctly, you are essentially saying you don't give a rats *** about merc/mando that solo queue. What an awesome class rep you are. Thanks for all you have done, but you have no business representing a player base you just admitted to not giving a **** about.

He's right. And Sage IS squishier than Mando, no question about it.

 

you were the 6,748,261st person to register on this website. I was the 18,327th. when this game was released, I had been playing it for 8 months already. I forgot more about this game than you will ever know.

 

you are not representing your community of merc/mando if you ignore solo because you think it is beneath you. I agree with you that it isn't the upper tier of pvp, but you, yourself have flat out stated that merc/mando basically has to be carried, and then you further state that you don't even give a ****. you are a terrible class rep AND IT ISN'T ANY OF YOUR *********** BUSINESS WHAT ANY ONE OF MY CHARACTER'S NAMES ARE.

LOL, just LOL. You think Mando is the squishiest range class and you think you know anything about this game?

Edited March 21, 2014 by cs_zoltan

[BobaFaceroll]

you are a terrible class rep AND IT ISN'T ANY OF YOUR *********** BUSINESS WHAT ANY ONE OF MY CHARACTER'S NAMES ARE.

 

you don't pvp. your opinion is irrelevant.

 

As far as anyone here knows, since you won't share any of your character's names, you don't PvP either. Per your own standards you are also irrelevant until you care to prove otherwise.

[mr_sim]

Wow Telos, just Wow. You are completely Trolling this thread now. But hell lets look at what you done did say.

 

How about... Why the hell can't grav round/tracer missile be instant cast? It seems unnecessarily punishing to force us to have to stand still to cast an ability whose cast time is the same as the gcd. If we are going to be the lowest performing ranged dps class, it should be because we don't suffer the same penalty as a turret class... Which is lack of mobility.

 

The only suggestion you've made. You want increased Mobility by dropping a cast time, OK. You are aware that this is not a simple change, in fact it's a huge change if your changing a cast time. It feels like asking too much and will be Quickly dismissed by the combat team. However you my wish to keep up the More mobility for this tree idea.

 

My understanding is Merc/Mando DPS is supposed to be high burst, just as our heals are. Burst has a very big virtue in PvP, arguably more so then sustained DPS.

 

Which would be totally fine if we weren't the squishiest ranged class that also does the least amount of damage. If that is going to remain the case, we should get increased mobility... With the incoming sorc/sage survivability buff, we will be even squishier (comparatively speaking). And we would still need to remain stationary for things like unload channels, death from above and fusion missile. The fact is that grav round/tracer missile is the foundation of the spec, but using it forces us to be sitting ducks. Making it instant cast would have no effect at all in damage output in PvE, but would drastically improve our survivability in pvp without having to tinker with any talents.

 

Err.. ever class needs to remain stationary for their ranged AOE and BH/Trooper doesn't need to cast theirs like Agents/Smugglers and Sorcs/Sage do.

 

Also the Sorc/Sage survivability buff is part of a mechanic where they do no damage. Even arguing that they can DoT then Barrier is moot as they are not reapplying Dot right away and see a Net loss in damage dealt. Also it's not a Force regen mechanic either for their DPS trees as those trees never seem to run out of Force, only the healing tree does.

 

Sorc/sage is not squishier than merc/mando.

 

And if I read this correctly, you are essentially saying you don't give a rats *** about merc/mando that solo queue. What an awesome class rep you are. Thanks for all you have done, but you have no business representing a player base you just admitted to not giving a **** about.

 

And so the breakdown in civil discussion began.

 

You do realize that most Class Reps are single faceted and most only either PvE or PvP and are not significant in both areas only one or the other. See: Facts of Life.

 

What Cash did say is Solo Que does not represent a Stable enough example when weighed against all other gameplay. There really isn't a such thing as a PvP only change and PvE vice versa. The "PvP Question" isn't really that, it will affect PvE too and that must still account for, it simply comes from a PvP foundation.

 

I mean... There's a reason we are focused first, and it needs to be addressed. And as long as solo queue is a part of the game, it has to be accounted for.

 

Funny how these words, they have you should know been uttered by the other 2 ranged(sorc,sniper) classes point for point.

 

I will say this, Grav Round is the bane of my gameplay existence in PvE too. I hate it so much that anyone who fires it on me, they must die. I've always felt that kill priority seems to usually fall to either the healer which we are and the class that feels like it's hurting, usually that means melee but Mandos get my attention often where Slingers and Sage not so much.

 

whatever chump... you don't waste your time with solo queuers either, apparently. even though they are a part of the player base that you represent and have legitimate issues that you flat out stated you were going to ignore.

 

let me know when you decide to act like a grown up and actually do the job you applied and were selected for.

 

So Ranked PvP represents a tiny percentage of the game and Solo Que an even smaller percentage. Then divide that by 8 AC and further diminish it by the Mara/Sent, PT/VG, OP/Scdrl Que Bias.

 

By my Reckoning Merc/Mando Solo Que Ranked PvP represents less then 1% of all gameplay in Swtor.

 

Even then if we expand it to the AC it still only represents about what 5% of the AC.

 

You can disagree with those numbers though I feel I'm being generously high.

 

So to accuse Cash of being a bad Rep because he may have a 5% bias is ludicrous. Your argument that he should not be the Rep is baseless .

 

you don't pvp. your opinion is irrelevant.

 

as long as solo ranked is where the majority of ranked happens, it has to be accounted for. 4 random players entering a ranked arena should have an equal chance of success vs. 4 other random players. until we are no longer considered the easiest and fastest kill, we have a problem. the merc/mando class rep refuses to even acknowledge that, and that means he is failing his community... if we are going to remain the lowest performing ranged dps spec, we should get something in exchange for it. the ability to kite and hit while mobile would go a long way towards solving that.

 

And here is the moment where you lost all credibility. When you assaulted someone else credibility. People stop listening when you do that.

 

Seriously are you basing your entire argument on 5 Minute Parses or some thing. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what the Merc/Mando is. Which is the Ultimate Utility class, hell BW thought they had put so much utility into it that they refused us an interrupt in early days. every class must have a trade off and for us it's that fact that we have no right to the top of the damage charts.

 

you were the 6,748,261st person to register on this website. I was the 18,327th. when this game was released, I had been playing it for 8 months already. I forgot more about this game than you will ever know.

 

you are not representing your community of merc/mando if you ignore solo because you think it is beneath you. I agree with you that it isn't the upper tier of pvp, but you, yourself have flat out stated that merc/mando basically has to be carried, and then you further state that you don't even give a ****. you are a terrible class rep AND IT ISN'T ANY OF YOUR *********** BUSINESS WHAT ANY ONE OF MY CHARACTER'S NAMES ARE.

 

I'm sorry but the "I've been playing since Beta/Launch, means I know more then you" argument is completely baseless and silly.

 

Though to be fair Cash, A person does not have to reveal their toon names and there are perfectly legitimate reasons. I myself have yet to do so as I wish to avoid Griefing in GSF though I've left enough breadcrumbs that people could figure it out. In that case though on the GSF forum I feel I show a knowledge base enough to represent that I do indeed actively play.

 

Honestly Cash, Telos has made his suggestion and has stopped discussing it a long time ago. Ignore him and leave him for the rest of us to deal with. He's already polluted this thread with too much "non-topic" personal attacks that are causing the legitimate discussion to be pushed out. Heck I feel as if I made the mistake of making a proposal right in the middle of the conflict and that my post got washed away mostly unread.

Edited March 21, 2014 by mr_sim

[cashogy_reborn]

Like I said, I dont waste time on bad players. And I only asked for his toon name to try to look him up on the leaderboards.

 

And just to be clear, this account was created 1/13 b/c my original account was perma-banned from the forums at that time.

 

 

Instant cast Grav Round is not something I am going to suggest. It is a topic that has already been discussed into the ground in the past, and the conclusions drawn from that suggestion was that it would be too much. Just like Assault-Vanguards, the only way to slow a Gunny-Commando's damage output would be CC or death. And given the amount of damage we are capable of without a significant ramp-up time, that would create an imbalance.

Edited March 21, 2014 by cashogy_reborn

[stockwizzle]

Like I said, I dont waste time on bad players. And I only asked for his toon name to try to look him up on the leaderboards.

 

And just to be clear, this account was created 1/13 b/c my original account was perma-banned from the forums at that time.

 

 

Instant cast Grav Round is not something I am going to suggest. It is a topic that has already been discussed into the ground in the past, and the conclusions drawn from that suggestion was that it would be too much. Just like Assault-Vanguards, the only way to slow a Gunny-Commando's damage output would be CC or death. And given the amount of damage we are capable of without a significant ramp-up time, that would create an imbalance.

 

i think what was discussed about this that was very similar and actually thought about seriously was the ability to cast and move at the same time

[AngelFluttershy]

Sorc/sage is not squishier than merc/mando.

 

And if I read this correctly, you are essentially saying you don't give a rats *** about merc/mando that solo queue. What an awesome class rep you are. Thanks for all you have done, but you have no business representing a player base you just admitted to not giving a **** about.

 

The main reason Cashology isn't looking at solo ranked for balancing is because BioWare stated that they balance classes for PvP based on their performance in group ranked PvP. If Cashology asked any questions with balancing concerns around solo queuing BioWare would dismiss the issue on the ground that it's not about group ranked balance, thus doing the Commando/Mercenary community a disservice.

 

Can we now get back to the topic at hand? This has been derailing for a page now.

[Mastershroom]

My questions: why are Commandos the only ranged DPS class with zero capability for 35m range? Slingers get it by default and Sages can spec into it for certain abilities.

 

Also, can we get rid of the 8s ICD on Curtain of Fire? I know it was bumped up from 6s to keep Gunnery from being too good with the guaranteed proc, but in practice, it's still way behind Assault, and I think reverting the ICD increase would bring it closer without making it overpowered.

[AngelFluttershy]

My questions: why are Commandos the only ranged DPS class with zero capability for 35m range? Slingers get it by default and Sages can spec into it for certain abilities.

 

Also, can we get rid of the 8s ICD on Curtain of Fire? I know it was bumped up from 6s to keep Gunnery from being too good with the guaranteed proc, but in practice, it's still way behind Assault, and I think reverting the ICD increase would bring it closer without making it overpowered.

 

If Commandos were given 35m range on some abilities, which would you suggest? Maybe Charged Bolts, Grav Round, and Full Auto?

[cashogy_reborn]

If Commandos were given 35m range on some abilities, which would you suggest? Maybe Charged Bolts, Grav Round, and Full Auto?

 

I dont see why the base range of all Ranged DPS classes shouldnt be 35m. One of the things that has plagued Ranged vs Melee balance in this game is that most Melee gap closers have the same max range as a Ranged player (albeit Sniper/Slinger).

 

i think what was discussed about this that was very similar and actually thought about seriously was the ability to cast and move at the same time

 

In the past both have been discussed. I had actually made some suggestions on how to change the casting mechanics to allow for movement, with the trade-off being a self-imposed slow while casting/channeling while moving.

Edited March 21, 2014 by cashogy_reborn

[Telos]

fair enough... I just didn't appreciate being called bad by a dude I don't know and have never played with. and sorc is not squishier than merc. I can live through **** on my sorc that my merc has no chance against. force speed to break los > heal to full is a ridiculously strong survival mechanic. force barrier > polarity shift and heal to full is a ridiculously strong survival mechanic.

 

if the ability to cast or hit while mobile is "too much", then how about a defensive buff? again... there should be an upside to being the lowest performing ranged dps class. cash said that merc is an uphill battle. why are you content with that? he said that even a bad merc can cause huge problems if left alone... I say the same can be said about either other ranged dps class. let a sorc alone and he'll rip you apart. leave a sniper to free cast and he'll almost single handedly wipe a team. but both of those classes have better escape mechanics than we do and potentially do more damage. where's the upside for the mercs?

 

and the opinion of a person that doesn't pvp in a discussion about pvp being irrelevant wasn't an insult, it was a simple statement of fact.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Telos

[mr_sim]

fair enough... I just didn't appreciate being called bad by a dude I don't know and have never played with. and sorc is not squishier than merc. I can live through **** on my sorc that my merc has no chance against. force speed to break los > heal to full is a ridiculously strong survival mechanic. force barrier > polarity shift and heal to full is a ridiculously strong survival mechanic.

 

if the ability to cast or hit while mobile is "too much", then how about a defensive buff? again... there should be an upside to being the lowest performing ranged dps class. cash said that merc is an uphill battle. why are you content with that? he said that even a bad merc can cause huge problems if left alone... I say the same can be said about either other ranged dps class. let a sorc alone and he'll rip you apart. leave a sniper to free cast and he'll almost single handedly wipe a team. but both of those classes have better escape mechanics than we do and potentially do more damage. where's the upside for the mercs?

 

and the opinion of a person that doesn't pvp in a discussion about pvp being irrelevant wasn't an insult, it was a simple statement of fact.

 

So your back to mostly rational discussion, good.

 

What exactly are you basing your "Performance" opinion on anyway. Is it Scoreboard, Leader board, or sustained parses?

 

Also what your saying about Sorc Squshiness and Barrier and heal to full, it is against your DPS discussion. A Sorc doing what you describe does 0 DPS and is at a Force deficit coming out of it, not to mention a bunch of burnt CDs. It sounds like you actually play Sorc/Sage and therefor are able to compare them to Merc/Mando easier and have a blind spot maybe to how other classes are playing.

 

Merc DPS are a little thin on defensive CDs perhaps what your looking for could maybe be a reduced CD on Kolto Overload though It would have to Merc only as it would change PT tanks dramatically. That said as long as DFA is still the strongest AOE Mercs might be stuck. Snipers had to lose 62% OS damage just to get a defensive buff that still hasn't been released.

 

I find I PvP I get my *** kicked plenty by Commandos, often with my corpse in a gravity vortex, and taking those same Commandos out is no picnic either. I think there is a general role imbalance that is showing half the ACs as better then the other half in Arenas. Fact is all 3 ranged ACs are considered lesser choices by most people in arenas. You should stop comparing yourself to Snipers/GS and Sorcs/Sage, and more to Sent/Mara.

[cashogy_reborn]

fair enough... I just didn't appreciate being called bad by a dude I don't know and have never played with. and sorc is not squishier than merc. I can live through **** on my sorc that my merc has no chance against. force speed to break los > heal to full is a ridiculously strong survival mechanic. force barrier > polarity shift and heal to full is a ridiculously strong survival mechanic.

 

if the ability to cast or hit while mobile is "too much", then how about a defensive buff? again... there should be an upside to being the lowest performing ranged dps class. cash said that merc is an uphill battle. why are you content with that? he said that even a bad merc can cause huge problems if left alone... I say the same can be said about either other ranged dps class. let a sorc alone and he'll rip you apart. leave a sniper to free cast and he'll almost single handedly wipe a team. but both of those classes have better escape mechanics than we do and potentially do more damage. where's the upside for the mercs?

 

and the opinion of a person that doesn't pvp in a discussion about pvp being irrelevant wasn't an insult, it was a simple statement of fact.

 

Solo Ranked is irrelevant to balance. All of your feedback seems based upon that one environment.

 

I dont PvP?

Edited March 21, 2014 by cashogy_reborn

[TheSupaCoopa]

Sorc/Sage is squishier than a merc/mando. However, the mercenary/Commando lacks any ability to deal with heavy incoming damage(Sages have self-heal, damage absorb barrier, and immunity for a short time.). Aside from mitigation/Self-heal, a well-timed burst of damage can tear a commando apart. We have no "Can't kill me" button.

 

If Heavy armor is supposed to be the commandos main defense, it needs to have more damage reduction(Not tank level of damage reduction, but a good bit more than it has right now.)

 

Cash, you said you don't waste your time with "bad" players. However, you are the most knowledgeable about this class, and it seems like if any one is to give advice or help people new to the class, it should be you.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Solo Ranked is irrelevant to balance. All of your feedback seems based upon that one environment.

 

I dont PvP?

 

I think he just doesn't want to be wrong. He's just throwing crap at you so he seems like he know what he's talking about.

[cs_zoltan]

I think he just doesn't want to be wrong. He's just throwing crap at you so he seems like he know what he's talking about.

 

You didn't say "Duran'del here: ". What happened?

[TheSupaCoopa]

The only PvE topic that came to mind for a question would be about Plasma Grenade. It takes up too much ammo, only hits 3 targets, and deals only moderate damage. It could really use a buff.

[TheSupaCoopa]

You didn't say "Duran'del here: ". What happened?

 

I already posted in this thread. I think.

 

Not sure tho.

 

I only do the intro one time per thread.

[cashogy_reborn]

The only PvE topic that came to mind for a question would be about Plasma Grenade. It takes up too much ammo, only hits 3 targets, and deals only moderate damage. It could really use a buff.

 

I intend to tie this into the PvP question I ask for Assault. Plasma Grenade really should have some kind of tie-in to that tree, seeing as it is the only baseline, non-proc DoT we have.

 

Cash, you said you don't waste your time with "bad" players. However, you are the most knowledgeable about this class, and it seems like if any one is to give advice or help people new to the class, it should be you.

 

If someone asks for help, I am more than happy to provide it.

Edited March 21, 2014 by cashogy_reborn

[Gyronamics]

I intend to tie this into the PvP question I ask for Assault. Plasma Grenade really should have some kind of tie-in to that tree, seeing as it is the only baseline, non-proc DoT we have.

 

Plasma Grenade is also totally unaffected by the sub30% dot boost.

[cs_zoltan]

Plasma Grenade is also totally unaffected by the sub30% dot boost.

 

That's ********. I doubt they'd fix it because Pyro

[TheSupaCoopa]

I intend to tie this into the PvP question I ask for Assault. Plasma Grenade really should have some kind of tie-in to that tree, seeing as it is the only baseline, non-proc DoT we have.

 

 

 

If someone asks for help, I am more than happy to provide it.

 

Alright. Got it

 

Or maybe plasma grenade could be tied into Gunnery to add some dynamic to the class.

 

Are you going to bring up the 35m range in one of the questions or is it a minor issue that can be addressed later?

Edited March 21, 2014 by TheSupaCoopa

[Telos]

 

I dont PvP?

 

That wasn't directed at you.

[cashogy_reborn]

Plasma Grenade is also totally unaffected by the sub30% dot boost.

 

I know, it also not included in any of the damage/surge bonuses. Doesnt make sense.

 

Alright. Got it

 

Or maybe plasma grenade could be tied into Gunnery to add some dynamic to the class.

 

Are you going to bring up the 35m range in one of the questions or is it a minor issue that can be addressed later?

 

I dont think I am going to mention the 35m range thing in the questions, at least not in depth (I might try to sneak it in to the wildcard question).

Edited March 21, 2014 by cashogy_reborn

[ArchangelLBC]

You didn't say "Duran'del here: ". What happened?

 

GET OUT OF MY HEAD.

 

 

Seems I missed all the fun. I don't PVP these days though so meh lol

[wondernmagic]

As far as commando healing goes, I think it's in a great place atm. The only thing that I feel would greatly benefit us in ranked (besides the disengage that we've been talkin about) is interrupt immunity. Our shield is really helpful, but that's only for that moment when we need to shield to mitigate the burst and H2F. Outside of that, there's really no way to reliably cast. I've lost plenty of matches because I get chain interrupted at that crucial moment when you *need* to heal to stay up. Having someone sit on you, interrupt your AMP, and then another enemy interrupting your MP, is a really easy way to shutdown the commando down indefinitely. I've always loved the idea of decoy granting interrupt immunity for the first few seconds, seeing as both dps specs have defensive perks tied to decoy.