Time to brainstorm some questions

[Kinslayer]

Eh definitely do not want, no way I would want to trade a tech attack for a ranged one in PVP.

 

Plus also having 2 attacks that can proc CoF means if one is interrupted you still have the other.

[cashogy_reborn]

If the Curtain of Fire ICD was returned to 6s, how much of an increase in DPS do you think that would result in? I am thinking if we can think of something that ups the longterm DPS by ~200 to put Gunny in the 3.7-3.8k DPS range would make it a competitive choice.

 

Making CoF proc 30% alacrity for Full Auto would definitely be a DPS increase, and would also be another good QoL change for PvP. Say that this alacrity proc is added to CoF, would the ICD need to stay 8s or could it go back to 6s?

 

I have an idea on how to test these possibilities without them actually being implemented. Using MS Excel, we could come up with a test program that tracks each ability of the rotation of so many seconds/minutes. Basically we would need to come up with a GCD-by-GCD list of each ability of the parse. We could then fiddle with the ICD length and channel length (in those 'parses' we would have to come up with new ability lists that reflect the different patterns) and see how the overall DPS changes. I could put the program together in Excel, but I would need someone to put together the ability lists b/c I have no idea what rotations get used in PvE. But it would give us some hard evidence to show the devs and say 'here, try this'.

[Gyronamics]

6s would be.... FA hib/demo/net grav FA hib/demo/net grav FA hib/demo/net grav FA hib/demo/net grav FA and zero chance of losing ammo control.

[cashogy_reborn]

Is that a priority list?

[cs_zoltan]

I'm not sure about that. 6sec ICD with guaranteed proc only leaves 1 GCD for filler. There are other ways to improve dps without touching the ICD. Like adding more abilities to the surge talent or improving ammo management so we can use less hammershots.

Also Gunnery shouldn't be 3,8k. That's too much for a ranged burst spec, 3,65k-3,75k depending on the TK buff outcome is more realistic.

[cashogy_reborn]

I'm not sure about that. 6sec ICD with guaranteed proc only leaves 1 GCD for filler. There are other ways to improve dps without touching the ICD. Like adding more abilities to the surge talent or improving ammo management so we can use less hammershots.

Also Gunnery shouldn't be 3,8k. That's too much for a ranged burst spec, 3,65k-3,75k depending on the TK buff outcome is more realistic.

 

Odawwg had said on the Merc forums that he was hitting ~3600DPS on PTS, so we would need to only find a way to add 100 DPS.

 

Couple ideas:

- add Grav Round to Deadly Cannon (already mentioned by someone I think)

- change Charged Launcher to 3/6/9% damage increase.

- add Hammershots to Deadly Cannon and/or Charged Launcher

 

Would making HIB free again result in a slight DPS increase as well?

[cs_zoltan]

Odawwg had said on the Merc forums that he was hitting ~3600DPS on PTS, so we would need to only find a way to add 100 DPS.

This is that parse.

 

Couple ideas:

- add Grav Round to Deadly Cannon (already mentioned by someone I think)

- change Charged Launcher to 3/6/9% damage increase.

- add Hammershots to Deadly Cannon and/or Charged Launcher

Personally I would add HiB to Deadly Cannon. GR surge would add around 170 dps to that Pizza parse while HiB would be around 60.

Would making HIB free again result in a slight DPS increase as well?

It would of course, again using Pizza's parse it would allow 7-8 more GR instead of hammershots.

HiB surge talent + 8 more GR would add roughly 140 dps (more likely less) to that parse. (I hope i didn't **** up the math somewhere:o)

Edited March 19, 2014 by cs_zoltan

[TACeMossie]

I like adding grav round to deadly cannon, which is about a 11.5% dps increase from grav round. Which if my most-likely-wrong maths is right, is a 111.11-125 dps increase, depending on alacrity (12.5% alacrity is maximum potential @ 125dps increase from high crit grav round)

 

This looks to be the perfect change for gunnery to bring it into competitiveness.

 

That and drop Demo Round to 9 energy and make cell loaders work with alacrity

Edited March 19, 2014 by TACeMossie

[cashogy_reborn]

This is that parse.

 

 

Personally I would add HiB to Deadly Cannon. GR surge would add around 170 dps to that Pizza parse while HiB would be around 60.

 

It would of course, again using Pizza's parse it would allow 7-8 more GR instead of hammershots.

HiB surge talent + 8 more GR would add roughly 140 dps to that parse.

 

So if you had to pick one, which would it be?

[cs_zoltan]

So if you had to pick one, which would it be?

 

Between HiB and GR surge, or between surge talent and free HiB?

 

answer: HiB surge and both

Edited March 20, 2014 by cs_zoltan

[TACeMossie]

This is that parse.

 

 

Personally I would add HiB to Deadly Cannon. GR surge would add around 170 dps to that Pizza parse while HiB would be around 60.

 

It would of course, again using Pizza's parse it would allow 7-8 more GR instead of hammershots.

HiB surge talent + 8 more GR would add roughly 140 dps (more likely less) to that parse. (I hope i didn't **** up the math somewhere:o)

 

You're maths is wrong

 

Assuming 70% surge, tracer missile does 607.8dps pre-crits. Add in +30% surge, and tracer in that parse goes from 820.53dps to 911.7dps - a 91.2dps increase, and the perfect ammount.

 

Also assault gets the HiB crit, so I wouldn't ask for it to be brought across

 

Anyway my solutions are one of:

 

GR surge + Free HiB + Cell loader working with alacrity

GR surge and cheaper demo round + Cell loader working with alacrity

UNLIMITED AMMO!!!!!!! (probably not gonna happen, but can all dream right?)

Edited March 20, 2014 by TACeMossie

[cs_zoltan]

You're maths is wrong

 

Assuming 70% surge, tracer missile does 607.8dps pre-crits. Add in +30% surge, and tracer in that parse goes from 820.53dps to 911.7dps - a 91.2dps increase, and the perfect ammount.

 

Also assault gets the HiB crit, so I wouldn't ask for it to be brought across

 

I just took the highest TM, which is 6292. Then added the surge bonus and mulitplied it the amount of TM crits and added the damage to the 1mil. Since the highest crit probably has adrenal and/or relic procs it's a rough estimate, that's why i said it's probably lower than that.

 

Also about the HiB surge, it would just feel more like a burst spec than GR surge.

Edited March 20, 2014 by cs_zoltan

[cashogy_reborn]

Im more of a fan of adding GR to Deadly Cannon. ~3750k DPS is pretty middle of the road isnt it?

[cs_zoltan]

Im more of a fan of adding GR to Deadly Cannon. ~3750k DPS is pretty middle of the road isnt it?

 

Free HiB with surge should be the same. (I double checked that math ). Counting with avarages it's 3730 dps

 

ps: I hope you meant 3,75k dps

Edited March 20, 2014 by cs_zoltan

[TACeMossie]

Im more of a fan of adding GR to Deadly Cannon. ~3750k DPS is pretty middle of the road isnt it?

 

Yep. Its what id expect a burst RDPS to hit.

 

For reference I think in dread forged these are what the specs should be doing:

 

Ranged AoE spec (Sab Slinger): ~3650dps

Ranged Burst Spec (Gunnery Commando, Sharpshooter Slinger, TK Sage): ~3750dps

Ranged Sustained Spec (Assault Mando, Balance Sage, DF Slinger): ~3800dps

 

Short Range AoE (Tactics Vanguard): ~3700 dps

Short Range Sustained (Assault Vanguard, DF Scoundrel): ~3850 dps

 

Melee AoE (Focus sent/guardian): ~3750dps

Melee Burst (Scrapper Scoundrel, Combat Sent, Infiltration Shadow): ~3800 dps

Melee Sustained (Watchman Sent, Vig Guardian, Balance Shadow): ~3900 dps

 

Hybrid Specs - Ludicrous burst, 2k sustained

Edited March 20, 2014 by TACeMossie

[cashogy_reborn]

Free HiB with surge should be the same. (I double checked that math ). Counting with avarages it's 3730 dps

 

ps: I hope you meant 3,75k dps

 

LOL yea I meant that. I think you might be able to solo raids with that kind of DPS!

[cs_zoltan]

Yep. Its what id expect a burst RDPS to hit.

 

For reference I think in dread forged these are what the specs should be doing:

 

Ranged AoE spec (Sab Slinger): ~3650dps

Ranged Burst Spec (Gunnery Commando, Sharpshooter Slinger, TK Sage): ~3750dps

Ranged Sustained Spec (Assault Mando, Balance Sage, DF Slinger): ~3800dps

 

Short Range AoE (Tactics Vanguard): ~3700 dps

Short Range Sustained (Assault Vanguard, DF Scoundrel): ~3850 dps

 

Melee AoE (Focus sent/guardian): ~3750dps

Melee Burst (Scrapper Scoundrel, Combat Sent, Infiltration Shadow): ~3800 dps

Melee Sustained (Watchman Sent, Vig Guardian, Balance Shadow): ~3900 dps

 

Hybrid Specs - Ludicrous burst, 2k sustained

 

A bit off-topic: Vanguards and DF scoundrel's dps drops significantly outside of melee range + they have the worst gap closers so they should be in the melee brackets.

Also that balance list would only work if melee wouldn't get so ****ed in operations/pvp and sustained specs would have viable burst options. Also AoE potential should be acounted for as well.

A 3,9k balance shadow wouldn't be nearly as effective in a raid environment as a 3,75k Gunnery or TK.

[cs_zoltan]

Anyhow it's about questions not suggestions, in the end they will chose what they see best. We could never the less suggest it in the gunnery question, just like marauders suggested Anni changes.

So in a rudimentary way gunnery question could look like this:

"Gunnery sucks, GR surge or free HiB with surge could bring it on par with TK and SS. Thoughts?"

Edited March 20, 2014 by cs_zoltan

[cashogy_reborn]

Anyhow it's about questions not suggestions, in the end they will chose what they see best. We could never the less suggest it in the gunnery question, just like marauders suggested Anni changes.

So in a rudimentary way gunnery question could look like this:

"Gunnery sucks, GR surge or free HiB with surge could bring it on par with TK and SS. Thoughts?"

 

That is more or less what I will do. But maybe slightly more eloquently.

 

It might be funny to do the questions that way tho lol

[TACeMossie]

A bit off-topic: Vanguards and DF scoundrel's dps drops significantly outside of melee range + they have the worst gap closers so they should be in the melee brackets.

Also that balance list would only work if melee wouldn't get so ****ed in operations/pvp and sustained specs would have viable burst options. Also AoE potential should be acounted for as well.

A 3,9k balance shadow wouldn't be nearly as effective in a raid environment as a 3,75k Gunnery or TK.

 

Eh I main an assault VG and getting ~98% of my possible damage output at 10 range made me make another category for those specs who do a significant amount of damage at range despite being melee.

 

That list is still a 250dps increase for assault vanguards in comparison to live though -_-

[stockwizzle]

honestly if we tie another thing to grav round it will make it even more potent and give even more cause to interrupt it i would like to see this dps increase you guys want to come from a different ability

[cashogy_reborn]

honestly if we tie another thing to grav round it will make it even more potent and give even more cause to interrupt it i would like to see this dps increase you guys want to come from a different ability

 

Its not like a proc or anything, its just more crit multiplier.

 

If you know what youre doing in PvP you should be able to cast it fine, especially with the CoF change.

[DaftVaduhhh]

In PvP scenarios - Gunnery has some "useless" skills.

 

Charged bolts? Only usable as a backup when grav round gets interrupted - but the damage isn't higher enough than hammer shots to justify the lack of mobility.

 

Pulse Cannon? What fool is going to stand in that ability for it's full duration?

 

Explosive Round? Ammo cost is ridiculous compared to the damage increase over hammer shots. Only benefit is the splash damage for a stop-cap when you have enough time before dying for ONE instant cast ability. Pretty limited usefulness...

 

Question is: Is there anything that can be added to these abilities that would make them more useful in a PvP environment, like a slow or root? Since we're a turret, the enemy has to come to us, or at least not get away...for us to be effective.

You have Full Auto for a slow, a more efficient knockback and stockstrike as an immobilise as well as Electro net, stun and CC. You're fine for crowd controls in terms of the number, it's a question of tweaking their effectiveness.

 

ER is already used as a mass slow in the Assault tree via two talents. Given that it doesn't need a slow, benefits to Pulse Cannon (quick tick, increase damage) would likely generate bad play in PvE and thus should not be encouraged.

 

Regarding the faster channel on FA idea, if everything was left as it stands, based on Odawg's parse DPS would go up to nearly 4k mostly through additional auto attacks. There would need to be a damage nerf and for the sake of making it a better PvP spec that should come through Grav Round.

 

I would go with a cost reduction and a more severe damage nerf to accomodate the ammo issues that would otherwise ensue with the FA change.

Edited March 20, 2014 by DaftVaduhhh

[Xienive]

Concerning Assault in PVP

 

How would you guys feel about a talent that makes charged bolts able to be cast while moving in Assault spec? I am playing Pyro on both my Merc and PT and one of the things that I think makes the PT version superior in PVP is the fact that they don't ever have to stop moving to get railshot to proc, and flame burst already does more damage than power shot.

 

I think if charged bolts could be cast while moving it would greatly improve the mobility and kiting capability of the spec which would help with putting it on par with the Vanguard version. I also thought maybe if there was a talent that made it an instant cast but I'm not sure if that would end up as overkill or not. I just think that something needs to be done to help Assault/Pyro for Commando/Merc to be just as viable as the VG/PT version, and something like this would help be a change in the right direction.

[Ottoattack]

Concerning Assault in PVP

 

How would you guys feel about a talent that makes charged bolts able to be cast while moving in Assault spec? I am playing Pyro on both my Merc and PT and one of the things that I think makes the PT version superior in PVP is the fact that they don't ever have to stop moving to get railshot to proc, and flame burst already does more damage than power shot.

 

I think if charged bolts could be cast while moving it would greatly improve the mobility and kiting capability of the spec which would help with putting it on par with the Vanguard version. I also thought maybe if there was a talent that made it an instant cast but I'm not sure if that would end up as overkill or not. I just think that something needs to be done to help Assault/Pyro for Commando/Merc to be just as viable as the VG/PT version, and something like this would help be a change in the right direction.

 

Power shot does 50% more damage than flame burst. That does not mean assault/pyro commando/merc are better (PT is much better). PS will never be no cast, because that will make a heavy armored 30 meter class, that is already one of the top parsers, unstoppable, as damage will be too high and uninterrupt while DCDs are quite powerful for a ranged class.

 

 

For the class questions:

 

PvP:

It is hard to judge without sufficient testing for dps. I do think not think assault will improve much with these changes. They play as a shadow of their counterpart PT, and the only reason they parse higher in PvE is PS and better low skills in the other 2 trees. Gunnery IMO will be the spec to go due to better DCDs and burst, with removal of push back and 45 sec CD on power surge. Will it be good enough? Remains to be seen.

 

PvE:

Other posters covered this regarding gunnery and assault. Gunnery needs a bit of love, and I am not sure how without breaking PvP.

 

It sucks that the questions are due before 2.7. We can't effectively test the changes (aside from parsing on dummies mostly). Very poor timing by devs.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Ottoattack