Petition: Take steps to remove bias to snipers in end game raid groups

[SamuelAU]

Then your group wont be affected by the shield lockout. You dont have to worry. A lot of progression raiders have multiple min-maxed characters, I myself have 3 (gunslinger, sniper (legacy), Commando, PT). If good groups dont need chaining the shield, let them lock it out.

You talk about the 'shield lockout' like it's actually happening. lol

[Korntorn]

Not sure if you are trolling here, but I think you are looking for a problem that isn't there. As multiple posters have said, top guilds are stacking good players, not classes.

 

If anything the current trend is to reroll merc.

[Helmholtzz]

You talk about the 'shield lockout' like it's actually happening. lol

 

It's just a proposal

Edited March 14, 2014 by Helmholtzz

[Icarus-Iso]

End game raid groups especially the progression groups are heavily biased towards snipers. At least 1 sniper is guaranteed in every raid group while 2 snipers are also very common. This shows a huge bias of raid groups towards snipers. The principal reason is the the prevalent raid wide AoE damage and the sniper's unique ability to mitigate that.

 

Under these circumstances what are the dev's plans to give the other ranged classes a fighting chance to get picked in a progression raid group?

 

An easy solution is to put a 3 min raid wide lockout on the sniper shield as it has been done for bloodthirst.

 

What next, putting timers on Sage pulls because that's a unique and beneficial ability that can grab someone out of trouble? Or wait, Transcendence/Predation increases everyone's movement speed and gives some melee/ranged defensive bonus, better put that on a cooldown as well. Then what? A FEW raid groups start favouring Sages/Sorcs for [insert their reason here] and suddenly the other healing classes are being left out, so therefore it must be because of Revivification/Salvation, so we best put a debuff on that so they can't keep both throwing it down to allow other classes in?

 

...In case you couldn't work it out, that was my sarcasm font (hard to see, I know).

 

The shield is a great ability, but nerfing it for the sake of allowing other classes into raids, especially the high end progression, makes no sense. DPS are chosen for their DPS, DAMAGE PER SECOND (and for knowing their classes abilities, knowing raid mechanics, not being drama queens...). That shield is not really going to cut it if you hit the enrage timer because of poor DPS. If the healers are struggling that bad then maybe the group needs to look at the healers and also remind people that classes have their own personal oh-flip-moment cooldown, sometimes more than one.

 

Is there a rundown on class balance in raids? Some stats to back up that snipers are being stacked for their shields and no other reason? Maybe there's just more snipers in raids because more people play them? Or rather can play them well enough to pass. With my guild one week we'll have three snipers in the raid, the next one, it depends on what the players who signed up are playing on.

 

Perhaps more focus could be put into balancing classes before we start nerfing them? (And before anyone asks, yes I have a sniper. Yes I casual raid with him. No, he's not my progression raid character, that would by my healer )

[Helmholtzz]

What next, putting timers on Sage pulls because that's a unique and beneficial ability that can grab someone out of trouble? Or wait, Transcendence/Predation increases everyone's movement speed and gives some melee/ranged defensive bonus, better put that on a cooldown as well. Then what? A FEW raid groups start favouring Sages/Sorcs for [insert their reason here] and suddenly the other healing classes are being left out, so therefore it must be because of Revivification/Salvation, so we best put a debuff on that so they can't keep both throwing it down to allow other classes in?

 

...In case you couldn't work it out, that was my sarcasm font (hard to see, I know).

 

You might think you sound intelligent but you are not and the reason is....

 

The shield is a great ability, but nerfing it for the sake of allowing other classes into raids, especially the high end progression, makes no sense. DPS are chosen for their DPS, DAMAGE PER SECOND (and for knowing their classes abilities, knowing raid mechanics, not being drama queens...). That shield is not really going to cut it if you hit the enrage timer because of poor DPS. If the healers are struggling that bad then maybe the group needs to look at the healers and also remind people that classes have their own personal oh-flip-moment cooldown, sometimes more than one.

 

The sniper does not lack DPS. They are at equal standing with sorcs and behind pyro because pyro is broken. If pyro is fixed, all ranged classes will be within 2-3% of each other. You HAVE to assume equal skill when talking about balance.

 

 

Is there a rundown on class balance in raids? Some stats to back up that snipers are being stacked for their shields and no other reason? Maybe there's just more snipers in raids because more people play them? Or rather can play them well enough to pass. With my guild one week we'll have three snipers in the raid, the next one, it depends on what the players who signed up are playing on.

 

No, that is actually wrong. More people dont play snipers. An immediate follow up question is do I have anything to support that with? Not to 100%. The only total population data that I can get my hands on is the number of snipers that ever set foot in a ranked solo or group arena. Is that indicative of total PvE population? Qualitatively maybe but not quantitatively. But none-the-less the number is 7% of the total population which is significantly lower than the expected 12.5%. So, NO it is not true that more people are playing snipers.

 

Perhaps more focus could be put into balancing classes before we start nerfing them? (And before anyone asks, yes I have a sniper. Yes I casual raid with him. No, he's not my progression raid character, that would by my healer )

 

Its not exactly a nerf to a single sniper or even a group with a single sniper. And as KBN suggested the ballistic shield is overvalued by raid groups and if you try to balance with that perception in play you will end up over buffing the other two ranged classes to counteract this perceived high value of ballistic shield.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Helmholtzz

[SamuelAU]

The sniper does not lack DPS. They are at equal standing with sorcs and behind pyro because pyro is broken. If pyro is fixed, all ranged classes will be within 2-3% of each other. You HAVE to assume equal skill when talking about balance..

The gap is a bit closer from 2.7, but snipers are still a way ahead of sorcs in terms of DPS output. Check the current DPS leaderboard thread to see the discrepancy at a high level.

 

No, that is actually wrong. More people dont play snipers. An immediate follow up question is do I have anything to support that with? Not to 100%. The only total population data that I can get my hands on is the number of snipers that ever set foot in a ranked solo or group arena. Is that indicative of total PvE population? Qualitatively maybe but not quantitatively. But none-the-less the number is 7% of the total population which is significantly lower than the expected 12.5%. So, NO it is not true that more people are playing snipers.

It's difficult to get an accurate representation of which classes are the most popular so I have no idea where you produced that 7% number from. Certainly sniper representation has dropped since the orbital nerf in 2.6, but by and large it's a pretty easy class to learn the rotation for and do passable DPS. I think when you're looking at the kinds of SM 16 man comms runs most of the PvE population does, there is no rhyme or reason to the classes which people choose to bring, certainly nothing more complex than enjoying that playstyle or it being their only 55.

 

Its not exactly a nerf to a single sniper or even a group with a single sniper. And as KBN suggested the ballistic shield is overvalued by raid groups and if you try to balance with that perception in play you will end up over buffing the other two ranged classes to counteract this perceived high value of ballistic shield.

llcarus-lso is talking about pure DPS output, KBN is referring to utility. Quoted paragraph irrelevant.

[Helmholtzz]

The gap is a bit closer from 2.7, but snipers are still a way ahead of sorcs in terms of DPS output. Check the current DPS leaderboard thread to see the discrepancy at a high level.

 

Best MM DPS on leaderboard: 3762.

Best TK DPS on leaderboard: 3676 (2% lower)

 

If my memory serves correctly I did say within 2-3%. I compared MM with TK because both are burst. No madness on that list. So we can agree madness is doing less that it should.

 

It's difficult to get an accurate representation of which classes are the most popular so I have no idea where you produced that 7% number from. Certainly sniper representation has dropped since the orbital nerf in 2.6, but by and large it's a pretty easy class to learn the rotation for and do passable DPS. I think when you're looking at the kinds of SM 16 man comms runs most of the PvE population does, there is no rhyme or reason to the classes which people choose to bring, certainly nothing more complex than enjoying that playstyle or it being their only 55.

 

If you read my post one more time you will see that I said every sniper that ever set foot in ranked arena. Lets see the numbers. Total population: 36134. Total sniper population: 2692(solo ranked) = 7.45%. So I did not pull that number out of my ***. And the team ranked is ~6%.

 

People do all sort of stuff in SM/comms farm raids. I did DF HM on my shadow as DPS in friggin tank gear. And that was the first time I ever played madness on my shadow, EVER!

 

llcarus-lso is talking about pure DPS output, KBN is referring to utility. Quoted paragraph irrelevant.

 

I am at fault here I assumed he wanted to balance the class so all the classes have equal value in the eyes of a raid when composition is considered. As KBN said the sniper utility is overvalued (I think it is actually more valuable but I will go with KBN for the sake of argument) when you try to balance the value of all the classes the value of the utility will come into account. From that point of view the quote is not irrelevant. If the poster was only talking about DPS then I misunderstood him.

[Macio]

I really don't understand what the problem is. If people prefer to stack slinger/snpiers in their guild for progress then let them. If you have been denied a spot in guild run only because raid leader decided to take another slinger over your main then either you not playing well or your raid leader is a dic*. If you play your character well and you are raid aware there is no reason no to take you.

If on another hand boss mechanic require stacking particular class to be the only way to beat the encounter then encounter is badly designed.

 

Every DPS has a raid utility.

- Commando can battle rezz, can help with healing if required, can cleanse.

- Sage can rezz, heal, cleanse, pull friendly targets out of trouble.

- Shadow - stealth rezz not sure there are any other as i never played one

- Sentinel - Transcendence, Inspiration, off heal during ZEN if specced in Watchman (and it adds up during whole fight especially if you have more then one)

- Gunslinger - Diversion (not used often as its not affecting raid bosses) and shield ... really only one ability that any gunslinger can benefit the group with. Its AoE reduction for the duration not immunity. We (as i play one) have no other raid utility.

 

Its raid leader decision what he needs most based on their group strength and weakness. If there is a phase in a fight that favors use of a shield then that's fine. If raid leader will think this is by far the most difficult phase and they group is not good enough to beat it without 2 shields then be it. They will loose out on extra dispels, off heals, lovely looks my female vanguard or whatever.

 

My main is gunslinger and was since lunch, we run with three sentinels in our group now and most fights i can't touch their DPS. They just have so much AoE power. But I do not shout its too OP or nerf it to the ground. I can be lowest DPS of all the classes and I will still play my Gunslinger. But if you want to nerf only good group utility Gunslinger has, then remove cleanse from Sage and Commando DPS (or do a timer of 3 minutes on use ) and get all their heals to be only single target. Lets remove all group utility skills from the game and then we might have everyone happy (not).

 

I like my gunslinger not for his shield, but for mobility. I will take my Hightail It over any other utility skill there is in the game. If i can help my group will well placed damage reduction then why not (by the way i am hoping you will make a thread to remove an absorb shield from Guardian tank AoE taunt as stacking two guardian tanks can help mitigate some damage if they chain taunt )

[g_mK]

I don't think Sniper untility is that great, yes they are good dps but not by that much and some classes outperform them. People overvalue things like scrambling shield or even inspiration.

Skill is always more valuable than what class you are playing. Taking only slingers/snipers is similar to pugs only taking people with dps/heals with 38k or more HP and tanks with 45K HP because it means "they are geared"

Top raiding guilds take the player not the class

[KeyboardNinja]

The gap is a bit closer from 2.7, but snipers are still a way ahead of sorcs in terms of DPS output. Check the current DPS leaderboard thread to see the discrepancy at a high level.

 

Actually, with the very latest changes, that might not be true anymore. Rosalyn (from the leaderboard) was doing some parsing on the PTS last night, and even with entirely middling luck, he was able to nearly break a 3.6k. A really lucky parse, with crit rates as high as what the best sniper parses show and solid luck on double-ticks, would probably put him neck-and-neck with the very best snipers.

[OneShotXV]

There! You actually agree with me. You are bringing those extra two snipers just for the shield not for the roll, leg shot, high dps, diversion or hunker down. You said it yourself, if all 3 snipers cant use the shield then you will only bring 1. I have a problem with this. Snipers are getting picked in the raids for the wrong reason, for an ability which you said is not that important to begin with. If the lockout is implemented the snipers will be picked for their original purpose: DPS.

 

The debuff would be like inspiration debuff. Once one sniper uses it any other sniper in the group cant use the ballistic shield before the debuff goes away. This promotes coordinated gameplay where groups will talk and plan before they use the shield.

 

Wait wait wait. So 3 snipers and 3 mercs is considered "stacking" snipers, but 1 sniper and 5-6 mercs is totally balanced?

[Khevar]

Wait wait wait. So 3 snipers and 3 mercs is considered "stacking" snipers, but 1 sniper and 5-6 mercs is totally balanced?

As was pointed out to me in the Merc forums (), the Pyro proc chance is currently broken. (i.e. 2xPS === 90% PPA).

 

Stacking 5-6 mercs because of a broken proc is not good either.

[OneShotXV]

As was pointed out to me in the Merc forums (), the Pyro proc chance is currently broken. (i.e. 2xPS === 90% PPA).

 

Stacking 5-6 mercs because of a broken proc is not good either.

 

Is stacking operatives for stealth rez? Is stacking vengeance juggs to taunt + saber reflect brontes's lightning balls? Is stacking marauders with undying rage and arsenal mercs with chaff flare talented okay for the same reason? Classes have different utility, there will always be reasons to bring one class over another. Further, there are 6-8 ranged dps spots in a raid, and only 3 ranged dps classes. Bringing someone more than once has to happen, and if all else is equal you take the class whose utility fits the fight best. When groups were bringing 8 snipers or more there was a problem, right now its pretty balanced, and if it favors snipers at all its just because people played them from before the nerfs and didnt switch back since they were used to the class and fight specific strategies. Theres no need to change anything.

[Khevar]

There's nothing particularly wrong with stacking multiple classes, unless it's due to something broken.

 

KBN's example in HM EC with the stacking Ballistic Shield DR is a great example of such. Until that was corrected, it was possible to completely avoid the mechanic by bringing 5 slingers and get 100% DR.

 

Similarly, before 1.3 the armor debuff used to stack additively. Bring 5 Mercs and fight a boss with no armor.

 

(Note that I'm not contending that Baree's premise about sniper shields is actually broken. I didn't spend enough time on the PTS to form an opinion about that.)

 

The only reason I keep posting in this thread, is to say that IF Baree is correct, and there actually IS an imbalance with the Sniper Shield predisposing them over other classes to deal with NM mechanics, then the proposed solution of a raid-wide lockout seems the least intrusive.

 

Incidentally, your comment about not wanting to take 3 snipers if this proposal were implemented is interesting to me. Assuming the Pryo proc was fixed, would you really stop bringing 3 snipers in your raid group just due to a loss of a chain-cast Sniper shield?

Edited March 14, 2014 by Khevar

[Icarus-Iso]

The sniper does not lack DPS. They are at equal standing with sorcs and behind pyro because pyro is broken. If pyro is fixed, all ranged classes will be within 2-3% of each other. You HAVE to assume equal skill when talking about balance.

 

So the classes are all equal in the hands of the right players. Right. Players. You're assuming that each Guild/Run has a large pool of players all performing within that 2-3% range. For a larger guild that may be possible, but for a smaller one, unlikely. I never claimed that the sniper lacks DPS, only that DPS were chosen for their ability to perform in the raids, and that ability comes from their players. They're not an AI, as much as we may wish they were sometimes

 

Snipers are in that position that they're a pure DPS class. You level one, you can't decide at level 55 you'll switch to heals or tank for a change or because it's quicker queues or someone in the raid can't make it. They, like marauders, don't have much of support if they notice the tank or healer suddenly in a bad spot. No taunts. Not cleanses. No rezzes. No occasional cheap off heal.

 

If you want to start limiting their one ability to assist other members of the raid (there's Cover Pulse and Diversion but they're more enemy based that ally), what do you propose to offer them in return? Or, like my sarcasm was poorly getting at in my original post, why start limiting their raid-wide ability but leaving the other classes alone?

 

What's the suggestion to get them back into balance then with this ability on a global cooldown?

 

And before any action is taken can we get some information from those guilds that are perceived to be stacking snipers for the sake of one ability to confirm that? After doing it on content after it's official release, not on the PTS?

 

If the majority of guilds are doing it and it means that players are being forced to bring snipers ahead of other classes then there may be an issue, but again, perhaps that will be in the performance of the raiders or the content needing fixing than by a possible overuse of a single ability.

 

I'd personally enjoy seeing all classes on a more equal DPS level being the first priority of the powers that be, and I mean DPS output for the above-average player, not the amazing guys and girls at the top of the leaderboards.

 

No, that is actually wrong. More people dont play snipers. An immediate follow up question is do I have anything to support that with? Not to 100%. The only total population data that I can get my hands on is the number of snipers that ever set foot in a ranked solo or group arena. Is that indicative of total PvE population? Qualitatively maybe but not quantitatively. But none-the-less the number is 7% of the total population which is significantly lower than the expected 12.5%. So, NO it is not true that more people are playing snipers..

 

The 7% is based on an assumption that players playing ranked PVP are equal to those looking for harder content raids, so the conclusion should be "So, NO it is not true that more people are playing snipers IN RANKED PVP".

[OneShotXV]

There's nothing particularly wrong with stacking multiple classes, unless it's due to something broken.

 

KBN's example in HM EC with the stacking Ballistic Shield DR is a great example of such. Until that was corrected, it was possible to completely avoid the mechanic by bringing 5 slingers and get 100% DR.

 

Similarly, before 1.3 the armor debuff used to stack additively. Bring 5 Mercs and fight a boss with no armor.

 

(Note that I'm not contending that Baree's premise about sniper shields is actually broken. I didn't spend enough time on the PTS to form an opinion about that.)

 

The only reason I keep posting in this thread, is to say that IF Baree is correct, and there actually IS an imbalance with the Sniper Shield predisposing them over other classes to deal with NM mechanics, then the proposed solution of a raid-wide lockout seems the least intrusive.

 

Incidentally, your comment about not wanting to take 3 snipers if this proposal were implemented is interesting to me. Assuming the Pryo proc was fixed, would you really stop bringing 3 snipers in your raid group just due to a loss of a chain-cast Sniper shield?

 

Chaining sniper shields is in no way broken. Thats the point. Its not even close to broken. Its just a nice defensive utility give to a class with very little by way of defensive utility. I also do not think it was coincidence that bioware gave the two raid cooldowns to the two pure DPS classes in the game, since they bring very little else to a raid other than pure numbers, and pure numbers is almost never enough to justify a spot in a raid. When i talk about replacing snipers with mercs for NiM Brontes, they are all playing arsenal anyway, so fixing the proc does nothing to change that. DPS utility on that fight is almost all about minimizing the massive raid wide damage taken as opposed to needed to push out top numbers in most phases. Minus shields, snipers are quite bad at that.

 

Honestly I would rather see them give another raid wide defensive to another class if this was a balance issue (like giving sorcs a throughput raid cooldown or something) before they take away the only real one in the game.

[Falver]

The posters in favor of this petition are the ones ignoring the majority opinion that it's not about the gunslinger shield. There's simply no bias to speak of.

[Khevar]

Chaining sniper shields is in no way broken. Thats the point. Its not even close to broken.

Fair enough. As I mentioned before, I'm not trying to argue that it is broken.

 

I'll go on the record and say that this entire argument about "bias toward snipers" may be completely wrong.

 

I am not, in fact, lobbying on behalf of this change.

 

However, I am still confused about some of the arguments you've made.

When i talk about replacing snipers with mercs for NiM Brontes, they are all playing arsenal anyway, so fixing the proc does nothing to change that. DPS utility on that fight is almost all about minimizing the massive raid wide damage taken as opposed to needed to push out top numbers in most phases. Minus shields, snipers are quite bad at that.

Are you saying an Arsenal merc brings raid-wide damage reduction to the group?

 

Even without the shield, a Sniper is still pretty great for that fight. Setting aside the two Pyro parses, a Sharpshooter leads the 16-man dps leaderboard for Brontes. Note that this spec brings the armor debuff, and has as the aoe dr from Entrench (not raid-wide, but 60% dr with 38% uptime is nothing to shake a stick at)

 

I'm not trying put down Arsenal, because that is a fine spec, but why would your group abandon Sniper for an Arsenal merc just because the shield wasn't chain-castable?

[wainot-keel]

Not sure if you are trolling here, but I think you are looking for a problem that isn't there. As multiple posters have said, top guilds are stacking good players, not classes.

 

If anything the current trend is to reroll merc.

 

Yeah, just because one observes some guilds, on the PTS, testing NiM content having 1 or more snipers, allegedly because of their shield, the conclusion is that there is major problem that has to be fixed, it really is a HUGE stretch.

 

But anyway, say there has to be global lockout for that shield kinda like there is one for Bloodthirst. Just like that ?

 

Bloodthirst not only got a lockout, at the same time got improvements as well. Its scope was only the mara's group, four people, and at 30m iirc. Now it's 40m and affects everybody. Also, the mara(s) affected by Bloodthirst build(s) fury during, which is a great thing too.

TBH, I kinda like the changes to BT. For example, when we were progressing on Brontes HM, we decided to pop BT during the 6 fingers phase. I may be bias 'cause I main a healer , but quite frankly, that 15% extra healing during such stressing moments was really sweet.

 

So, "sniper shield should get a lockout like bloodthirst" ... aside from the lockout, what else ?

[OneShotXV]

Are you saying an Arsenal merc brings raid-wide damage reduction to the group?

 

Even without the shield, a Sniper is still pretty great for that fight. Setting aside the two Pyro parses, a Sharpshooter leads the 16-man dps leaderboard for Brontes. Note that this spec brings the armor debuff, and has as the aoe dr from Entrench (not raid-wide, but 60% dr with 38% uptime is nothing to shake a stick at)

 

I'm not trying put down Arsenal, because that is a fine spec, but why would your group abandon Sniper for an Arsenal merc just because the shield wasn't chain-castable?

 

classes that can take a lightning ball at no damage (arsenal, juggs, marauders, assassins maybe?, anything that can take zero force/tech damage for a few seconds) have a distinct advantage during that fight. True this can be done with a sniper roll too, but the timing on that is much trickier and the margin for error is large to the extent its not worth trying until the ball hits high stacks anyway. I think its gotten way off topic at this point anyway, and it may even be a 16 man vs 8 man difference too if you dont raid 16s. If theres anything to take away from anything ive said in this whole thread its that there is no problem with the way the shield functions and given all the nerfs snipers have taken recently, time for the devs to leave them alone and fix other things that need it

 

(and all this is moot anyway since the devs will never see this thread anyway and its not a change they are seriously considering lol)

Edited March 15, 2014 by OneShotXV

[odawgg]

Do you see the third guy on my signature with the title? Thats a gun slinger. So the problem is not that I dont have a gun slinger. The problem is when I saw the groups in PTS testing NiM DF, I could not find 1 group without a single sniper. And most of the groups had more than 1 sniper. These are big names in game who go for world first and second. When they make a raid group choice they go for the most efficient and cutting edge choice. Which shows there is a definite bias towards snipers.

 

I asked myself, why? The only answer I could come up with is the ballistic shield. Can you explain why all of the raid groups in NiM DF on PTS had at least 1 sniper and most of them had multiple?

 

I think you're overreacting a bit bud...the top guilds will look at dps composition really only to the point that they try to have a thirst, definitely an armor debuff (which is widely abundant) , and avoid more than 2 melee...it's just about having solid players when going through progression, Haven't seen an operation since NiM TFB that really tested top notch dps, we'll see if NiM DF will bring any fights that do when it hits live, so far not seeing it from PTS.

 

It's obvious though that BW likes snipers and want to see them in raid groups, the sniper shield does come in handy but you can get by without them if you're other rdps do their jobs right. We've ran 3 mercs and a mara on some nights these past couple weeks, just depends who's on.

 

I think you see snipers in a lot of groups more-so because there's a lot of good players that like to play sniper and historically it's been OP, not as much now. Would like to see more sorc dps emerge though.

Edited March 15, 2014 by odawgg

[orangefishboy]

I think you're overreacting a bit bud...the top guilds will look at dps composition really only to the point that they try to have a thirst, definitely an armor debuff (which is widely abundant) , and avoid more than 2 melee...it's just about having solid players when going through progression, Haven't seen an operation since NiM TFB that really tested top notch dps, we'll see if NiM DF will bring any fights that do when it hits live, so far not seeing it from PTS.

 

It's obvious though that BW likes snipers and want to see them in raid groups, the sniper shield does come in handy but you can get by without them if you're other rdps do their jobs right. We've ran 3 mercs and a mara on some nights these past couple weeks, just depends who's on.

 

I think you see snipers in a lot of groups more-so because there's a lot of good players that like to play sniper and historically it's been OP, not as much now. Would like to see more sorc dps emerge though.

 

The version of NIM DF on PTS right now is actually not exactly the launch version. As they said here, there will be a buff on each boss called "Nightmare Power" which will increase its health and damage output to nightmare levels. This buff will be temporary, but will be on the bosses as soon as the Op releases.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

In Theory, you should only need 1 sniper, and that sniper would need to be the Engineering Spec, because EMP Discharge is able to reset the CD of the AOE Shield, and EMP Discharge is only on a 1 min 15 second CD ( i think). So ideal 8 Man Raid Group would be.

 

1 Merc Healer

1 Sorc Healer

 

1 PT Tank (Main)

1 Sin Tank (Off/Adds)

 

1 Engi Sniper

1 Pyro Merc

1 Mara

1 DPS of your choice

 

PT Tank has the most midigation of the 3 tanks, and benefits from being the main tank because they can shield attacks more often. Sin Tanks have the most AOE of the 3 tanks, and make for great adds tanks. Merc Healers have Kolto Shell and Kolto Missile, and make great Tank healers. Sorc Healers have great AOE Healing, and make for decent Tank healers. Engi Sniper for easy 2 use on AOE Shield. Pyro Merc for the immense DPS. Mara for Bloodthirst and Predation. DPS of your choice, Preferably a Conc Op or Deception Sin, or even a Lightning Sorc for killing adds faster because tons of AOE.

[odawgg]

The version of NIM DF on PTS right now is actually not exactly the launch version. As they said here, there will be a buff on each boss called "Nightmare Power" which will increase its health and damage output to nightmare levels. This buff will be temporary, but will be on the bosses as soon as the Op releases.

 

yup I'm aware of that, but we won't know how much till it hits live, NiM S&V focused on mechanics, fotm dps classes were not necessary, we'll see what they do here, but my hunch is we'll see the same.

Edited March 15, 2014 by odawgg

[mastirkal]

The version of NIM DF on PTS right now is actually not exactly the launch version. As they said here, there will be a buff on each boss called "Nightmare Power" which will increase its health and damage output to nightmare levels. This buff will be temporary, but will be on the bosses as soon as the Op releases.

 

They already have the nightmare power. It's that buff with the skull on it.

Edited March 15, 2014 by mastirkal