Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[Master-Nala]

I have a short trial today my fellow Force masters, but I am reading your feedback. I intend to make changes to the healing and survival questions. The visual question needs a consensus to develop to knock it off. Also I intend to archive the dev posts from 2.7 so people know that several issues, e.g. pushback are already under review.

 

Finally, I intend to start the feedback section and should be done by Friday.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Honestly I don't mind the animations on TkT and Project. Sure they could look a bit cooler but I have no idea what could be Jedi appropriate as animations and I'd rather have the devs spend more time on actual issues rather than aesthetics (yes, they spend a lot of time on that already). As such, one of the big things I've been seeing mentioned in the forums over the past couple years is the "need" for an execute. I believe there would be many in the community that would like to see this appear into our rotation.

 

That being said, I really don't think TK needs one at this time, however Balance does (oooo controversy). I'll have you know I main a TK Sage these days and as much as I'd like an execute, I think the spec brings enough in terms of AoE damage and single target damage during the rest of the fight while being an extremely potent burst class. As such, an execute would only make this spec more favorable for both burst and burn phases than Balance. With the buffs coming in 2.7 (albeit with an AoE nerf) TK still brings better AoE than Balance and from the testing I've seen and done still rules the outright DPS world of Sages. That's all I have to say about TK.

 

Balance on the other hand, needs a dps boost and an incentive in PVP to spec into the 36 point tree after 2.7. While the DoTs in PVP are already feared, Balance lacks what is the king of PVP in burst. Now they don't need to have both burst and DoTs all the time, but the ability to quickly finish an enemy is absolutely crucial. In addition, adding an execute for PVE would give some flavor to Balance and make them very useful for burn phases. Some members of these forums have indicated a wish for Project to make its way back in the rotation, so some % boost to Project's damage under 30% would make a significant DPS boost and provide a bit of variety that Balance needs. Additionally, Balance Shadows already have DoTs that tick harder below 30% built into their tree. This would be simple to port over and provide yet another DPS boost. My own personal idea is to have some combination of the 2 where Project under 30% provides a debuff to the target for 15 seconds (the length of the cooldown on Mind Crush and FiB) that causes the target to take x% damage extra from that player. Take these for what you will.

 

So the actual question would come out to, the Sage community has long been asking for an execute type ability to aid in both burst and burn phases in PVE and to help finish off opponents in PVP. Are there any plans to introduce an execute ability to make Sages more desirable for both competitive PVE and PVP teams?

[Dyvim]

Honestly I don't mind the animations on TkT and Project. Sure they could look a bit cooler but I have no idea what could be Jedi appropriate as animations....

 

Luckily others do:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718365

 

....and I'd rather have the devs spend more time on actual issues rather than aesthetics (yes, they spend a lot of time on that already).

 

I'm pretty sure the devs are split into different teams and the ones handling animations and art assets are separate from the combat balance team, etc...and aesthetics are actual issues, ones EAWare are interested in greatly, as they make a lot of money off of armor skins, weapon skins, color crystals, speeder skins, etc, in the cartel market. Players like choice, and they like the ability to customize the look, feel, and playstyle of their toons. Combat animations are a big part of that issue.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Dyvim

[judgeender]

With respect to an Execute, yes, it would be very nice, particularly in Balance/Madness. However, I'm not sure this would be a great question at this time. Bioware recently acknowledged that Balance/Madness needs a bit of a dps boost (particularly in PvE). There was an entire thread requesting suggestions on how/where to increase that dps. Numerous suggestions were made, including giving an execute. My recollection is that Bioware's last comment was that they were still looking at how to resolve the problem and the fix would likely be some combination of Sever Force and Force Lightning, that wasn't a final determination. Since Bioware has already acknowledged that Balance/Madness DPS needs some tweaking and has indicated that they are looking at it, asking a question on this same topic is unlikely to get us any further information/action than is already being contemplated.

[ShadowMudkip]

Make the force armor absorb more damage.

[colemanron]

A question about the executes could be a good one. As the game stands right now Lightning/TK must not get an execute ability, it would make the spec grossly overpowered in pvp. However Madness/Balance is not performing where it should dps wise, so an execute talent could definitely help, or possibly even fix the issue completely.

 

After taking a good look at the classes one cannot help, but notice, that all of them have some kind of execute with the exception of the Sorcerer/Sage. Every class not having an execute ability gets a talent in its dot tree in exchange. I believe as of right now the Sorc/Sage is paying the price of the double execute Sins/Shadows have in the shared tree, which is something no other class has (Sniper/Slinger don't count, as Lethality/DF practically don't have an execute ability).

 

Obviously in exchange Sage/Sorc was given Focal stacks, but since admittedly the shared tree for both Inquisitor/Consular classes is performing under expectations, Sage/Sorc could possibly get the execute of their stealthy cousins. At the same time they could be given a reworked version of the Focal stacks to put sustained DPS of the shared tree for both classes to the place they were meant to be. To keep the amount of points usable in the tree unchanged the 2 dotheal talents could be merged, or both turned into 1 pointers.

[Master-Nala]

Balance on the other hand, needs a dps boost and an incentive in PVP to spec into the 36 point tree after 2.7....

 

So the actual question would come out to, the Sage community has long been asking for an execute type ability to aid in both burst and burn phases in PVE and to help finish off opponents in PVP. Are there any plans to introduce an execute ability to make Sages more desirable for both competitive PVE and PVP teams?

 

It's a shame that they removed the threads, but Rob Hinkle has already stated that they are looking into buffing Balance. There was a great discussion on it. We can probably expect a change to Sever Force or TK Focal Point in the near term.

 

I'm not trying to shut down folks, but I see little need in asking about issues that have already been acknowledged as problems.

[Master-Nala]

I have a few topics I would love to get some commentary on. To wit:

 

1. Regarding an execute, can someone make the case for the need? TK probably shouldn't have one and Balance doesn't need one in PvP. Balance's problem is its DPS just needs a boost. Can someone articulate the problem an execute resolves? That's the support we'll need to back up a request like that.

 

2. Someone made a very adept argument regarding the skill tax suffered by Sages and how that would get worse in 2.7. I can see that for Balance, but is this truly a problem for TK or Seer? Give me your thoughts.

 

3. Off-healing. KBN suggests that Sage off-healing is very good. I'm personally skeptical. How do you all feel?

Edited April 3, 2014 by Master-Nala

[AdrianDmitruk]

I have a few topics I would love to get some commentary on. To wit:

 

1. Regarding an execute, can someone make the case for the need? TK probably shouldn't have one and Balance doesn't need one in PvP. Balance's problem is its DPS just needs a boost. Can someone articulate the problem an execute resolves? That's the support we'll need to back up a request like that.

 

2. Someone made a very adept argument regarding the skill tax suffered by Sages and how that would get worse in 2.7. I can see that for Balance, but is this truly a problem for TK or Seer? Give me your thoughts.

 

3. Off-healing. KBN suggests that Sage off-healing is very good. I'm personally skeptical. How do you all feel?

 

I'm the person who made Argument Number Two (and I believe that as the question doesn't fit within the other two questions, it should displace the "Jedi appearance" question to a bonus question, but it seems you were the only one who noticed the post). To answer the question:

 

Seer is currently taxed 7 points in telekinetics spec (5 points bottom tier for Force Management, 2 points in the bubble absorption talent, I forget what they're called pubside as my main is a sorc). That's in middle tree alone. It's also taxed 2 points in Will of the Jedi (3/6% Willpower bonus), and in the case of PVP, arguably taxed another 2 points for the (weak) DR talent as we need all the mitigation we can get.

 

In PVE, therefore, seer is taxed 9 points. That leaves only 1 "discretionary" point to pick up any desired talents in seer tree past the 36 point spec; it's very cookie-cutter with almost no room for variation. In PVP, seer is arguably taxed 11 points, which makes the 36-point build somewhat impractical (too many drawbacks of too much severity, literally not enough points to go around paying all the skill taxes), and when combined with the void of useful PVP talents between seer points 22-35, the excessive skill taxes impel many sage/sorc healers to experiment with hybrid builds. After the buffs to sage/sorc DPS, along with the decided lack of attention to the heal tree, however, I fear that the point in even attempting to heal with this class in PVP will disappear entirely.

 

To the extent skill taxes are not a problem with seer spec, I'd argue that is simply because the top third of seer tree leaves a lot to be desired, so it doesn't really seem like we're giving up much by "only" speccing 36 points.

 

In PVE, telekinetics is taxed 5 to possibly 7 points in seer tree alone. 2.0 nerfed crit and alacrity scaling very harshly (along with forcing us to exchange alacrity which is important to casters for some accuracy in our stat budget), and quite frankly, we are expected to get those stats back via those 5 talent points at the bottom of seer even if not every sage does it. (Autocrit TB makes up for the crit loss somewhat, but unlike smash, it's really hard to argue that the rest of telekinetics' rotation is simply filler.) Of course with the devs unwilling to give us any form of off-GCD active mitigation whatsoever, any anti-ranged mechanic requiring intensive healing starts to make the healing received talent another skill tax as well. And of course those 2-4 points in balance (depending upon how much you will need healing) are an omnipresent tax too.

 

All of that leaves PVE telekinetics in a very cookie-cutter position, again spending the minimum necessary 36 points and unable to invest in "optional" talents within lightning tree. (As an example, Electric Bindings--again forgive me for not knowing sage names offhand--is widely considered unnecessary in PVE because it doesn't directly boost damage in any way, even though it can be of immense help against stray adds and buy your tank/healer more time to support you.)

 

And that's before we even begin to get into PVP, where Humility and Egress also await as taxes assessed against telekinetics, payable from the second tier of seer tree. Egress of course for obvious reasons, but Humility's penalty to melee attackers is critical when we stun to buy space, only to see the attacker lolbreak the stun because our hardcasted mez is so useless/interruptable. In addition, PVP survivability regardless of spec is so infamously balanced around "heal to full," incoming healing bonuses become especially important to get the most out of h2f (especially given the weakness of our "offheals" in DPS spec); yet paying 8-10 skill taxes in seer leaves us robbing ourselves of the skill taxes in madness and again leaves us little room for "extra" talents in lightning.

 

Other classes can go 39-40 points in their trees if they like the talents in the top section thereof enough. Our class simply doesn't have that option. Oh, and did I mention that having so many skill taxes around encourages the very hybrid builds that Bioware has claimed to loathe?

 

These skill taxes need to die in a fire.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Also, to provide a quick answer to your Question the Third: Lightning offhealing can be very, very good, though it requires sacrificing big offensive cooldowns (often simultaneously) to heal instead of filling your role, DPS. Force Armor+ [Off GCD Force Potency+Mental Alacrity] + Benevolence spam can provide some really, really nice and unexpected burst healing when your healers find themselves in a pinch. But Lightning spec alone has the spare Force to pull this off, and as repeatedly pointed out by the community, the devs' stated decision to balance our "utility" and survivability around "offhealing" to full detracts heavily from the role we actually want to play when we spec Lightning, i.e. DPS.

 

If you're trying to support an inexperienced healer in a pug run, while overgeared yourself, lightning offhealing is definitely viable. If you're worrying about enrage timers, however, it's a really bad idea, so offhealing should be considered a minor utility at best.

 

Offhealing in Madness, however, is utterly laughable. Madness simply doesn't have the Force to do it, and utterly lacks access to Force regeneration talents that can help it recover from a burst of off-healing. LOL Noble Sacrifice doesn't count, killing your Force Regen for a tiny percentage of Force gain leaves your net positive Force somewhere near the single digits and your health lowered---LOLOLOLOLOLOL please excuse me while I laugh manically---LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Edited April 3, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[Master-Nala]

Well said Adrian. The skill tax issue was part of my initial laundry list, at least as it relates to the new placement of Egress. The concern that I have is that it's entirely obvious the devs, for whatever reason, want that level of sacrifice. For now, the skill tax issue will be in the bonus questions. After 2.7 we'll have a solid two weeks to see what you all really want to ask.

 

Also, I can think of ways to stick this in survival (via Egress) so stay tuned.

[AdrianDmitruk]

Well said Adrian. The skill tax issue was part of my initial laundry list, at least as it relates to the new placement of Egress. The concern that I have is that it's entirely obvious the devs, for whatever reason, want that level of sacrifice. For now, the skill tax issue will be in the bonus questions. After 2.7 we'll have a solid two weeks to see what you all really want to ask.

 

Also, I can think of ways to stick this in survival (via Egress) so stay tuned.

 

Do keep in mind that both seer and balance have been assessed Force Management taxes payable from telekinetics since launch in the same manner that telekinetics is getting taxed from seer now/after 2.7 with egress. Some of the telekinetics taxes were assessed effective in 2.0 with the big nerf to our stats scaling and the addition of accuracy to the stats we need (diluting our stat budget even further), but with the devs now expecting sages to make additional sacrifices to get the talent they should have acquired baseline when they gave commandos HtL baseline, only now does telekinetics pay the top skill tax bracket that seer and balance have been paying all along.

 

If skill taxes do make it into the round of questions, I'd like to see the issue addressed for all specs, as Egress is only the newest and latest example of a longstanding burden to our class.

Edited April 3, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[johnbgood]

I have a few topics I would love to get some commentary on. To wit:

 

1. Regarding an execute, can someone make the case for the need? TK probably shouldn't have one and Balance doesn't need one in PvP. Balance's problem is its DPS just needs a boost. Can someone articulate the problem an execute resolves? That's the support we'll need to back up a request like that.

 

2. Someone made a very adept argument regarding the skill tax suffered by Sages and how that would get worse in 2.7. I can see that for Balance, but is this truly a problem for TK or Seer? Give me your thoughts.

 

3. Off-healing. KBN suggests that Sage off-healing is very good. I'm personally skeptical. How do you all feel?

 

regarding an execute, i'm totally against asking for one. i think the desire just came out of jealousy of other dps-classes having one. the lack of of an execute makes sages unique . i'm totally happy filling the role of weakening multiple enemies and letting the other dps finishing them of. maybe nobody articulated the "problem" yet because there is none. an execute just does'nt fit for sages. the only ability used as an execute, project, is not affordable mana-wise for balance, and for TK it's already powerful enough. i cannot imagine an execute-talent that would not make us op.

 

regarding a dps-boost for balance, that should be done without boosting dmg in pvp. sages, both balance and telekinetics, are the only class i see constantly keeping pace with smash-monkeys' overall dmg in pvp. sometimes dot-gunslingers can keep pace too, but not on regular basis as sages do. it's fluff-dmg but it's heavily stressing the healers if there are some. with the smash-nerf coming in 2.7 we will be on top of the food chain. i can already hear the qq, be careful regarding that please.

 

regarding skill-taxes, i see no need for improvement for dps-specs. i tested all 3 specs on pts quite intensively for pve and the only thing i can remember that annoyed me was the changes to the bottom 2-3 lines in seer tree which left very little to no margin for variation when specced as pve-healer. as pts is down already i can't tell exactly what it was.

 

regarding off-heals, i agree with what KBN said about sustainability. off heals are powerful in pvp, but in high-end-pve for most encounters you just cannot affort off-heals dps-wise. draxus is a great example where it can be very useful. dps-requirements are very low, when healers are ported out it's great having off-heals from dps. i think a sage dps is most desireable in this fight. other example, nefra when you don't have a sage healer in the raid. TK-sages have no problem mana-wise to shield both tanks every 20sec, even balance-sages can afford the shields but sacrifice more dps by shielding due to the need for using noble sacrifice after or spamming TK-throw for regeneration rather than using their proc for disturbance. as dps-requirements are fairly low on nefra, and tank-dtps is high, thats a viable option imo. all-in-all off-heals' viability heavily depends on the boss-design in pve.

Edited April 3, 2014 by johnbgood

[judgeender]

1) Execute. An Execute would be nice, particularly in Madness/Balance. However, Executes serve to increase overall DPS, by increasing DPS on low health targets. Bioware has already indicated that they are looking to adjust DPS for Madness/Balance. In that thread, numerous suggestions on increasing dps with some form of execute (project as execute, increasing DOT damage on targets below 30% or a new talent) were made. Bioware appears to be heading in a different direction. While an Execute would be nice, I don't believe we can get both DPS brought up to par and an Execute on top of that (that would put our total DPS above others).

 

2) Skill Taxes. I did see the post yesterday. It does raise some interesting points, particularly in PvP specs. I didn't respond earlier because it was an issue I hadn't focused on before and I wanted to think about it more before responding. I have not done an analysis regarding Sage/Sorc skill tree taxes myself. It does require comparing our trees to other classes. I think it may be worth raising (and keeping the visuals question as a bonus fourth question). I would note that Balance/Madness has no real way to grab the new Egress without creating even more force management issues (something that even with the changes will still be an issue in PvP/multiple DOT target scenarios). While it is less of an issue in PvE, it is true that Sages/Sorcs really have very few "choose what you like" points.

I would also not try to put this into the survival question. Even though it involves Egress, I think it is a separate issue.

 

3) Off-healing. Been covered before but Off-healing is somewhat viable in PvP and low level PvE (story-mode and even Hard-modes). Off-healing is really not viable in NiM PvE Progression:

 

a) Enrage timers/fight mechanics generally require maximum DPS. Taking time away from DPS simply hurts the Operations chances of success given enrage timers/burn phases/fight mechanics.

 

b) Lack of Pushback Resistance compounds the problem. Importantly, the times when off-healing to keep the Operation alive is most needed is often during moments when their is AOE damage to the entire raid (think Titan VI final phase). DPS sages lack any form of pushback resistence on our heals. A 1.5 second heal can easily turn into 2.5 seconds (often resulting in less healing done than the corresponding damage taken during the cast time). Our 3 second heal can easily turn into 4 seconds or more.

 

c) Cost. While TK/Lightning may not have major force issues and can afford to use some heals (from a force management perspective), even with the changes in 2.7, Madness/Balance will still have force management issues if they are trying to maximize DPS by clipping force lightning/tkt or keeping DOTs up on more than 1 mob or even just trying to use static barrier as a crappy DCD. Healing really is not very viable.

 

In short, off-healing is great on paper, but does not really work very well in practice in NiM PvE progression.

Edited April 3, 2014 by judgeender

[MusicRider]

snip

That's a nice and detailed post... I guess it will have to be compacted but it explains the point in detail.

 

Just some minor corrections, not that they really matter for the question as hopefully it won't go to that long level of detail.

 

In PVE, telekinetics is taxed 5 to possibly 7 points in seer tree alone. 2.0 nerfed crit and alacrity scaling very harshly (along with forcing us to exchange alacrity which is important to casters for some accuracy in our stat budget), and quite frankly, we are expected to get those stats back via those 5 talent points at the bottom of seer even if not every sage does it. (Autocrit TB makes up for the crit loss somewhat, but unlike smash, it's really hard to argue that the rest of telekinetics' rotation is simply filler.) Of course with the devs unwilling to give us any form of off-GCD active mitigation whatsoever, any anti-ranged mechanic requiring intensive healing starts to make the healing received talent another skill tax as well. And of course those 2-4 points in balance (depending upon how much you will need healing) are an omnipresent tax too.

 

The arguement is still the same but the "tax" that TK pays both in pve and pvp is not in the seer tree but in the balance one (7 points in fact)... +6% crit for lightning strike (and FL) is kind of a must, in fact 6% crit on LS and FL >> +2% alac and 3% crit if I had to choose one or the other. For pvp given how much egress is important, you will have to lose out on the 6% crit bonus on LS... TK pays a much higher tax than balance in this respect.

Edited April 3, 2014 by MusicRider

[AlrikFassbauer]

Honestly I don't mind the animations on TkT and Project. Sure they could look a bit cooler but I have no idea what could be Jedi appropriate as animations and I'd rather have the devs spend more time on actual issues rather than aesthetics (yes, they spend a lot of time on that already).

 

Personally, I'd just be fine with just having BIGGER rocks. That's all I want. The animation as such can remain the same.

 

I just want to go away from the "thrown pebbles" look into an "thrown rocks" look. That's all I want. They don't need to be colourful, either.

 

 

By the way, could someone pleasye explain to me what the term "execute" actually implies ?

 

 

I have a few topics I would love to get some commentary on. To wit:

 

1. Regarding an execute, can someone make the case for the need? TK probably shouldn't have one and Balance doesn't need one in PvP. Balance's problem is its DPS just needs a boost. Can someone articulate the problem an execute resolves? That's the support we'll need to back up a request like that.

 

Why not - if I understood the term "execute" correctoly" just have the lightsabre strike for that ? It would be perfect, no ?

 

 

To answer the question:

 

[snip]

 

I'm not at all deep enough into the class to be able to judge any of this ... But your list tells me that the class as such appears to be horribly broken if there are so many unnecessary taxes (if I understood things correctly, that is).

Edited April 3, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Darth_Dreselus]

From merc answers:

 

We are slowly developing away from the idea that off-healing capabilities should lower the sustained damage output of skill trees that focus on dealing damage.

 

Important consideration.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[colemanron]

We are slowly developing away from the idea that off-healing capabilities should lower the sustained damage output of skill trees that focus on dealing damage.

 

Hahahaahhahaahhahahahah

 

Nuff said.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Hahahaahhahaahhahahahah

 

Nuff said.

 

MFW http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/wwjtd/files/2013/09/1341858117_You-Dont-Say-Meme-Rage-Face-Nicolas.png

Edited April 3, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Another idea, spawned by a thread in the Shadow forum right now. Almost completely forgot about this one as well. The tooltip for Mind Crush indicates that it should be doing more damage up front than it currently is. Testing from those folks over there indicate that unlike the standard ~30% mitigation from armor, it is getting mitigated by armor by 70% from its tooltip value. I'm under the impression the tooltip is wrong, but if the damage on this was bumped up to the expressed value then it would provide a dps boost to both Balance and TK while helping Shadows as well. Any thoughts?

[KeyboardNinja]

Another idea, spawned by a thread in the Shadow forum right now. Almost completely forgot about this one as well. The tooltip for Mind Crush indicates that it should be doing more damage up front than it currently is. Testing from those folks over there indicate that unlike the standard ~30% mitigation from armor, it is getting mitigated by armor by 70% from its tooltip value. I'm under the impression the tooltip is wrong, but if the damage on this was bumped up to the expressed value then it would provide a dps boost to both Balance and TK while helping Shadows as well. Any thoughts?

 

I've been meaning to dig out my calculator and test to see if it's the tooltip that is wrong or the game engine itself, but I haven't done it yet. My guess is that it is the tooltip, but it's hard to say. It would definitely be a substantial DPS jump if it were the engine.

[Master-Nala]

By the way, could someone pleasye explain to me what the term "execute" actually implies ?

 

 

As used in SWTOR theorycraft, an 'execute' is a damage ability or talent that either requires or does additional damage to targets below 30% of health.

 

For example, Spinning Strike for Shadows requires the target to be under 30% health, but does almost twice (1.9x IIRC) the damage of Double Strike.

 

Another example is the Dirty Fighting tree (Smugglers) has the 'Cold Blooded' talent that increases damage on damage over time (DoT) effects when a target is below 30% health.

[AdrianDmitruk]

That's a nice and detailed post... I guess it will have to be compacted but it explains the point in detail.

 

Just some minor corrections, not that they really matter for the question as hopefully it won't go to that long level of detail.

 

The arguement is still the same but the "tax" that TK pays both in pve and pvp is not in the seer tree but in the balance one (7 points in fact)... +6% crit for lightning strike (and FL) is kind of a must, in fact 6% crit on LS and FL >> +2% alac and 3% crit if I had to choose one or the other. For pvp given how much egress is important, you will have to lose out on the 6% crit bonus on LS... TK pays a much higher tax than balance in this respect.

 

Thanks for the correction to detail--as I'm 99% a healer (and 95% a PVP one of that!) I hadn't really noticed the more "specific" tax for telekinetics over in balance tree like that--but the point is that skill tax still remains, it's just payable from a different account

[Master-Nala]

Feedback section added, comments appreciated.

[AdrianDmitruk]

Feedback on skill tax section: Don't forget to mention seer is taxed an extra 2 points in telekinetics (beyond the 5 Force management points) to get the improvement to Force Armor

 

It just doesn't seem as noticeable because our full tree needs so much work that we don't want to take extra points in it anyway, haha.

[Benets]

watiing for another round of DEV quotes such as 'heal to full' and 'you don't know how to play your class' and other idiotic responses