Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[Master-Nala]

When the game launched the sage healer performed arguably the strongest amongst the healers. Some nerfs followed and yet we kept our spot in the spotlight: frankly because there was no competition. Then came 2.0 which ruined any and all heal balance and made sure that the only healer to bring for PvP was scoundrel/operative - regardless of skill they would outperform a sage/commando. Then came 2.6 and made sure that commandos were viable to bring, as well... Now we're wondering if we also will get a chance to shine?

 

How are you planning to solve the issue of that the sage is the only 100% cast-reliant healer in game? For example allow resplendance/force surge to decrease the cast time (and possibly cost) of deliverance by 33% per stack - we feel this would go a long way to increase the sages odds of healing while under heavy pressure where a static AoE heal might not be ideal in a dynamic environment (PvP).

 

Furthermore sages and sorcerers feel like as if noble sacrifice/consumption is a bad regen mechanic that is anti-fun and non-ideal in a PvP environment where we are already the first target to down: are you ready to agree that the squishiest healer in game might not have the need to remain dependable on a regen mechanic that only hastens their death?

 

What is your stance having set bonuses that change rotations? The sage healer is "forced" to get the PvE mystic 2 piece in order to reach as close as possible to viable and while doing so said sage healer (PvP) will never have good stats in open world and will have less incentive to grind ranked gear.

 

This is a good start for the healing question. I need to work on the actual question at the end though. Stay tuned.

[AdamLKvist]

This is a good start for the healing question. I need to work on the actual question at the end though. Stay tuned.

 

The actual short version of the questions eluded me I'm afraid...

Edited March 28, 2014 by AdamLKvist

[Benets]

Comparisons are bad. Because apparently only Sages & Sorcerers can heal to full.

 

This is the most idiotic excuse. If sage can heal to full, we should really heal to full, the self heals and the passive heal should compensate the lack of dps, so a sniper and a sage face to face should end the mach tied, cos the self heal should at least be equal the dps the sniper do. But its ridiculous, mend heal you for 4k, 6 if crit, everybody can out dps it. 1% of life heal in crittical, ridiculous, specially when others have similar benefit, 1% each 3 seconds while in cover.

[ML_DoubleTap]

How are you planning to solve the issue of that the sage is the only 100% cast-reliant healer in game? For example allow resplendance/force surge to decrease the cast time (and possibly cost) of deliverance by 33% per stack - we feel this would go a long way to increase the sages odds of healing while under heavy pressure where a static AoE heal might not be ideal in a dynamic environment (PvP).

 

I've never understood why most folks don't count Force Armor as a heal. I've always looked at as a Sage's version of SRMP or Trauma Probe. It even shows up as healing in PvP.

[AdamLKvist]

Comparisons are bad. Because apparently only Sages & Sorcerers can heal to full.

 

This is the most idiotic excuse. If sage can heal to full, we should really heal to full, the self heals and the passive heal should compensate the lack of dps, so a sniper and a sage face to face should end the mach tied, cos the self heal should at least be equal the dps the sniper do. But its ridiculous, mend heal you for 4k, 6 if crit, everybody can out dps it. 1% of life heal in crittical, ridiculous, specially when others have similar benefit, 1% each 3 seconds while in cover.

 

In all honesty, provided both classes have their CDs, I believe that the fight is even (more tinted towards the sage winning) than the other way around... This is of course subjective but still.

 

The damage, I feel, is great for PvP and I would not argue that we need a damage boost. However that is not the case for balance in PvE and we must not forget our sage brethren doing that kind of content.

[AdamLKvist]

I've never understood why most folks don't count Force Armor as a heal. I've always looked at as a Sage's version of SRMP or Trauma Probe. It even shows up as healing in PvP.

 

Edit: (I really must stop arguing in an attacking way)

 

Kolto Cloud, I feel, makes sure that the commando can keep a huge uptime on instacasts and I'm hesitant to compare it to salvation as its instant, heals for quite a lot and is frontloaded. Furthermore: force armor is of course a pro-active heal but its one with a 20-3-1.5 = 15.5 sec lockout, thats far weaker than SRMP or Trauma Probe simply because it can not crit... The bubbles are not force neutral as the equivalents of the scoundrel/commando are.

 

We have the bubble and the weak HoT for insta-casts but I believe that its not enough, not in comparison with the other healing classes.

Edited March 28, 2014 by AdamLKvist

[Master-Nala]

Force armor is of course a pro-active heal but its one with a 20-3-1.5 = 15.5 sec lockout, thats far weaker than SRMP or Trauma Probe simply because it can not crit... The bubbles are not force neutral neither as the equivalents for scoundrel/commando are energy neutral...

 

I've never understood why it has such a high lockout. It's like a 5-7k heal. Yes it's instant, but hell does that justify an 15 sec+ lockout?

[AdamLKvist]

I've never understood why it has such a high lockout. It's like a 5-7k heal. Yes it's instant, but hell does that justify an 15 sec+ lockout?

 

It seems to me that bioware intended for commandos to have an advantage in instantaneous casting and our lockout on bubble feels like a remnant from that time. Since then, though, scoundrels have far surpassed commandos in instant-cast healing (in a PvP environment) and as such the design approach to the classes that was held by the first DEVs should perhaps be overlooked and slightly adjusted?

 

Its, of course, incredibly dangerous to lower the cooldown of the bubbles I feel because they have no counterplay (and the ability itself can shield an entire team). I dislike abilities, setups and gamedesign that do not have counterplay. Makes for a boring experience to me...

 

Edit: I have played some WoW with my brother, we did some arena... I was healing on a Discipline Priest and Penance (Healing Trance) had a chance to proc a buff that made sure that the lockout from bubble was not applied when the bubble was so you could essentially shield your target twice in a row. On top of that penance (WoW's healing trance) is castable while moving. I just wish this class either copied the actual good stuff from WoW or wasn't afraid to stray from that path. The attempt of the AoE heal being instant was an attempt at breaking free but it did, in my opinion, too little for PvPers.

Edited March 28, 2014 by AdamLKvist

[NalivenKensen]

The actual short version of the questions eluded me I'm afraid...

 

Maybe something like this?

 

Sage seers are clearly meant to kite in the face of enemy opposition (and have reasonably good tools for kiting). But they only get 1 insta-HOT and every other heal is a long cast/channel. What does the dev team think about this? Is it possibly to buff seer's healing (perhaps via resplendence stacks) to reduce cast time / or provide HOT components?

 

Btw, I really like the raid viability question.

[ML_DoubleTap]

Edit: (I really must stop arguing in an attacking way)

 

Kolto Cloud, I feel, makes sure that the commando can keep a huge uptime on instacasts and I'm hesitant to compare it to salvation as its instant, heals for quite a lot and is frontloaded. Furthermore: force armor is of course a pro-active heal but its one with a 20-3-1.5 = 15.5 sec lockout, thats far weaker than SRMP or Trauma Probe simply because it can not crit... The bubbles are not force neutral as the equivalents of the scoundrel/commando are.

 

We have the bubble and the weak HoT for insta-casts but I believe that its not enough, not in comparison with the other healing classes.

 

I didn't say it was on the same level, just that it should at least be considered as an instant 'heal'. I don't disagree with you that it needs work, I was just disagreeing that sages are the "only 100% cast reliant healer".

[Ycoga]

Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in all play environments? Are there any plans to improve our current survival tools (Force Mend, Force Armor), perhaps by providing talents high in the DPS trees which move one of them off the GCD when cast on yourself?

 

Alright, the revised survivability question is pretty good ^^ Perhaps don't limit it to revising current tools - ask if there are more coming in the next updates.

 

'Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in all play environments? Are there any plans to improve our current survival tools (Force Mend, Force Armor, Force Speed), or introduce new ones; and could our existing tools perhaps be improved by the addition of talents high in the DPS trees which move one of them off the GCD when cast on yourself?'

 

For the bonus, I'm still keen on hearing more about melee sabers for sages.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ycoga

[judgeender]

I suggest the following changes (changes in bold):

 

In order to use Force Armor or Force Mend on yourself, you need to use a global cooldown (and in the case of Force Armor use resources). Force Barrier requires the Sage to stop performing their job to use. Those are not requirements other classes face to mitigate incoming damage and is simply an unacceptable trade off in most PvE situations. In Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where a raid member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire raid. In many of these cases, Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is mitigated by armor and Sages have the worst armor.

 

 

Retsigam - hmd Magenta - The Shadowlands

[AdrianDmitruk]

Why restrict taking on-the-GCD "defensive abilities" off the GCD to DPS only by adding talent bloat? (see Vengeance Juggernauts LOL) Yes the use of our defensive abilities requires time that DPS doesn't have in PVE. But DPS are hardly the only ones who both need love and would benefit from such changes. And besides, Bioware has just specifically given a lot of attention to our DPS with the planned 2.7 changes and I don't want to see Bioware answer with "We just gave you guys all these changes and now you're asking for the moon, h2f lol" while subsequently having an excuse to leave our more neglected spec as such.

 

I'd suggest broadening the question as really, it is applicable to all sages, regardless of spec (it's just different specs have different reasons for needing the questions asked).

 

The actual question

 

Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in all play environments? Are there any plans to improve our current survival tools (Force Mend, Force Armor), perhaps by providing talents high in the DPS trees which move one of them off the GCD when cast on yourself?

 

should be changed to

 

The actual question

 

Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in all play environments? Are there any plans to improve our current survival tools (Force Mend, Force Armor), perhaps by moving one of them off the GCD when cast on yourself?

Edited March 29, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[Master-Nala]

Recent comments incorporated. Good feedback all.

 

DRAFT OF THE SEER SPEC QUESTION POSTED. TEAR IT UP!!

 

I don't want to compare us to anyone else, that's what got Psirebral in trouble. I also don't think we can expect a completely new power. But I do think there are improvements to Force Armor, Force Mend, etc. that can help. In that vein, PvEers, do you think there's something that could be done with:

 

Cloud Mind (Similar to how it is turned into a cooldown for some Scoundrel and Trooper specs);

Restoration (Similar to powers such as Foreign object excisor)

 

Or other powers? I'm not considering putting them in the question, but in the feedback section.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Master-Nala

[AlrikFassbauer]

Project and Throw currently have snicker-worthy junk, rocks and pebbles animations that strike many as thoroughly un-jedi like and unpowerful. Moreover, in contrast with the lightning on the sith side, the coolness factor gap is huge.

 

I agree to that.

 

Nowadays I firmly believe that this is by design. Jedi and Sages specifically are desgned to look defensive, hidden, uncool.

 

The other side, however, for them it is a sheer display of power. Lightning looks so sool, it gives the player a feeling have having REAL POWAH.

 

The Sage, on the other hand is powerless, judging by the lightning animation alone.

 

There is only 1 positive point for Sages : By throwing tiny, puny pebbles they are NOT giving away their place in an PvP match. As someone has put it, Lightning is like a giant sign telling "HERE I AM !" Which works in two ways : 1. a display of sheer power "see ? I don't need to hide myself !" 2. it gives enemy players a clue where the Sorceror actually stands.

[Master-Nala]

I agree to that.

 

Nowadays I firmly believe that this is by design. Jedi and Sages specifically are desgned to look defensive, hidden, uncool.

 

The other side, however, for them it is a sheer display of power. Lightning looks so sool, it gives the player a feeling have having REAL POWAH.

 

The Sage, on the other hand is powerless, judging by the lightning animation alone.

 

There is only 1 positive point for Sages : By throwing tiny, puny pebbles they are NOT giving away their place in an PvP match. As someone has put it, Lightning is like a giant sign telling "HERE I AM !" Which works in two ways : 1. a display of sheer power "see ? I don't need to hide myself !" 2. it gives enemy players a clue where the Sorceror actually stands.

 

I don't see any purposeful issue there. I think Project does look cool. Heck throwing a droid at a guy looks better than 15 different lightning animation. TK Throw is the only one that I sort of understand.

 

To me, this is more an artifact of having to make mirror classes.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I hope you can fill Nibbons shoes and present some really decent questions that get a good answers from Bioware. You seem like you are putting a lot effort into this though so thats good

 

I agree. At lest he ? she ? tries. Nothing wrong with that if no-one else wants to do it (I won't since I don't have enough end-game experience yet. all of my concerns are about low- to mid-level Sage).

 

Interesting things that have long been unanswered. Please ask. Might rephrase to: 'Why was there a design decision to reduce the number of lightsaber animations in the Sage class, as compared to a class like Sentinel? The fact that it's ranged shouldn't factor in your answer, because of the existence of sentinel's Twin Saber throw, and the Guardian's Saber Throw; as well as Dispatch and Crippling Throw. Will you be adding or changing lightsaber animations for Sage so that they're more like a Jedi and less like a Wizard?'.

 

There have already been a few 2stat stick" discussions. I never understood why the Sage's / Sorceror's lightsabre had degenerated into an "stat stick" so much. Perhaps, I fear, they used The Emperor from ROTJ as a model for that, but ROTS Darth Sidious should have taught them otherwise - or Darth Tyranus.

 

Edit: If you want to add a question about lightsabers, I would add it as a 4th "bonus" question. I don't think visuals are something that should be the focus of the 3 questions. Something like, "Does Bioware have any plans to let Sags/Sorcs actually use their lightsabers?" If they answer it, great. If not, we remain where we are, with a stat-stick.

 

I agree to that.

 

Comparisons are bad. Because apparently only Sages & Sorcerers can heal to full.

 

This is the most idiotic excuse. If sage can heal to full, we should really heal to full,

 

Then we should perhaps simply ask them how they believe how Sages / Sorcs should heal to full. Asking for the intended rota, for example.

 

But on the other hand ... I think they've never given away a thing like that. The "optimal rota" is the trade secret of the devs ...

Edited March 29, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Master-Nala]

I agree. At lest he ? she ? tries. Nothing wrong with that if no-one else wants to do it (I won't since I don't have enough end-game experience yet. all of my concerns are about low- to mid-level Sage).

...

 

He

 

Nala = Alan backwards

[Dyvim]

I don't see any purposeful issue there. I think Project does look cool. Heck throwing a droid at a guy looks better than 15 different lightning animation. TK Throw is the only one that I sort of understand.

 

To me, this is more an artifact of having to make mirror classes.

 

I am fine with a "bonus" appearance question or "why are jedi reduced to looking like earth shaman rejects with rocks, junk, and pebbles" question, when the junk throwers were Sith. You and I have hashed through this, and we agree they mirrored the classes, and they did the sith inqs first. They also designed the class based on a sith model of direct damage, versus a more jedi model of reactive or reflective damage. But keeping in mind that THEY DID mirror the classes, which means they just slapped different animations on top of identical powers in most cases, that also strengthens the case for slapping some new, optional animations on top of project and throw NOW - and with the cartel market in place, EAWare would make money while doing it, with immediate return on their effort..

 

You know my proposal on this and have read it. I specifically proposed alternates that would move jedi away from rocks, junk, and pebbles (the snicker-trifecta) and into other CANON based options. And, as alternates based in the cartel market, players that like what they have now can keep the junk and pebbles. Furthermore the alternates I talk about are ALREADY ALL in the game in some form and could be pressed into service.

 

Now, for example, with the talk about stat sticks, there is this suggestion as ONE alternate for project (chunk a clunker)...

 

3) Saber Dance: Replace project with a saber throw on steroids...motion blurred and bad ***....consulars are the ones that can throw things and yet they can’t throw one of the MOST deadly things in the universe, that happens to ALREADY be in THEIR HAND - their lightsaber???? People have long complained that cons/sages use their saber almost NONE. Where here is a chance to change that.... That makes sense...also, a double-bladed throw for shadows would rock. Also, if the devs were worried about distinguishing it from other saber throws, again, this should be more refined....so let them throw the hilt and ignite the blade at impact, or some other such affect of being able to remotely ignite the blade. Would look awesome and distinguish it from other throws. We saw Yoda impale a clone with his saber in ROTS, so imagine a saber throw where the consular ignites the blade as it reaches the target and impales the target with it, then the con pulls the saber back to his hand....nice concept, as lore based as it gets.

 

In fact, it is in this game already, again, as a cut scene in the Esseles, except it is done by the sith end boss that throws and chokes the trooper up against a wall before he throws the saber, ignites it as it strikes the trooper to impale him, then yanks it back...so subtract the choking and sith face paint, and you get the idea.

 

So yeah, keep it as a bonus, but if you look at the number of threads and posts over the years complaining about the junk appearance, the weakness and poor quality of the animations, and the unwanted, non-canon theme it creates for jedi, it definitely deserves to make honorable mention in the bonus section. TWENTY years ago, DF2: Jedi Knight did things better...1) it followed the canon and had junk throwing as a darkside power, and 2) it had an interactive environment where the things you threw actually were in the environment, as opposed to have rocks magically conjured up out of starship decks, etc. If we wanted some junk conjuring earth shaman craptasm (the rocks and pebbles circling shadow tanks still makes me want to wretch every time I see it), we sure shouldn't have to play jedi in a star wars game to have it inflicted on us. The only rock throwing by a jedi in SIX movies was when Luke threw a rock, WITH HIS HAND, to activate the door in the rancor pit.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Dyvim

[Master-Nala]

I am fine with a "bonus" appearance question or "why are jedi reduced to looking like earth shaman rejects with rocks, junk, and pebbles" question, when the junk throwers were Sith. .

 

It would be my preference that the third official question deal with various appearance issues like using the lightsaber, the animations, etc. I have been working through a draft entitled, "WE DON'T FEEL LIKE JEDI" where I have included a BRIEF recapitulation of your concerns along with others.

 

Personally, I think the passion expressed by you and others warrant an answer. I am not seeing a groundswell of support behind a third balance based issue by comparison.

 

As I've said, just because I don't personally feel strongly about something doesn't mean it shouldn't be a question. That's not what a 'representative' is.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Chrisweaver]

I think it's pretty awesome that our class is in such a good place that one of our top concerns is the animations

As much as I despise jedi I would probably roll a Sage if there were multiple options for our animations

[Darth_Dreselus]

You know what. Given what joke of an answer last questions got, why the hell not. Throw in an appearance question as a tongue-in-cheek stab at BW.

 

I would like to see the redundancy of Benevolence worked into the Seer question.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Master-Nala]

I would like to see the redundancy of Benevolence worked into the Seer question.

 

Could you flesh that out for me. I think they would just restate what they said in the 2.0 discussion where they stated:

 

Better Benevolence: Previously the difference between Benevolence and Deliverance wasn’t as obvious or meaningful as we’d have liked. Now, Benevolence costs 70 Force and heals for significantly more. Benevolence should be a better resort when time and immediacy are of the essence, and Deliverance should be a better resort when Force-conservation is of the essence. Consequently, parts of the game where Force efficiency is less important, Benevolence is just a better heal. This makes Benevolence better for soloing and off-healing in Flashpoints and Warzones.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-jedi-consular-class-changes

[Master-Nala]

I think it's pretty awesome that our class is in such a good place that one of our top concerns is the animations

As much as I despise jedi I would probably roll a Sage if there were multiple options for our animations

 

Pre-2.7 it wouldn't have been, but the level of interaction from the devs has been amazing. There are other issues that we have but the devs have already stated they are looking into them so there's little reason to waste a question on those points.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Could you flesh that out for me. I think they would just restate what they said in the 2.0 discussion where they stated:

 

Just as an added paragraph

 

While Benevolence has its uses in emergency situations and off healing as a DPS, for Seer Sages this ability is very underwhelming and rarely used. In your 2.0 blog you mentioned that the ability is to be used when Force efficiency is not a concern. Unfortunately, in most emergencies efficiency is a concern as wasteful rotations will only lead to a prolonged emergency. Similarly, the Scoundrel ability Kolto Pack had an issue of being undesirable and has received a boost since. The Sage healing community would like to see a similar treatment given to Benevolence.

 

The stuff in italics is optional. It may be that it is just me feeling so strongly about it. If they repeat what they said on 2.0 let them but it has been a while and lot has changed.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus