Shadow PVE DPS buff.

[ShawnyBoi]

Are they looking at giving us any sort of a PVE buff for infil at any given time? I love my shadow and I love my big numbers (11k shadowstrikes ftw) but my guild is starting to push HM ops and I hear shadows fall FAR behind. I'm used to being in the top 3 dps for 16 mans but don't really want to give up that spot. Any advice would be nice, I have a geared Guardian, Sentinel and Shadow to choose from.

[thejollygreenone]

Are they looking at giving us any sort of a PVE buff for infil at any given time? I love my shadow and I love my big numbers (11k shadowstrikes ftw) but my guild is starting to push HM ops and I hear shadows fall FAR behind. I'm used to being in the top 3 dps for 16 mans but don't really want to give up that spot. Any advice would be nice, I have a geared Guardian, Sentinel and Shadow to choose from.

 

infiltration got a "buff" that was pretty ineffectual (in my opinion) in the last major patch, 2.5. this buff was basically just a slight base damage boost to clairvoyant strike, shadow strike (i dont remember if they went through with this), and whirling blow, and lowered the force cost of shadow strike, unprocced, to 40 from 50 i think it was. which when procced brought is from 12.5 force to 10 force.

 

force management is still an unavoidable problem for parsers, which is slightly less noticeable in a boss fight but still present. the base damage increase of CS and SS were supposed to add a bit to our ability to sustain decent numbers. it didn't. there's still a disgusting fluctuation in our numbers for a number of reasons, which proves to be pretty crippling in pve. they tried to give us some consistency, but the same old consistency problems exist and haven't really been acknowledged by the dev team. as far as i know, the dev team doesn't even recognize that there is a problem, since they haven't made any mention of it since 2.5, and even that mention and resulting change was extracting just a droplet from a sea of problems. and that's being optimistic of me, i would even argue that the changes they implemented are completely irrelevant to the problems that plague this spec in pve.

 

to make a long story short, they made a change in 2.5, it didn't do much but they haven't so much as made mention that they think there is still a problem (there is still lots of problems). because of that, i doubt we can expect any changes any time soon. one can hope, but i'd rather not get disappointed if i could have avoided it by recognizing that neglect of this class is nothing new.

 

with all that being said, the infiltration shadow isn't as far behind as it's made out to be, nor is it fine as it is, as i'm sure the dev team and pvp community believes. for a real comparison, the top dps classes and specs are ranging from 3800 to a ridiculous 4000 dps on a 1mil dummy. the best shadow out there, who i doubt is even human (joke), is able to squeeze 3600 dps out of his *** with good enough luck via infiltration, and can do slightly better as balance. the rest of the competitors for infiltration shadow in pve are hard pressed to hit 3400 dps on the same dummy while being just shy of full best in slot gear.

 

so to summarize how infiltration shadow is in the current raid environment: easy to learn, hard to master, impossible to compete (with classes such as guardian, sentinel, gunslinger, commando ). it will still preform well enough in any pve scenario (given that the lack of any decent aoe is acceptable), and with the right player, gear, and group, is able to clear all current content. they just have to work a little harder to get to that point for various reasons, and even at the end all be all be ready to preform worse than your peers on top of a wild inconsistency of being able to come close to doing so. so far i'm noticing the general time to kill a 1mil dummy of well preforming classes is in the 4minutes 20seconds range. at least 1 person from every class is able to hit this mark, with the exception of sage who the top is at 4minutes 31 seconds, and us, who our top is at 4minutes 38seconds.

 

so to finish answering your question; if you like all three equally and therefore only look at performance, sentinel will be the highest dps, with guardian trailing close behind, and shadow a couple hundred dps behind that. if you particularly enjoy shadow more than guardian/sentinel, then by all means play shadow, you won't be shunned from top end content or anything like that as long as you work hard at it and get good at it, and find a guild that will trust you to do so like i have. ^.^

Edited February 5, 2014 by thejollygreenone

[IInox]

holy **** I love this definition of infiltration jolly! It how i always thought but you explained really good and easy the situation:

 

easy to learn, hard to master, impossible to compete.

 

I add this on my signature LoL genius!

[Leafy_Bug]

You know, while I agree with many of the points in the thread, I will point out that sometimes it is not all about raw numbers. My progression team runs DP/DF 8M HM under 50 minutes each and we have a Shadow damage dealer. The potential of this class is clearly seen when you couple it with an Ataru Sentinel. Calphayus is a boss where the caster adds die within the first 3 second of the channeling or the crystals get killed with 15 seconds to spare.

 

 

Combine a good shadow infiltration player with a good combat player and burst phases are going to be so insane you will look the other way when it comes to sustained. If you look at Shadows and sentinels, you will notice one converging aspect : critical rating. Shadows need a lot of critical rating and this comes at a price. I play a watchman sentinel and I am sitting at 3800 on the dummy and my Shadow DPS guildie is sitting at 3500 on the dummy. He is three parts short of BIS 78, earpiece and implants, which are a rare drop. Now since he got the MH, his numbers have gone through the roof and what he does is not humanly possible. Berry, Knightrider also are a part of this group who are not human. While the difference between my sentinel and his shadow is 300 DPS a bit bigger than the claimed 5% I would like to remind that during the execute phase, he catches up at a faster rate than any of us. He can up his damage by 150 DPS.

 

 

 

What I have noticed since my guildie decided to join my team is that many infiltration shadows cannot manage their procs effectively, stealth out at the wrong time, do not see the whole picture and sometimes do not delay their abilities according to spinning strike (under 30%). Shadows are the most difficult class to play as damage dealers and one mistake in the rotation will get you force starved. If you master your cloak and blackout accordingly, do not miss any global cool downs, you will pull very nice numbers.

 

 

What shadows need, not to affect PVP, is a 4 piece set bonus restricted to PVE which can buff shadow strike by 10% for example (similar to the sentinel one) or better yet a % increase in main stat which will alleviate some of the critical rating requirements in favour of pure willpower and power.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

[Evolixe]

You know what.. Adding to the 4-piece set bonus is a pretty cheap fix.

 

But honestly.. don't make it worth switching for the PvPers and you have yourself the only fix that will ever get my stamp of approval because it won't affect PvP.

[keimox]

Deception / infiltrate need rework on RNG and force crit.

Nothing else...

[Evolixe]

Deception / infiltrate need rework on RNG and force crit.

Nothing else...

 

It doesn't need any reworks or class changes at all.

[keimox]

It doesn't need any reworks or class changes at all.

 

If rng affects your dps over 300 so then imo it needs rework.

[Evolixe]

If rng affects your dps over 300 so then imo it needs rework.

 

Over 300? You're doing it wrong.

 

 

Anyways:

 

4-piece: Increases the Critical Strike chance of your Clairvoyant Strike by 15% as well as increasing damage done to creatures by 10%.

 

 

Lamest fix ever, but it will work like a charm.

[keimox]

OFC i'm doing something wrong when rng can affect that much in dps.

[IInox]

infiltration needs a small fix imho.

 

you can't give just cri multiplier buff, we need crit chance too, 9%crit chance melee that applyed from FORCE CRIT isn't enough imho.

 

nerf the crit multip buff and buff general crit chance. a rebalance

[sinnaman]

They're not going to fix shadow's DPS. They give it all to the Sages. I've given up all hope.

[keimox]

nerf the crit multip buff and buff general crit chance. a rebalance

 

Something like that could work. And sure bw can do something for deception/infil. rng since they buffed vengeance jugs quite a bit. Guildie parsed around 2800 before 2.6 and 3100 after the vengeance fix with the same gear and with about the same rotation as before 2.6.

[Leafy_Bug]

Deception / infiltrate need rework on RNG and force crit.

Nothing else...

 

 

I understand where you are coming from but I think the solution is not in force critical but in the lack of mainstat and power compared to the other classes. If you look at parses, you will notice that the bulk of the damage comes from weapon based attacks which already have critical rating from the tree and from the bonus set. Force breach and project, while they hit like a truck, do not compare with Clairvoyant strike.

 

 

Now if you add a mainstat boost not only you will increase the damage for all abilities but Shadows could also lower the amount of critical rating they stack in favour of power. So it will be a double gain to pure raw damage. Force breach and project will hit harder, while Clairvoyant and Shadow strike will get their proper buff. Under 30% the 6%/9% mainstat boost will also increase spinning strike damage allowing shadows (higher crit, higher pew pew) to not only catch up but parse excellent numbers.

[Aelanis]

I understand where you are coming from but I think the solution is not in force critical but in the lack of mainstat and power compared to the other classes. If you look at parses, you will notice that the bulk of the damage comes from weapon based attacks which already have critical rating from the tree and from the bonus set. Force breach and project, while they hit like a truck, do not compare with Clairvoyant strike.

 

 

Now if you add a mainstat boost not only you will increase the damage for all abilities but Shadows could also lower the amount of critical rating they stack in favour of power. So it will be a double gain to pure raw damage. Force breach and project will hit harder, while Clairvoyant and Shadow strike will get their proper buff. Under 30% the 6%/9% mainstat boost will also increase spinning strike damage allowing shadows (higher crit, higher pew pew) to not only catch up but parse excellent numbers.

 

I think the idea of a main stat boost as part of the set bonus, while odd, is one of the more elegant solutions I've seen tossed around. I always thought it odd that Shadows got no mainstat boost, especially since we're so reliant on having a lot of critical chance.

 

As for Evo saying that there's no problem with Force Regen if you do it correctly, I guess I still have a bit more to learn. I'm already weaving Saber Strike in where possible to try to hit every project and breach on cooldown, as well as using Blackout and Force Cloak as often as possible to try to keep up max force regen, but is there anything else I can do to improve? I do wait on Force Cloak in order to let the natural CD of Potency finish, but is it better to force it to finish instead? I end up using Potency twice every Force Cloak cooldown, but I use Force Cloak less often. I think the way I'm doing it is a bit better for Potency, but it might not be as good for force regen. Suggestions?

[Leafy_Bug]

I think the idea of a main stat boost as part of the set bonus, while odd, is one of the more elegant solutions I've seen tossed around. I always thought it odd that Shadows got no mainstat boost, especially since we're so reliant on having a lot of critical chance.

 

As for Evo saying that there's no problem with Force Regen if you do it correctly, I guess I still have a bit more to learn. I'm already weaving Saber Strike in where possible to try to hit every project and breach on cooldown, as well as using Blackout and Force Cloak as often as possible to try to keep up max force regen, but is there anything else I can do to improve? I do wait on Force Cloak in order to let the natural CD of Potency finish, but is it better to force it to finish instead? I end up using Potency twice every Force Cloak cooldown, but I use Force Cloak less often. I think the way I'm doing it is a bit better for Potency, but it might not be as good for force regen. Suggestions?

 

 

 

Maybe the devs will look into this and allow us to test it out. Regarding your force issues, have a look at evo's streams when we run our content. Composition changes most of the time, ignore the wipes, and see how he does it. You will also see my shadow tank in there doing pew pew!

[Aelanis]

Maybe the devs will look into this and allow us to test it out. Regarding your force issues, have a look at evo's streams when we run our content. Composition changes most of the time, ignore the wipes, and see how he does it. You will also see my shadow tank in there doing pew pew!

 

Are you talking live streams? With my schedule the way it is, I hardly have time to watch live streams Recently, I've been making it in game to raid with my team (4 hours a week) and late at night to goof around on lowbies. Last night's EC NiM run was the first time I got to raid on an off night in a while.

[Leafy_Bug]

Are you talking live streams? With my schedule the way it is, I hardly have time to watch live streams Recently, I've been making it in game to raid with my team (4 hours a week) and late at night to goof around on lowbies. Last night's EC NiM run was the first time I got to raid on an off night in a while.

 

 

Not live, something like this :

 

http://www.twitch.tv/exilove/b/499182055

 

http://www.twitch.tv/exilove/b/500262222

[mmerry]

Here is my take on force regen for infiltration. On the dummy once you have cycled through your initial opener and blackout/cloak/blackout you basically have to manage your force as best you can until blackout comes back off cd. Usually I will need to weave in 1 saber strike per project cd if I know that blackout and cloak still have a long time on their cd. This is of course a rather general rule that I follow that changes if I am getting good and timely procs on shadow strike and profundity (the talent that gives you 10 force back when shadow technique deals damage). Idk if it is common sense, but if I have two stacks of circling shadows and I have a shadow strike proc I will wait until after project to use shadow strike. (everybody might already be doing this, but I think its worth mentioning)

 

Of course, dummy parsing differs quite a bit from actual raid fights. I have only done DF and DP a handful of times on my shadow, but in TFB and SnV NiM most of the fights that I used infiltration had periods of downtime due to mechanics and it was basically just a matter of bursting and then waiting due to how the fights are scripted. I think this allows you to be a little more reckless with your force than you would normally be if you were trying to do a sustained rotation.

 

Hope that helps some. I do have some older videos of TfB and SnV NiM on my youtube from when I was playing my shadow in progression during the summer if you want to check them out. Not all of them are infiltration but you can sift through the ones you want to watch.

 

SnV playlist

 

[thejollygreenone]

Here is my take on force regen for infiltration. On the dummy once you have cycled through your initial opener and blackout/cloak/blackout you basically have to manage your force as best you can until blackout comes back off cd. Usually I will need to weave in 1 saber strike per project cd if I know that blackout and cloak still have a long time on their cd. This is of course a rather general rule that I follow that changes if I am getting good and timely procs on shadow strike and profundity (the talent that gives you 10 force back when shadow technique deals damage). Idk if it is common sense, but if I have two stacks of circling shadows and I have a shadow strike proc I will wait until after project to use shadow strike. (everybody might already be doing this, but I think its worth mentioning)

 

Of course, dummy parsing differs quite a bit from actual raid fights. I have only done DF and DP a handful of times on my shadow, but in TFB and SnV NiM most of the fights that I used infiltration had periods of downtime due to mechanics and it was basically just a matter of bursting and then waiting due to how the fights are scripted. I think this allows you to be a little more reckless with your force than you would normally be if you were trying to do a sustained rotation.

 

Hope that helps some. I do have some older videos of TfB and SnV NiM on my youtube from when I was playing my shadow in progression during the summer if you want to check them out. Not all of them are infiltration but you can sift through the ones you want to watch.

 

SnV playlist

 

thanks for the contribution wild-berry

 

i pretty much agree with everything you just said. our force regen can be a bit of a problem on dummies in those times where you have to weave in saber strikes between each project (i do this too), i consider this a general dps loss even though it's necessary. but with that being said, the force issue is barely even noticeable when put to practice on a boss fight. there are some fights with close to 100% uptime where it can be a little pesky (nefra, arguably grob'thok, tyrans if lucky) and ultimately lead to more variance in end dps on these fights.

 

with all that being said, force regen is quite manageable for 90% of fights out there (any fight with really any downtime). it's only a problem that get's noticed when parsing against a dummy, which i would probably deem a problem that could go overlooked for quite awhile.

 

the real problems i see with infiltration are the inconsistency in force breaches and shadow strikes due to crappy procs. the way i see it, to obtain optimal dps one needs to have one force breach or one shadow strike (a potential large crit) within each project rotation. this is impossible because of rng and a few faulty mechanics.

 

i've said this for quite awhile, priority change number 1 for infiltration shadow in pve should be to fix the force breach proc bug where it will never build a stack of breachs if it procs shadow technique. and for that matter i'd like a change to make upheaval ineligible to proc shadow technique (to avoid double procs) and preferably the force potency annoyance of having project consume both charges if upheaval procs it aswell. the logical fix to project would to change upheaval to be considered dot damage instead of direct ability damage. there are certainly other changes i would like to see be made but these two are the most obvious faulty mechanics with seemingly simple fixes.

Edited February 5, 2014 by thejollygreenone

[ShawnyBoi]

I've been having issues with my DPS too like abilities NEVER critting despite having a very high crit chance. Whats the deal with that?

[mmerry]

I've been having issues with my DPS too like abilities NEVER critting despite having a very high crit chance. Whats the deal with that?

 

It just RNG. Given a large enough sample size your abilities should reflect your melee and force crit. Its really frustrating to use Force Potency and have the buff fall off without any charges being used simply because the game decided that even though your force abilities have ~85% chance to crit with the buff up, they rolled that 15% chance to not crit. Its rare, but it does happen enough to notice.

[thejollygreenone]

I've been having issues with my DPS too like abilities NEVER critting despite having a very high crit chance. Whats the deal with that?

 

it's called bad luck, and it happens to every shadow dps. get used to it wrecking your parses, with a community divided as ours is i see no changes to that in the future. you'll just have to fish for lucky parses to get acceptable numbers like the rest of us. unfortunately this cant be done on a boss -.-

Edited February 5, 2014 by thejollygreenone

[WooduckAUS]

If the changes to the 4 piece set bonus you speak of would fix our pve issues, it sounds as though the pvp community would probably drop the pvp set pieces and use the pve ones, unless they also made an op change to the pvp set bonus (yes, that hurt my head)....? I was under the impression infiltration was in a pretty good place atm in pvp, would this make us stupidly OP in pvp? So how do we fix one without making the other op?

 

If infiltration was at a reasonable place in pvp (burst) and certain boss fights in pve (if mechanics allow), how about we work on fixing balance as the sustained dps in the shadow spec?

 

It used to be a top tier dps pre 2.0 and then they took our SS away saying it was never meant to be part of the rotation. So they want us to be a dot watching spec.... ok, what if we have a new top tier balance ability that would bring us into line with the other sustained dps classes without giving us too much burst in balance. I would prefer my shadow strike back but that isn't going to happen, so, i was thinking something along the lines of a 4th dot. Something that could ONLY be applied when the other 3 dots are rolling and to make us not completely op, only available once every 30secs. Over a 5 min fight that would be around 200dps increase bringing us in line with the top tier dps classes.

 

It keeps the idea the devs want from the balance spec (dot watching), without making us op and giving us too much burst because there would be a large ramp up time. It wouldn't be overly effective in pvp because its only available once the other 3 dots are rolling, once every 30 secs. In pvp the player would be dead before you get the 4th dot rolling most of the time (i'm looking at you hybrid gunslingers, how many times after you've done all the ramp up in pvp, has the target died before finishing your wounding shots.....?).

 

This would fix one spec without making the other one op, in both pvp and pve. I know the peeps who want to run infiltration on every boss may not agree, but like the slinger's, what's wrong with switching specs between boss fights....?

 

Just a thought.

Edited February 5, 2014 by WooduckAUS

[thejollygreenone]

Just a thought.

 

why don't we just focus on balance for pve? because i don't really think that's fair. if we have 1 spec completely devoted to pvp that isn't functional in pve, and one the opposite, why wouldn't this apply to every other class?

 

honestly, if BW came out with a statement that this were to happen, i'd either quit the game or reroll classes. you don't see scoundrels being forced to play DF or scrapper in pve, nor do you see sages only playing balance or only playin tk in pve, so why do we have to go by this rule?

 

for that matter, i'd say focus guardians should have a role in pve (which they kinda do, AoE masters), and i'd also say tactics vanguard should be viable in pve too. it being too much work to balance a spec to be viable both in pve and pvp is not an excuse to completely neglect trying. if classes were only allowed 1 dps spec for pve, and 1 dps spec for pvp, then it wouldn't be fair unless every class had only 1 dps spec for pvp and 1 for pve. that's the way i see it anyway, i always hated the concept of pvp or pve exclusive talent trees, especially in my view that people should be able to use the talent tree they enjoy in the area of the game they enjoy without being punished by being unable to compete, otherwise what's the point in even playing?

 

tldr; i think both balance and infiltration deserve to be used in both pve and pvp, as does every other class with a spec that is under performing in one aspect of the game or the other.

Edited February 6, 2014 by thejollygreenone