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T.H.A.T - Tanks and Heals Against Tactical


Docmal

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Welcome to Gauntlet: The Old Republic.

 

Well for starters, I enjoy tanking a lot more than DPSing. So if I can't tank, I'd be unhappy. If you want a great example of why role neutral doesn't work, see GW2.

 

I realise the first quote was supposed to insult the game for having this type of content and obviously the second poster isn't used to a game or games where role neutral does work. In fact when I started my first MMO my comment was it's like gauntlet online what we have always wanted and called my friend.

Now I played MMO's for about 11 years without the trinity , I repeat without the trinity system , does that scare you ? You want the names of the MMO's I played without the trinity system ? Phantasy Star Online ver.1 , Phantasy Star Online ver.2 , Phantasy Star Online episode 1 & 2 , Phantasy Star Universe , Phantasy Star Universe ambitions of the illuminus , Phantasy Star Portable 2 and finally Phantasy Star Portable 2 Infinity.

I have actually requested something similar in SWTOR , not the non-trinity aspect but the random aspect from the final incarnation I mentioned above , well the PSU MMO's did have random area's too.

Well done BW , more random FP elements is a good thing , not just in FP's either spread that out more if possible.

 

Great thread OP , very funny that you fooled a few :).

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

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I personally don't like Kuat (since I prefer a more structured FP, like czerka), but naming GW2 as a role neutral game that "doesn't work" is silly, as it does work quite well in context. Unfortunately, more support-oriented builds get left in the dust in PvE but that is more due to the fact that you can avoid all damage, not a flaw with role neutrality.

I do see people complaining about roles in GW2, but it's mostly people who don't like that their role does not pull as much damage as another, or people get mad when they can't "play how they want" in whatever gear they want and do as well as those in optimized gear. These people are delusional because there will always be a meta in an MMO no matter how hard you try to balance it. The best you can do is make sure everyone gets their day in the sun.

 

IMHO the problem with GW2 PvE is that there was not enough of it. A trickle of additional paths/fractals with the majority of content being a Living Story event is just not really what I'm looking for in a game.

Edited by Beslley
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I realise the first quote was supposed to insult the game for having this type of content and obviously the second poster isn't used to a game or games where role neutral does work. In fact when I started my first MMO my comment was it's like gauntlet online what we have always wanted and called my friend.

Now I played MMO's for about 11 years without the trinity , I repeat without the trinity system , does that scare you ? You want the names of the MMO's I played without the trinity system ? Phantasy Star Online ver.1 , Phantasy Star Online ver.2 , Phantasy Star Online episode 1 & 2 , Phantasy Star Universe , Phantasy Star Universe ambitions of the illuminus , Phantasy Star Portable 2 and finally Phantasy Star Portable 2 Infinity.

I have actually requested something similar in SWTOR , not the non-trinity aspect but the random aspect from the final incarnation I mentioned above , well the PSU MMO's did have random area's too.

Well done BW , more random FP elements is a good thing , not just in FP's either spread that out more if possible.

 

Great thread OP , very funny that you fooled a few :).

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

 

LOL, if role neutral worked I would have heard of one of those games. I haven't, or I just don't remember them.

 

Im fine with tacticals, they are kind of fun like the solo or 2 man instances in rift.

 

But this game already had a problem with getting people to 55 solo and with no idea what to do in a group. Now they are actually being taught how to be bad in a real fp.

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LOL, if role neutral worked I would have heard of one of those games. I haven't, or I just don't remember them.

 

Im fine with tacticals, they are kind of fun like the solo or 2 man instances in rift.

 

But this game already had a problem with getting people to 55 solo and with no idea what to do in a group. Now they are actually being taught how to be bad in a real fp.

 

Well the first game I mentioned won many Bafta awards and also got huge acclaim for using a language system that enabled anyone to communicate with each other , to a certain extent , in any language. Well considering you are playing a sci-fi MMO it seems strange you don't know their history but no matter , you missed a lot of fun though :).

 

Don't play Rift can't comment.

 

At least it is group content , I too don't really like the fact that many think of this MMO as a single player game. I get your point though with the Esseles and Black Talon going down the same route all the early group content is basically neutral role now , that might cause a problem , we shall see.There was a level 15 person in my group last night and played pretty well , maybe these role neutral ones are just a quick fix for DPS people. Maybe we should explain to the new people how tough the latter FP's can be and about the trinity I don't know.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

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Do you ever want to have a chance to get a queue for a normal fp again?

With this tactic, you will end up on a lot of ignorelists

 

Personally I have a good number of tanks and healers, and yes even dps, on the ignore lists of my 55s. I tend to only ignore people who are not team players and really piss me off, and guess what, tanks are the majority of that (that I run into, at least). And yet, my queue times don't change...

 

As for role-neutral, I like them, even I don't really need another source of basic comms. With 21 alts that will eventually hit 55 with companions tagging along, more planetaries and basics both are always useful in the long run.

Edited by Macarrin
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I realise the first quote was supposed to insult the game for having this type of content and obviously the second poster isn't used to a game or games where role neutral does work. In fact when I started my first MMO my comment was it's like gauntlet online what we have always wanted and called my friend.

Now I played MMO's for about 11 years without the trinity , I repeat without the trinity system , does that scare you ? You want the names of the MMO's I played without the trinity system ? Phantasy Star Online ver.1 , Phantasy Star Online ver.2 , Phantasy Star Online episode 1 & 2 , Phantasy Star Universe , Phantasy Star Universe ambitions of the illuminus , Phantasy Star Portable 2 and finally Phantasy Star Portable 2 Infinity.

I have actually requested something similar in SWTOR , not the non-trinity aspect but the random aspect from the final incarnation I mentioned above , well the PSU MMO's did have random area's too.

Well done BW , more random FP elements is a good thing , not just in FP's either spread that out more if possible.

 

Great thread OP , very funny that you fooled a few :).

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

 

It wasn't really meant as an insult.... it's just the basic premise. Any group of players who can blast stuff faster than in can blast them wins. Thus, Gauntlet (which I loved playing with random people when it was an arcade game).

 

To take it a step further, though, it is a bit of an indictment of trying to take that concept too far. I understand wanting a mechanism to get people involved in groups before they get to max level. That is sorely needed in just about every MMO. But, what do you do once they hit max level and have never played the content style it requires? You have essentially the same dilemma.

 

Personally, I will reserve judgement until I have played it enough (on my tanks, healers and dps toons). To me, it is merely another rep grind. Not good, not bad, just how it is.

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Personally I have a good number of tanks and healers, and yes even dps, on the ignore lists of my 55s. I tend to only ignore people who are not team players and really piss me off, and guess what, tanks are the majority of that (that I run into, at least). And yet, my queue times don't change...

 

As for role-neutral, I like them, even I don't really need another source of basic comms. With 21 alts that will eventually hit 55 with companions tagging along, more planetaries and basics both are always useful in the long run.

 

I would bet the vast majority of those bad tanks are dps quing as tank. If swtor wants to fix the dps que problem role neutral isn't the answer.

 

The first thing they need to do is make the groups bigger, more dps in each group. I really cant believe they didn't see this problem when they thought up 4 man groups.

 

Second they need to give incentives for tanks and heals to que, incentives that only tanks and heals would want because you don't need more dps queing as tanks and heals just for the incentives or quick que times.

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I would bet the vast majority of those bad tanks are dps quing as tank. If swtor wants to fix the dps que problem role neutral isn't the answer.

 

The first thing they need to do is make the groups bigger, more dps in each group. I really cant believe they didn't see this problem when they thought up 4 man groups.

 

Second they need to give incentives for tanks and heals to que, incentives that only tanks and heals would want because you don't need more dps queing as tanks and heals just for the incentives or quick que times.

 

Incentives are nice... and can be done, I agree.

 

Part of the issue with tanks queuing, though, is that the comm gear for tanks is beyond abysmal. Alacrity as their filler stat is just absurdly stupid.

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Incentives are nice... and can be done, I agree.

 

Part of the issue with tanks queuing, though, is that the comm gear for tanks is beyond abysmal. Alacrity as their filler stat is just absurdly stupid.

 

This is nice example how reverse psychology works, BW got data that there is no enough tanks in leveling and GF/PUGs and decided to force those that exist to grind twice more for base set with usable stats ... just to carry rest of population. No wonder why they got reversed result - most of tanks just stopped doing any GF/PUG content.

And alacrity/accuracy enhancements are only 1 issue related to commendation gear for tanks.

- No planetary comm gear at all (low level tanks with DPS stats... ouch).

- No sane implants in any commendation tier

- No good enhancement in any commendation tier (DPS/Heal have 1 at least ... even it is cost 120 comm per enhancement)

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Phantasy Star Online ver.1 , Phantasy Star Online ver.2 , Phantasy Star Online episode 1 & 2 , Phantasy Star Universe , Phantasy Star Universe ambitions of the illuminus , Phantasy Star Portable 2 and finally Phantasy Star Portable 2 Infinity.

 

Those weren't/aren't really MMOs, though, they're more like 3D SciFi Diablo with an ingame lobby. The original PSO even had an offline mode (and it seems like PSU has one, too).

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Bioware just needs to combine the stats for tanks so we can be as interchangeable as healers are. That should help fix the severe tank shortage and do away with these "tactical" flash points that are really just dps playgrounds that require no skill or teamwork to accomplish.

 

 

A talent in the tanking tree could convert certain stats to boost defensive stats rather than offensive stats to allow tanking in the same gear the player would use for dps.

 

Plus tanks are really the only class that must have two completely different armor sets in order to use a different spec tree effectively...which really isn't fair and only serves to discourage people becoming tanks.

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It's not that either aren't needed... the FP's are just able to be completed with or without tanks or healers if done carefully. I've done the Czerka FP's, for example, both having to heal our tank and not heal them. It all depends on who you're grouped with I guess.

 

I believe they designed these new FP's more so for newer or lower level players and for those who just want a change and don't want to wait around in queue. I'm lucky that my only character is a healer so I pretty much never have to wait, ha ha, but I see the need for it for other classes.

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My experience so far as a healer in lower leveled / bolster instances of Kuat ... more mobs than usual are beating on me because tanks/dps are doing their own thing, pulling multiple packs without regard to who else is pulling their own pack, etc. It seems like a nice enough instance that gets a little frustrating when it feels like others are not having to pay attention to the degree that I must to keep folks from dying.

 

Don't sign me up for T.H.A.T. but I'm reading the pamphlets again.

 

ps: it would be nice to see more than reputations / tokens drop in the instances.

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For SM stuff I am fine with the "tactical" aspect of it. Anything to make queue times go down is a plus for me. If the elitists want to maintain the proper Tank/Heal/DPS scheme in a flashpoint, then they need to queue more often on their tanks and heals instead of going off and leveling a FTM class.
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It's not that either aren't needed... the FP's are just able to be completed with or without tanks or healers if done carefully. I've done the Czerka FP's, for example, both having to heal our tank and not heal them. It all depends on who you're grouped with I guess.

 

I believe they designed these new FP's more so for newer or lower level players and for those who just want a change and don't want to wait around in queue. I'm lucky that my only character is a healer so I pretty much never have to wait, ha ha, but I see the need for it for other classes.

 

The Czerka Fps can be solo'd in story mode once you get to a certain gear level. I think doing one with no tank on hard mode would be very challenging, since the bosses still put out very substantial damage.

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I would bet the vast majority of those bad tanks are dps quing as tank. If swtor wants to fix the dps que problem role neutral isn't the answer.

 

The first thing they need to do is make the groups bigger, more dps in each group. I really cant believe they didn't see this problem when they thought up 4 man groups.

 

Second they need to give incentives for tanks and heals to que, incentives that only tanks and heals would want because you don't need more dps queing as tanks and heals just for the incentives or quick que times.

 

Yeah PSU had 6 player groups not sure why SWTOR hasn't got them but that might be a suggestion for Bioware , can you make some 6 player group content please ?

 

Cheers.

 

BadOrb.

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For SM stuff I am fine with the "tactical" aspect of it. Anything to make queue times go down is a plus for me. If the elitists want to maintain the proper Tank/Heal/DPS scheme in a flashpoint, then they need to queue more often on their tanks and heals instead of going off and leveling a FTM class.

 

LOL!

 

Yeah... that's why tanks/heals don't queue. Brilliant insight.

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Those weren't/aren't really MMOs, though, they're more like 3D SciFi Diablo with an ingame lobby. The original PSO even had an offline mode (and it seems like PSU has one, too).

 

Well you could argue PSO was a lobby game ( there where many lobbies though , the football / soccer mini game one was the most fun ) , but nope PSU was not it had many areas and you had to go through content to get to certain areas. Yeah on PSO you could level up offline but because of duping etc they decided to keep PSU's offline and online modes separate for that game. Sci-fi Diablo is a bit of a harsh explanation of the two games IMO , but you may have yours.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

Edited by BadOrb
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The only problem I have with these flashpoints is that the lack of role specifics made them too easy. Since their made to not have heals or tank they have low damage output. Since their made to be possible for four tanks or healers you end up with mobs with no health. This ends up being just ALOT of mobs with no health and no damage. Just takes time to go throuht it all. Sure I can respec to dps and run it with three other people. Why would I do that when i am a tank with a healing companion and can walk through it alone. Remember when you solo you win every roll.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining. I like the Kuat Drive Yards. I just really hope they release a hm with better rewards.

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Yeah PSU had 6 player groups not sure why SWTOR hasn't got them but that might be a suggestion for Bioware , can you make some 6 player group content please ?

 

Cheers.

 

BadOrb.

 

Actually reasons tanks not queue are 2

- Player (mostly DDs) stupidity, ignorance and jerkiness - increasing their number by 100% you mean 100% bigger chance for another brain dead/ignorant/jerk player, if they do that (have in mind that FPs have to be remade too) no sane tank will queue anymore.

- Double/triple (if you go for DPS off set) commendations grind forced by BW over tanks.

 

Only way GF in this game to work again is total rework of leveling so no brain dead player could level to 55, creating account wide ignore system, so jerks will be out of game and make separate drops in FPs for tanks or rework tanking gear so it would not have totally useless stats on it and tanking itself so it generate agro via direct DPS and multiply DPS via DR stats tanks have.

For PvP it may be rebalanced as tank stance lowering DPS against players.

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Incentives are nice... and can be done, I agree.

 

Part of the issue with tanks queuing, though, is that the comm gear for tanks is beyond abysmal. Alacrity as their filler stat is just absurdly stupid.

 

Yeah gear for tanks sucks, but just giving tanks good gear wont fix much. People will just gear faster then quit doing fps because they don't need the gear anymore, which is why most good tanks who you would really want to be tanking for you don't que.

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