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The Foundry, or what the hell is up with the Jedi Order? Also spoilers


Xilizhra

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Having just done the Foundry flashpoint... well, it was a flashpoint I really wanted to do because it seemed lore-heavy, and I was completely right. I more or less knew about the major events, but what really surprised me was the mob composition in the final sequence: Jedi Knights, many Masters no less, working alongside extermination droids. Which gives the very strong implication that, as opposed to the Republic just being duped by Revan into creating a project they didn't really know about, the Republic did know and was on board with this genocide project... or, at the very least, a not-insignificant portion of the Jedi Order knew and was willing to actively support this.

 

It's really kind of a shame that this seems to be addressed only on the Imperial side. Granted, it's most definitely the mission an Imperial with their loyalty wavering needs to drive it home that this is a brutal fight for the Empire's very survival, but not giving Republic PCs, especially Jedi, a chance to look into Republic and Jedi complicity with very large-scale genocide seems like a badly missed opportunity.

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Having just done the Foundry flashpoint... well, it was a flashpoint I really wanted to do because it seemed lore-heavy, and I was completely right. I more or less knew about the major events, but what really surprised me was the mob composition in the final sequence: Jedi Knights, many Masters no less, working alongside extermination droids. Which gives the very strong implication that, as opposed to the Republic just being duped by Revan into creating a project they didn't really know about, the Republic did know and was on board with this genocide project... or, at the very least, a not-insignificant portion of the Jedi Order knew and was willing to actively support this.

 

It's really kind of a shame that this seems to be addressed only on the Imperial side. Granted, it's most definitely the mission an Imperial with their loyalty wavering needs to drive it home that this is a brutal fight for the Empire's very survival, but not giving Republic PCs, especially Jedi, a chance to look into Republic and Jedi complicity with very large-scale genocide seems like a badly missed opportunity.

I got the impression (or maybe it's just my own personal head!canon) that all the Order as a whole knew was that Revan had a plan to win the war, and they either sent some Jedi as backup or a fair number of individual Jedi decided to help him.

 

By the time The Foundry Flashpoint occurs, I'm thinking one of two things happened to explain the Jedi there still supporting Revan:

 

a) he never filled them in on his full plans to go genocidal on the Empire - they just think he's building an army of droids to support/bolster the Republic army and make sure they win any military engagements against the Empire. HK only tells his full plans to the Empire's strike team when he's gloating and convinced he's about to "exterminate" them.

 

b) Revan has seduced them to his side by this time, just as he seduced his followers during the Mandalorian Wars - remember at that point he was able to convince a whole army's worth of Jedi to convert all the way to outright calling themselves Sith.

 

I agree though, hearing about the final outcome and the fallout after the fact from a Republic perspective would have been nice.

Edited by DarthDymond
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Is that really how Revan's place in this story ends?

 

Pretty lame to basically "resurrect" someone solely for the purpose of doing so. When I freed him I was shocked to see him somehow alive in this timeline and wondered what direction the story would take..........talk about disappointment.

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Is that really how Revan's place in this story ends?

 

Pretty lame to basically "resurrect" someone solely for the purpose of doing so. When I freed him I was shocked to see him somehow alive in this timeline and wondered what direction the story would take..........talk about disappointment.

 

So many people see it that way, which is sad. His story is really good and this is a great end for him, if it is the end (he doesn't die at the end, he disappears with his clothes, not becoming one with the Force). What do you think would happen if someone was stuck in the Emperor's head for 300 years?

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So many people see it that way, which is sad. His story is really good and this is a great end for him, if it is the end (he doesn't die at the end, he disappears with his clothes, not becoming one with the Force). What do you think would happen if someone was stuck in the Emperor's head for 300 years?

 

I guess as a huge KOTOR fan who plays through at least once a year putting him in this game seems like a silly little forced "add" or "nod" to players like myself but really just accomplishes diminishing the character.

 

For someone who has never played the KOTOR games or hasn't in a long time I'm sure it isn't a big deal but to me Revan is more than just another random FP boss for some random Imps to kill.............there is just so much lore behind him for that to be it. Honestly, I would rather they left him out of the game rather than put him in as an insignificant side quest.

Edited by Kain_Turinbar
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Is that really how Revan's place in this story ends?

 

Pretty lame to basically "resurrect" someone solely for the purpose of doing so. When I freed him I was shocked to see him somehow alive in this timeline and wondered what direction the story would take..........talk about disappointment.

I, by comparison, thought it was very effective. Take a character who wasn't even that much of a character to begin with, turn him into a completely unlikable scumbag, and deliberately torpedo the chances of bringing him back at some point in the future while retroactively tainting the memory of everything else he was involved in.

 

Then again, I never liked Revan all that much, and I liked canonical Revan even less. So I might be biased.

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I, by comparison, thought it was very effective. Take a character who wasn't even that much of a character to begin with, turn him into a completely unlikable scumbag, and deliberately torpedo the chances of bringing him back at some point in the future while retroactively tainting the memory of everything else he was involved in.

 

Then again, I never liked Revan all that much, and I liked canonical Revan even less. So I might be biased.

Why not?

 

Also, given the lack of a body and such, he might theoretically return at some point.

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I, by comparison, thought it was very effective. Take a character who wasn't even that much of a character to begin with, turn him into a completely unlikable scumbag, and deliberately torpedo the chances of bringing him back at some point in the future while retroactively tainting the memory of everything else he was involved in.

 

Then again, I never liked Revan all that much, and I liked canonical Revan even less. So I might be biased.

 

I find your opinion refreshing. I'll never understand why people put Revan so much higher then the player characters in this game.

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Realistically, they're there for the same reason they jammed that massacre of Korriban into the timeline: to make the Republic look like jerks and justify the Empire's actions in some way.

 

As far as making it work in story, eh. I have no idea. Revan pollutes every story he's involved with in swtor. I'm still trying to figure out how he amassed such a significant republic and Jedi force (comprised of people who just let ships dock at their top secret station unchallenged provided that there's someone able to awkwardly fake a totally-not-an-Imperial-accent over the comm first) some time between acts one and two, yet at the beginning of act three, the Jedi order are hugely surprised and completely unaware of what the Emperor was doing this whole time.

 

Why would he have to dupe anyone into anything ? To the Jedi, I imagine Imperial victory is simply not an option. It's not a stretch of the imagination that many of them would consider any means to stop the Empire to be acceptable.

I don't imagine anyone within the Jedi order is keen to let the Empire win, but that's a long way from literal genociding virtually their entire population. It's kind of a stretch to assume they'd adopt the 'victory at all costs' approach given that such is completely against everything they've ever taught and stand for.

Edited by Bleeters
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I don't imagine anyone within the Jedi order is keen to let the Empire win, but that's a long way from literal genociding virtually their entire population. It's kind of a stretch to assume they'd adopt the 'victory at all costs' approach given that such is completely against everything they've ever taught and stand for.

 

They would be neither the first, nor the last Jedi to turn against what they had been taught their entire life in order to accomplish their goals.

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Why not?

 

Also, given the lack of a body and such, he might theoretically return at some point.

I thought the lost memory thing was obnoxious.

 

The dispute between Revan and the Jedi Council over the Mandalorian War has never been described in satisfactory terms, in my opinion, which makes it extraordinarily difficult for me to understand his character. Same with his conduct of the war. All we get are boilerplate comments about willingness to do terrible things for victory or absorb casualties or whatever, which frankly read like statements about the military by people who think they know about command in warfare but don't actually have a clue. It was very difficult for me to understand how that person became Sith before SWTOR. Once SWTOR came out, of course, we learned that he fell to the dark side because of encountering the Emperor on Dromund Kaas, because that makes so much more sense.

 

I also disliked Revan's redemption, because I generally feel that it's become so ridiculously common to redeem somebody from the dark side in Star Wars media that it's almost meaningless. Luke drawing his father back to the light was one thing. Ulic Qel-Droma finding peace on Rhen Var after years of exile and an eventual mentorship was another. Revan...I dunno, but that seemed to me to be the straw that broke the eopie's back, so now we've got redemption being treated extraordinarily casually in the EU. Whatever happened to "forever dominating one's destiny"?

 

To be entirely fair, I disliked other things about KotOR that predisposed me negatively to Revan for reasons that didn't have much to do with his character. Apart from HK-47, I thought most of the companions were annoying, and I didn't like having HK around when I was doing nice little girl things. I didn't like the options for character faces, which reduced immersion a great deal; unlike with, say, Commander Shepard, or even the Jedi Exile, Revan felt like playing as somebody else instead of role play. There were also lore tweaks I didn't like, and other inventions that just felt goofy.

 

And yeah, they might bring Revan back, I suppose, if they're really desperate for a villain. I can't claim to predict what BioWare's going to write next. I think it would be silly and ineffective, and that the Foundry was an adequate bookend for the character's career, but that doesn't mean BW's writers think the same way I do. Fair enough.

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I thought the lost memory thing was obnoxious.

 

The dispute between Revan and the Jedi Council over the Mandalorian War has never been described in satisfactory terms, in my opinion, which makes it extraordinarily difficult for me to understand his character. Same with his conduct of the war. All we get are boilerplate comments about willingness to do terrible things for victory or absorb casualties or whatever, which frankly read like statements about the military by people who think they know about command in warfare but don't actually have a clue. It was very difficult for me to understand how that person became Sith before SWTOR. Once SWTOR came out, of course, we learned that he fell to the dark side because of encountering the Emperor on Dromund Kaas, because that makes so much more sense.

 

I also disliked Revan's redemption, because I generally feel that it's become so ridiculously common to redeem somebody from the dark side in Star Wars media that it's almost meaningless. Luke drawing his father back to the light was one thing. Ulic Qel-Droma finding peace on Rhen Var after years of exile and an eventual mentorship was another. Revan...I dunno, but that seemed to me to be the straw that broke the eopie's back, so now we've got redemption being treated extraordinarily casually in the EU. Whatever happened to "forever dominating one's destiny"?

 

To be entirely fair, I disliked other things about KotOR that predisposed me negatively to Revan for reasons that didn't have much to do with his character. Apart from HK-47, I thought most of the companions were annoying, and I didn't like having HK around when I was doing nice little girl things. I didn't like the options for character faces, which reduced immersion a great deal; unlike with, say, Commander Shepard, or even the Jedi Exile, Revan felt like playing as somebody else instead of role play. There were also lore tweaks I didn't like, and other inventions that just felt goofy.

 

And yeah, they might bring Revan back, I suppose, if they're really desperate for a villain. I can't claim to predict what BioWare's going to write next. I think it would be silly and ineffective, and that the Foundry was an adequate bookend for the character's career, but that doesn't mean BW's writers think the same way I do. Fair enough.

I never played KotOR, so I can't directly comment, but I will say I have no problem at all with switching from the dark side to the light side; after all, switches in the other direction happen all the time, and "forever dominate your destiny" was proven directly wrong within the same original trilogy, so I never took it as gospel to begin with.

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It seems pretty out of character for the Jedi Council that we see in the game. Satele Shan and many other Republic or Jedi characters seem to reject use of massive superweapons and so forth such as Hammer Station or The Shock Drum. What would be the point of doing so if they were willing to endorse Revan exterminating the entire empire with droids?
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They would be neither the first, nor the last Jedi to turn against what they had been taught their entire life in order to accomplish their goals.

True enough, I guess. Still, you'd think this would warrant some kind of explanation or acknowledgement from other Jedi in other stories. The last time a bunch of Jedi left to follow Revan to war, everyone was practically bending over backwards to never shut up about it. Several of their members including masters leaving to help commit genocide with the great great whatever grandfather of the current grand masters seems like something that would come up at some point.

 

I also have to ask wonder exactly Revan even gets any kind of military protection, let alone a whole fleet - he's essentially just some guy who turns up after 300 years. The Jedi order might care - not sure how they'd care enough to just go with him on some insane mission considering the last they knew of him was when they kicked him out, and without him apparently ever telling any of them why he's alive or why he wants to do what he wants to do, but sure, Jedi are chumps, I can roll with it - but everyone esle presumably had orders to follow. I guess maybe Republic fleet admirals were just really convinced by his demented ramblings? I don't know.

Edited by Bleeters
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Sith are probably a sensitive spot for many jedi. In general the Jedi really would like for everyone to have ponies and rainbows and flowers, and of course they spare defeated enemies, but sith .... Those are the champions of the dark side and the reason the otherwise probably agreeable imperials keep warmongering. I imagine for some this could be a reason to seriously contemplate eliminating them.

 

I know it is weak and the culprits are vitiate and the cult of ultradarwinism, not the descendants of sith-people, but i don't know what else could draw all those lightsiders to the foundry defense, if revan explained what his droids do.

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I find your opinion refreshing. I'll never understand why people put Revan so much higher then the player characters in this game.
And I'll never understand why people can't understand that people can like Revan!

 

In regards to the OP, I've already made a case for Chancellor Saresh's desire for Sith extermination. Whether the Jedi knew of Revan's plans here or not I can't be sure, but they've participated in genocide before and could do so again.

 

I certainly feel that the Sith feel they are fighting for survival. In fact I think Marr said something along those lines...

Edited by Beniboybling
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And if you think about it, the dark side has dominated his destiny....trapped for 300years playing "pick my brain" with the emperor. Getting one of his best friends killed because he decided to put his trust in Scourge. Not to mention having to suffer the worst of ALL fates.....being the main character of that POORLY WRITTEN POS BOOK & HAVING HIS LEGACY S#!T ON BY Drew Karpyshyn. (Who imo should NEVER EVER be allowed to say Star Wars, much less write another SW book).
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I find your opinion refreshing. I'll never understand why people put Revan so much higher then the player characters in this game.

 

I do agree to this as well.

 

And I'll never understand why people can't understand that people can like Revan!

 

In regards to the OP, I've already made a case for Chancellor Saresh's desire for Sith extermination. Whether the Jedi knew of Revan's plans here or not I can't be sure, but they've participated in genocide before and could do so again.

 

I certainly feel that the Sith feel they are fighting for survival. In fact I think Marr said something along those lines...

 

Marr is fighting for the survival of the Empire. The survival of the Pure Sith or rather, the fact they're dying out is a different matter altogether.

 

What I find more disturbing however, is the fact that HK-47 says they're going after people with Sith ancestry, which comprises a huge chunk of imperial civilians, even though I find the final number far fetched but regardless...

 

What about Republic citizens, for whatever reason, have Sith blood running on their veins? What of those? Either way, Saresh only became a Chancellor far after the Foundry flashpoint and even though I find her kinda creepy, I doubt she'd endorse genocide on such a scale.

 

And if you think about it, the dark side has dominated his destiny....trapped for 300years playing "pick my brain" with the emperor. Getting one of his best friends killed because he decided to put his trust in Scourge. Not to mention having to suffer the worst of ALL fates.....being the main character of that POORLY WRITTEN POS BOOK & HAVING HIS LEGACY S#!T ON BY Drew Karpyshyn. (Who imo should NEVER EVER be allowed to say Star Wars, much less write another SW book).

 

At the end of Foundry, the buff he has, which stands for the Ataru fighting style, reads as "Total Balance", only to change for the Shii-Cho one and saying "power of the Dark Side".

 

Dude did fall yet again it would seem. :cool:

Edited by Darth_Wicked
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He is a war hero and living legend. Dont's see a reason not to give him a fleet, especially when he promises to destroy the Empire. After all, much of republic military would gladly commit genocide if it will stop the war.

A living legend that most people don't seem to remember beyond some vague recolections that he was a Darth, apparently. There's that statues on Corellia, I guess, but whenever he's brought up at any other point by scholars, cultists, Revan himself etc, other people tend to not know what they're talking about.

 

I mean, the Jedi would know, sure. They've archives for this junk. But then, the last the Jedi saw of him was when they kicked him out of the order, so.

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A living legend that most people don't seem to remember beyond some vague recolections that he was a Darth, apparently. There's that statues on Corellia, I guess, but whenever he's brought up at any other point by scholars, cultists, Revan himself etc, other people tend to not know what they're talking about.

 

I mean, the Jedi would know, sure. They've archives for this junk. But then, the last the Jedi saw of him was when they kicked him out of the order, so.

 

Deliberately one may assume, since Jedi - and perhaps the Republic higher ups - are probably not that fond of former Jedi who fell, were redeemed and abandon the Order only to pursue other interests, such as having a family, not to mention the countless Jedi Revan led astray, when he went to confront the Mandalorians.

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A living legend that most people don't seem to remember beyond some vague recolections that he was a Darth, apparently. There's that statues on Corellia, I guess, but whenever he's brought up at any other point by scholars, cultists, Revan himself etc, other people tend to not know what they're talking about.

 

I mean, the Jedi would know, sure. They've archives for this junk. But then, the last the Jedi saw of him was when they kicked him out of the order, so.

That's probably just a gameplay mechanic to explain his history to people who might not have played KotOR. Kinda like how half of Mass Effect is devoted to people carefully explaining to Shepard stuff that she should've known from, like, school.

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That's probably just a gameplay mechanic to explain his history to people who might not have played KotOR. Kinda like how half of Mass Effect is devoted to people carefully explaining to Shepard stuff that she should've known from, like, school.
Ha, Shepard didn't go to school. He grew up on the streets! :D
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Ha, Shepard didn't go to school. He grew up on the streets! :D

 

His / her background was actually optional. Either lived on the streets back on Earth, on this ship where his parents were stationed or a colonist in some newly established colony if memory serves me right.

 

Been a while. Either way, I LOL'ed. :cool:

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