Whose stupid idea was it....

[Soul_of_Flames]

AoE attacks simply shouldn't do anything to a flagged opponent if you aren't flagged. Regardless of if the flagged person is the only one in the AoE or not. The only way you should be able to flag yourself is to:

1. Toggle your flag manually.

2. Perform a direct, single target ability on a flagged player (attack, heal or revive).

3. Assist a player or NPC in combat with another player via single target abilities.

 

If I wanted to PvP, I'd...

A) Join a PvP server.

B) Join a WZ.

C) Equip PvP gear.

D) Group up with friends to defend ourselves.

E) Attack an enemy player.

 

But I don't want to PvP and I don't want to be obligated to PvP when I'm clearly on a PvE server for the exact reason of not wanting to PvP. So don't give me crap about "you should be more aware" because that's just stupid. If people take the precaution to join a PvE server so they don't have to open world PvP if they don't want to, they shouldn't have to be "aware of their surroundings" from other players. What's the point of taking anti-pvp precautions on a PvE server? That's stupid. If they are going to make us do that then what is the point of having PvE servers to begin with?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Soul_of_Flames

[GalacticKegger]

On my infected Guardian, I nonchalantly stand away from a flagged group of Imps until the disease timer clicks into stage 3. Then I Force Leap into the middle of them, throw out an Awe and explode my green entrails all over their little soiree. Edited January 22, 2014 by GalacticKegger

[CosmicKat]

Sorry.. but this is nonsense. So much of the game is pre-empted from any PvP at all. But.. on planets where the two factions are in fact able to co-mingle ------> contested area.

 

 

 

Lazy -------> players so careless and so needing to be protected and have their hands held 7/24 that they will not apply situational awareness and care in how they play an MMO.

 

The entire point to a PvP flag system is to never, ever, force players into an activity that they don't want to participate in. The player has made the choice to NOT PvP.

 

Hypocrisy -----> forum dwellers so averse to ever being wrong that they will argue up is down today and down is up tomorrow.

[mikebevo]

AoE attacks simply shouldn't do anything to a flagged opponent if you aren't flagged. Regardless of if the flagged person is the only one in the AoE or not. The only way you should be able to flag yourself is to:

1. Toggle your flag manually.

2. Perform a direct, single target ability on a flagged player (attack, heal or revive).

3. Assist a player or NPC in combat with another player via single target abilities.

 

If I wanted to PvP, I'd...

A) Join a PvP server.

B) Join a WZ.

C) Equip PvP gear.

D) Group up with friends to defend ourselves.

E) Attack an enemy player.

 

But I don't want to PvP and I don't want to be obligated to PvP when I'm clearly on a PvE server for the exact reason of not wanting to PvP. So don't give me crap about "you should be more aware" because that's just stupid. If people take the precaution to join a PvE server so they don't have to open world PvP if they don't want to, they shouldn't have to be "aware of their surroundings" from other players. What's the point of taking anti-pvp precautions on a PvE server? That's stupid. If they are going to make us do that then what is the point of having PvE servers to begin with?

Changing my play style to fit the environment, that is stupid. Everything should be tank and spank with nothing that messes with my precious rotation. No interrupts, no cleanses, no push-backs, no stuns, no AoE damage, I shouldn't have to think at all. Patch this now, TOR 3.0 no awareness or skill needed.

 

Sounds boring to me, but to each his own.

Edited January 22, 2014 by mikebevo

[anwg]

I don't know why this is so difficult for Bioware, if you aren't flagged yourself, nothing you do should affect a flagged player, friendly or hostile. This is how it worked in Everquest Classic so the technology is there.

[Sangrar]

...to put the imps and the pubs in the same cave in the Rakgouhl event? Instead of focusing on the event everyone is focusing on avoiding each other in fear (from what I saw it was mostly the imps fault today, no offence imps).

 

thats not really unique to this event first of all, second of all during the time the rakghouls came in 2012 I was a lowlevel fighting amongst a bunch of 50's so I was ganked alot but I handled it. Just group up with a high level and go, its what I have done with some friends and guildies, on the low levels do the local and easy/quick quests while getting more intensive on high level characters otherwise it will be alot more difficult. As for what you said, its again not unique ot this event, so get over it its nothing new its what happens when you are on a pvp server.

[Soul_of_Flames]

Changing my play style to fit the environment, that is stupid. Everything should be tank and spank with nothing that messes with my precious rotation. No interrupts, no cleanses, no push-backs, no stuns, no AoE damage, I shouldn't have to think at all. Patch this now, TOR 3.0 no awareness or skill needed.

 

Sounds boring to me, but to each his own.

You're reply makes absolutely no sense in reply to what I said. You're implying them I'm asking them to dumb the game down. No. I'm asking them to enforce the design of a PvE server.

 

A player joins a PvE server so they don't have to be forced/grieved into PvP. But if people are being pulled into PvP without their consent then what's the point of it being considered a "PvE" server? If people on a PvE server want to PvP, that's fine. But there should be no way for a player who does not want to PvP to be pulled into PvP without them specifically starting a PvP action themselves.

[Khevar]

Sorry.. but this is nonsense. So much of the game is pre-empted from any PvP at all. But.. on planets where the two factions are in fact able to co-mingle ------> contested area.

 

Lazy -------> players so careless and so needing to be protected and have their hands held 7/24 that they will not apply situational awareness and care in how they play an MMO.

Don't you think the best solution would be for Bioware to fix the problem with the PvP flagging system?

 

If I'm not flagged, I cannot attack a flagged player. if I use an AOE attack on mobs, the AOE attack does no damage to a nearby flagged player. Outside a Flashpoint or Op, I cannot heal a flagged player.

[mikebevo]

You're reply makes absolutely no sense in reply to what I said. You're implying them I'm asking them to dumb the game down. No. I'm asking them to enforce the design of a PvE server.

 

A player joins a PvE server so they don't have to be forced/grieved into PvP. But if people are being pulled into PvP without their consent then what's the point of it being considered a "PvE" server? If people on a PvE server want to PvP, that's fine. But there should be no way for a player who does not want to PvP to be pulled into PvP without them specifically starting a PvP action themselves.

I play a slinger, sawbones and a watchman, FlyBy, sawbones only damage (flyby) and twinsaber throw, I have done the missions now 4 times and have yet to be exploited into PvP. I haven't been forced into anything. I just understand how to play my classes and how to play in this environment. I actually find it less boring and I have been using flyby on both my sawbones and slinger, sawbones because it is all my damage and slinger because I dare anyone to auto flag me. Most of the people I have seen being flagged, is either healing or people with auto-target on (and they deserve getting destroyed).

[MaximusRex]

People are getting really lazy these days IMO.

 

It's a game, entertainment, being "lazy" is the whole point.

 

The game should not force flag players. The game should not prevent us from using certain abilities just because an opposite faction flagged player might be nearby.

[Damask_Rose]

thats not really unique to this event first of all, second of all during the time the rakghouls came in 2012 I was a lowlevel fighting amongst a bunch of 50's so I was ganked alot but I handled it. Just group up with a high level and go, its what I have done with some friends and guildies, on the low levels do the local and easy/quick quests while getting more intensive on high level characters otherwise it will be alot more difficult. As for what you said, its again not unique ot this event, so get over it its nothing new its what happens when you are on a pvp server.

 

I'd argue that this is the worst designed event for being on a pvp server. I'm inclined to think the developers designed a fun event for pve servers and chose to ignore how the event would translate on pvp servers. While I don't think they will adjust this event, since they don't like to revisit old content, we can hope that in the future they will pay more attention to how events will play out on all servers.

 

So here is a recap of previous events on pvp servers. Note the recurring theme of spreading people out.

 

The first Rakghoul was for low levels on up and was spread all over Tatooine. The server populations were way smaller then too. I was able to do the event with all of my level appropriate alts and only got ganked a few times.

 

The Chevin event also spanned multiple planets, 2/3 were low level with no pvp. Nar Shada was the only planet that had possible pvp, but even there the event had people roaming around the whole planet. I think it also took place before the mega servers, so the population wasn't as dense.

 

The Gree event is only for 50+ and has bolster to bring everyone up to 55. (I don't know how effective this is since I've only used lvl 55s). The imp and pub bases are also far enough away with a decent questing area for both that it is quite possible to do a full set of dailies without ever seeing the opposing faction, even in a full instance.

 

The bounty hunter event takes place on multiple planets in multiple locations on each one. Half of them are low level planets that have no pvp. The other start in safe zones. Then there are enough locations questers go to that camping one out of 6 or so spots isn't that tempting.

 

This is the first event that places a large level spread into a concentrated area with 90% overlap.

[dipstik]

ever since the ilum pvp fails, they have been trying to use events and future content to get world pvp. i think it is working. nightmare pilgrim, new world boss, outside the tunnel boss, heroic area. oricon, section x and outside TC on makeb all have great design for funneling players in to world pvp (even black hole a little). if u are on a pvp server and u hate pvp, then it sucks... but if they get the flagging system down, it should be okay for pve server people that dont like pvp.

[divinecynic]

Is it wrong that all the whining only makes the event more enjoyable to me?

 

Not at all.

 

Just like all the whining is keeping me and a few friends from doing the event at all.

[Rafaman]

Ok, ok. I'll admit it. It was my idea.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Coming from a guy on the RP/PvP I love it!

 

However I can understand the frustration on PvE servers. My suggestion (ever since flagged punks walked into AOEs) is to make it so that two people must be flagged in order to engage each other in PvP.

[CommanderKeeva]

The fallacy to your statement here is your desire that PvE servers be strictly PvE only. They are not. This is not EQ.

 

Like it or not, the PvE server rule set does include PvP if you are flagged. Now, you can debate that until the end of time, but it is what it is and they are not going to change that.

 

So that's your baseline. NOW... like all MMOs where PvE servers also allow PvP..... when you do not want to PvP then it's your responsibility to avoid self-flagging situations. Yes.. players do have responsibilities when it comes to controlling their play style. It's been pointed out by numerous people in this thread that AoE wash will set your flag......so... if you don't want to PvP... then when in a contested area.... be more careful and prudent about your play. It's not something you are forced to deal with 7/24 on a PvE server.... so stop over blowing the challenge here.

 

Too many people want their MMOs so sanitized that there is no thought or challenge involved in play. It's sad, IMO.

 

You can argue that AoEs should not cause you to flag..... but this has NOTHING to do with the event...it's true any time you play in a contested area. Further.... you know this.. yet continue to expose yourself to flagging through carelessness or lack understanding of the server rules.

 

AoE immunity from PvP flagging --------> suggestion box forum. Orangize and create a thread and hit it every single day until you get a gold response. Bring friends to the thread to do the same. IF it's such a monumental issue, I'm sure you could organize a 10,000 post thread in the suggestion forum.

 

Without trying to blow up the problem, I'd like to point out that these claims have some merit in the sense that victims of exploitation should not be further penalized. What I mean is that, in the end, someone who prefers not to PvP ends up doing that against his will, by the actions of another player. Regardless of what you think of PvP or people in particular who avoid PvP, PvE servers exist so that people who prefer not to be eligible for PvP while leveling have the chance to do so. Anyone who claims that a PvE server is strictly for PvE is wrong, clearly as each server grants access to all types of gameplay. In this sense, you're right.

 

However, it should be noted that it is not up to the player entirely whether or not he wants to partake in PvP. The player should not go to extreme lengths to avoid PvP when just trying to do dailies. While it is true that a very circumspect player can avoid accidental flagging (clearly as I have not been flagged yet against my will during this event, plenty of times during the Gree event), it should be noted that gankers have no shortage of tricks to bait people into PvP, some of which have nothing to do with AoE abilities. All of them are hard to defend against.

 

1. A popular method is that a stealthed player positions himself directly on top of a mob that he knows is going to drop mission item loot. As the mob dies, he decloaks in the hope that the unsuspecting player will accidentally right-click on him and attack him with whatever he has bound to 1. I've seen this done to people multiple times during the Gree Event at the Gree comlink droids (strangely people from usually the same guild I am not allowed to name here; but even their name reflects their favorite pastime: ganking other players). After having fallen victim to this method once, I removed instant attacks from 1 when I participate in events.

 

2. Another popular method is that a stealthed player positions himself near an enemy in the hopes that a player will accidentally tab to him or have auto-target on and accidentally shoot/hit him. SS Slingers and MM Snipers have very fast abilities (Trickshot/Followthrough) and they're prone to accidentally shoot flagged players even if they don't want to, should they have auto-target on. After I got killed for accidentally shooting someone, I learned to turn off auto-target when playing as a Sniper/Gunslinger. Looking back, it was my fault for not paying enough attention.

 

3. Then stealthed players can just run into AoE. Plain and simple. This is probably the easiest to defend against, by not using AoE abilities. But some classes and specs have their entire rotation built around AoE abilities (for example Tactics Vanguards, AP Powertechs, Focus Knights and Rage Warriors). And in the heat of battle while fighting against a mob, should they die if they reflexively press Flamethrower or Pulse Cannon, the ability they are always using? Well, sometimes, they do. Solution: respec to something less AoE dependent?

 

4. And then inviting players while questing with a healer companion. It has nothing to do with ganking and I think this is the leading cause while people get PvP flagged. As a precaution, I always set my healer companion to passive before I accept invitations or invite other people.

 

So, yeah, at the end of the day you can go out of your way to avoid being accidentally flagged for PvP. You can drop stealth scan on mobs, rebind abilties, respec and desummon your healer companion. If you do all this, you have a very strong chance that you will not be flagged for PvP against your will. The problem is that most people forget about these preventative measures they can take and I honestly cannot blame them for it. They seem a little bit too excessive, even to me.

 

And the truth is, these gankers are quite few when compared to the overall people who participate in the event. The vast majority of flagged players do so intentionally: they are looking for trouble, whatever it will bring. And once someone has been flagged against his will, even honest players won't know the difference.

Edited January 22, 2014 by CommanderKeeva

[Vhaegrant]

I'm sorry but no. I'm on a pve server going into an event to do pve. I know how to pve already and it's not a L2P issue. I already did L2P. what you are suggesting as other apologists of this issue have is a workaround. it basically says "let the gankers (exploiters) do what they want." we the honest players not exploiting a serious flaw in the events who *already know how to play pve* should not HAVE to modify our playstyle in order to accommodate exploiters.

It's a shame that you can't see that changing your combat rotation is part of what keeps the gameplay refreshing. I see it as the most interesting part of such an event. And even then it's not a major playstyle change... I have my standard rotation for general safe area play and the AOE light variant for when I go near PvP sensitive zones.

 

I don't mean to come across as hostile or attacking you personally but the notion that we should simply let bygones be bygones and allow the exploiters to continue to exploit by modifying our playstyle is just wrong to me on so many levels.

I have a pretty thick skin and at the end of the day it's just my opinion At the same time my bloodpressure has been pretty stable through the event, I've run through it start to finish nine times now on six characters with minimal rotation changes, and not been flagged once. Even when there have been flagged players in the group.

 

this again forces me to posit another "workaround" that was suggested in another thread during the last gree iteration when were also at the end of our tethers: if we get force -flagged simply queue for a war zone then drop which removes the flag. you know we just might "accidentally" stay in past the start time. hey it's just a workaround. I mean, who cares whether and how it affects other players, right? we'll just keep letting the exploiters exploit and pay it forward.

Or you could try being careful in the area and not get flagged in the first place. Obviates any need to drop into warzones (which would probably take longer than 5 mins to proc at the moment anyway)

 

OR we can actually seek to have the issue taken care of: offending accounts actioned, and exploit resolved in a coming patch. I really REALLY don't think that asking that force- flagging not exist on a *pve* server is asking too much.

Or we could just chill out. See it as an opportunity to broaden your skill set in which abilities you rely on in combat (and companions) and realise that a certain player type actually enjoys getting these types of reactions.

[EzioMessi]

Except you're combining two different groups of people in an attempt to make your point.

 

PvEers are not asking for open world PvP, PvPers are.

 

So why should PvEers, the vast majority of the population, be punished because of the PvP dimbulb population?

 

Flags are there for a reason. Noone should be able to make someone PvP who doesn't want to PvP.

 

Why should the majority of PvPers be blamed because noobs run around exploiting the broken flag system on PvE server? Ask for a fix to that stupid system all you want, but don't blame those noobs' exploits on all other PvPers.

 

I assure you that if all of the "PvP dimbulb population" were in the mood to exploit your *** off (like you seem to imply), you'd all ragequit-unsub.

[Vhaegrant]

I would add, TURN OFF AUTO-TARGET, watched a slinger yesterday and this morning shot a flagged Imp that was just standing there scanning a network beacons. Then they yell exploit in chat, I wanted to yell L2P, but didn't want to be a complete jerk.

 

I will live and let live, but I promise if you shot me I am going to attack you. So some people need to learn how to tell the difference from a exploit and the fact they don't know how to play. Auto-Target off! It is not needed and can get you killed both in PvP or PvE (see shields in NiM EC or adds on NiM TfB).

 

Also yesterday and this morning I saw more cases of players from both fractions helping each other than PvP action. Just watch your targets.

 

Thanks for pointing that out, think I turned off Auto-target on day one and had forgotten all about it

[EzioMessi]

Exactly my point!

 

Why is it that always PVE'ers are expected to adapt their playstyle to the whims of PVP'ers? If people want to PVP, they should roll a toon on a PVP server. There they would have willing opponents and could play the game the way they like instead of griefing others. Unless of course, girefing others is their way of playing the game...

 

Am I really reading this? PvErs complaining that they "always" have to adapt? Really? There are people who strictly PvP who are still forced to first finish the class story for 4 classes before they can just buff themselves, and are forced to run dailies to earn credits. There's even a guide on the PvP forums about earning money, and it starts with something like, "If you want to strictly PvP, you will not earn much money". If strict PvPers can through it, strict PvErs should sure as hell be able to handle a minor annoyance like this.

 

Seriously, it's laughable when PvErs have to make an extremely minor change to their playstyle and complain about it like the sky's falling (don't throw a bloody AoE. How hard is that? It's not like Smash Maras are FotM in PvE anyway, so it won't break your playstyle).

[CosmicKat]

Why should the majority of PvPers be blamed because noobs run around exploiting the broken flag system on PvE server? Ask for a fix to that stupid system all you want, but don't blame those noobs' exploits on all other PvPers.

 

I assure you that if all of the "PvP dimbulb population" were in the mood to exploit your *** off (like you seem to imply), you'd all ragequit-unsub.

 

Because... and this is the reason why PvP almost killed MMO's before they got off the ground...

 

A single person who wants to grief can ruin the gaming experience of many. In most every case of griefing, the offender is not interested in actual PvP, they are only interested in being a dick.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Because... and this is the reason why PvP almost killed MMO's before they got off the ground...

 

A single person who wants to grief can ruin the gaming experience of many. In most every case of griefing, the offender is not interested in actual PvP, they are only interested in being a dick.

 

Fix the flag system, PvEs can kill mobs... PvPers can kill mobs and each other. Tada.

[CosmicKat]

Fix the flag system, PvEs can kill mobs... PvPers can kill mobs and each other. Tada.

 

No argument from me on that.

 

It's an age old MMO problem that was fixed over a decade ago. One of several solutions to common MMO problems that Bioware chose to ignore.

[Aries_cz]

Sorry.. but this is nonsense. So much of the game is pre-empted from any PvP at all. But.. on planets where the two factions are in fact able to co-mingle ------> contested area.

 

 

 

Lazy -------> players so careless and so needing to be protected and have their hands held 7/24 that they will not apply situational awareness and care in how they play an MMO.

 

Sorry Andryah, I have to go against you here.

By not flagging, player makes a conscious choice to not want to participate in PvP. Therefore, it should not be possible to attack any other players while that is turned off. It would even solve the problem of griefers who seek out flagged people while unflagged themselves and attack them, thus gaining the advantage of first strike, which is often crucial.

Make this relatively simple change (or so it seems, at least) to the flag system, and everybody is happy.

 

Note, I do not play on PvE server, I like balanced PvP, and yet I still support this.

[EzioMessi]

Because... and this is the reason why PvP almost killed MMO's before they got off the ground...

 

A single person who wants to grief can ruin the gaming experience of many. In most every case of griefing, the offender is not interested in actual PvP, they are only interested in being a dick.

 

So the actions of one or two PvPers justify blaming all of us "dumbulbs". Yeah. Makes total sense.

 

And here's your options:

 

1. Whine until Bioware fixes the flag system.

2. Avoid using AoEs in densely populated contested areas (*coughcough* long and narrow tunnels *coughcough*).

3. If you or someone you know has PvP gear or the very highest NiM tier of PvE gear, wear it, and teach these noobs a lesson. If they wanted to PvP and choose to do it through attack PvE geared players, they are likely easy to defeat.

 

Now, Bioware may or may not fix it, and who knows when. So you could choose to play on the side of caution with no AoEs, or have a bunch of friends knock the gankers around. I actually know a few guilds on my PvP server that only attack Imps who go around in groups of 8 ganking single players. I'm assuming there are PvE server equivalents of such guilds. Ask them for help maye?

 

Either way, throwing insults at PvPers for what a handful of noobs do is not helping anyone (intended for Zorvan, not Cosmic).