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[Guide] Vengeance & Rage Juggernaut DPS for Endgame PvE


Iwipe

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Hey everyone, recently a couple of my guildies have started writing a series of class guides for my site for every spec/role for PvE endgame. They are designed to be beginner friendly but also carry enough information for players looking to do Nightmare operations. We have just finished up our Juggernaut DPS guide and I thought I would share it.

 

Updated for patch 2.6

 

Contents

 

You can find the following contents inside the guides

  • Gearing and Stats priority
  • Gearing Overview
  • Ability Explanation
  • Opening Rotation
  • Rotation scenarios/rage management for Vengeance and Cascading Power priority for Rage
  • Rotation Strategy
  • AoE rotation priority
  • Video of rotation on an operation dummy
  • Sample Parse Analysis
  • Tips & Tricks

 

If you are interested in the other guides we have written you can find all the healing ones here, all the tanking ones here and all the DPS ones here.

 

Enjoy and let me know if you have any suggestions, criticisms, or critiques in here or in the comments section below the guides! :)

Edited by Iwipe
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This guide is mediocre at best.

 

I see alot of insults thrown out and not alot of feedback. Seems like someone is really butthurt. Anyways Carl will be responding to your points later and if there are anything really wrong and not a matter of opinion we will change it later.

 

Also, the opinion about our shadow tanking, ya we said shadows make the best offtank because of their skill sets but they can equally be a maintank. Seems you might have missed that part.

 

Lastly, I prefer guides written by players who have played the class and know what they are talking about, not those made by players who take bits and pieces from other guides and piece them together. Why? Because I used to do that back in Rift years ago so I know exactly the problems of it: 1) You risk misinterpreting whatever was said in the original author's guide because you don't understand what they were saying fully 2) Piercing together a bunch of info from various authors is not only confusing at times but also wrong. 3) It doesn't contribute much because the info is already out there and what you have wrriten is nothing but a crappier version of what was already written.

Edited by Iwipe
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Frankly its not hard to write a vengeance priority list and opener for 2.6 and 2.5.

 

In 2.6 the damn thing isn't changing much, but the opener is refined into:

 

Saber Throw, Force Charge, Shatter, Ravage, Impale, Force Scream, Ravage, Vicious Throw, refiller until Shatter and Impale are back off cooldown. the moment Shatter and impale are off cooldown, you continue with:

 

Shatter/Impale, whichever comes off cooldown first (Shatter higher priority if they come at the same time), then the other proc ability (if shatter came first then use impale), then Ravage. Depending on where you used Force Scream, you may have 2 stacks or you may have wasted 1 stack with vicious throw. This is irrelevant in 2.6. Force Scream will be taking the place of a mid priority filler as having MAXIMUM uptime on Shatter and Impale is far more important as getting up rampage stacks to ravage will see the maximum increase in DPS. Optimally the easiest way to fit in Force Scream in this new rotation is probably right after rampage procs but not before you use ravage, as you have that 9 second window to use ravage and the rage refund will give the room to, unless you are royally *********** things up of course.

 

You also fail to mention a frontloaded damage opening. A burn phase that is shorter than 12 seconds means that you will do less dps if you use the traditional opener (in 2.5 at any rate). The 12 second burn phase rotation mandates that the user frontload both dots before ravage for maximum short term dps. You are also missing that in your guide.

 

At any rate why bother to write a 2.5 guide at ANY rate? The damn tree is changing in 2.6.

 

And frankly someone who does not main the spec as a dps and doesn't use it as their primary raiding spec who spends ages debating with his peers in the class on rotation and reading other guides to glean knowledge isn't qualified to write a guide for the class. PERIOD.

 

And Theorycrafting MANDATES the community piggyback on each other's work. THATS WHAT MAKES IT AWESOME.

 

Paowee's guide isn't just him jacking vigilance material from us. The Guardians collaborated, parsed things, and hashed things out so that we could create a guide that reflected all of our experience into a neat page.

 

Feedback is integral to theorycrafting. Consolidation of knowledge. Without it you become Noxxic, too fed up on ones own superiority to acknowledge the flaws. I'd encourage your two "Authors" to actually post these *********** guides on the forums themselves and have the TOP PLAYERS of the class give feedback.

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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I've been pretty displeased with these guides as well. It's a good idea and a huge undertaking, one that is very comprehensive. Such a task should be impossible for one person alone. 24 specs, not including hybrids? There's no way one person can keep up with them all AND be proficient in them. At this rate, with the amount of traffic your site gets, Dulfy, I fear these guides will become as bad as we all know noxxic is. I wouldn't want such a large amount of misinformation being put out on an otherwise well-respected website. It just breeds bad players. At least point to other guides here on the forums (something Paowee does, despite other flaws...) so people can do some research for themselves as well and make informed decisions based on guides written by people that play and main these specs! Edited by drummerinthesun
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And frankly someone who does not main the spec as a dps and doesn't use it as their primary raiding spec who spends ages debating with his peers in the class on rotation and reading other guides to glean knowledge isn't qualified to write a guide for the class. PERIOD.

 

So you say KBN shouldn't make a Combat and Dirty Fighting guid then? I don't understand your outrage, in what way this guide hurt you so much?

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Caius, going to whip out your parse to crush the impale shatter scream debate

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/547955/3/0/Damage+Dealt

 

He spent nearly an hour doing this parse and while the uptime on shatter and impale isn't quite 100 percent lining up, its close enough.

 

Ability...........Avg dmg/use..............Avg dps/use

Shatter.................7554...................... .574

Impale..................5303...................... 418

FS.........................5136................... ....411

 

Granted he did run some crit, but considering he had MORE force scream uses than impale and impale still came ahead, impale is obviously ahead.

 

Shatter and impale also had a very close usage scenario meaning impale didn't have seamless uptime. That being said, 3 seconds probably wouldn't make a 150+ dps difference.

 

HE also had some crit, which doesn't affect force scream but affects shatter and impale drastically.

 

This is the type of testing we expect from people writing guides, the willingness to parse things for hours on end to find the little tips and tricks, to find the little loopholes and cool new things you can do to make the spec work for you. Slapping together a guide with a cursory knowledge of the spec is not equivalent.

 

Adjust your guide priority list accordingly.

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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I see alot of insults thrown out and not alot of feedback. Seems like someone is really butthurt. Anyways Carl will be responding to your points later and if there are anything really wrong and not a matter of opinion we will change it later.

 

Also, the opinion about our shadow tanking, ya we said shadows make the best offtank because of their skill sets but they can equally be a maintank. Seems you might have missed that part.

 

Lastly, I prefer guides written by players who have played the class and know what they are talking about, not those made by players who take bits and pieces from other guides and piece them together. Why? Because I used to do that back in Rift years ago so I know exactly the problems of it: 1) You risk misinterpreting whatever was said in the original author's guide because you don't understand what they were saying fully 2) Piercing together a bunch of info from various authors is not only confusing at times but also wrong. 3) It doesn't contribute much because the info is already out there and what you have wrriten is nothing but a crappier version of what was already written.

 

Okay. since you seem convinced that Rydarus doesn't know what he is talking about and that you want actual constructive critism.. how about this?

 

1. Impale/Overhead slash is NOT more important than shatter. When you look at cooldowns and cost, yes it IS better but in actual damage you seem to be only looking at the upfront part. The bleed on Impale/Overhead is much, much, much, MUCH weaker than shatter/plasma brand's. For one extra rage you do at least 2k extra damage... ideally you want both shatter/impale on cooldown but if you only have the rage for one. its shatter by a longshot.

 

2. Why do you list force scream/blade storm as more important than ravage/masterstrike? Force scream is only semi important now because of how cruddy zen strike is, after 2.6 bladestorm is pretty much turning into a glorified filler. I don't think I need to show you numbers here for the damage difference.

 

3. The vigilance tree is NOT focus spec. It has RNG and is NOT set in stone. With how the cooldowns and RNG work the most you can describe is the opener and even THEN the opener can change once you get to the zen strike RNG, after 2.6 the first 2 rotations will be reliable, after that due to how our abilities cooldown it is going to vary and lets not include when dispatch is going to be used.

 

Out of the whole guide the only thing that was actually correct was the force sweep info (its a filler that builds 1 focus.)

 

Your guide needs a LOT of work and Rydarus knows what he is talking about.

Edited by Hanonar
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At any rate why bother to write a 2.5 guide at ANY rate? The damn tree is changing in 2.6.

 

And frankly someone who does not main the spec as a dps and doesn't use it as their primary raiding spec who spends ages debating with his peers in the class on rotation and reading other guides to glean knowledge isn't qualified to write a guide for the class. PERIOD.

 

The guide was written back in Dec 2013 but we delayed publishing it due to the holidays and formatting them takes time. There were also some other stuff we wanted to add in before publishing it, hence the delay. The 2.6 change was just announced days ago and very few people has tested it on a raid setting so we won't make the updated changes unless we know for certain it is good.

 

As for someone writing a guide who isn't a using it as their raid main. I think that argument is kinda shortsighted. What is the meaning of Main toon anyways when people play multiple toons and raid in multiple raid groups? Why do you think the authors never consulted other people's guides or even good raiders that can parse? Even the person you mentioned in the previous post here doesn't main all the toons and still write guides. Should he be disallowed to write guides by the same argument?

 

That being said, we never said our guide is perfect or the best. It still need improvement to make it better. We like constructive feedbacks to make it better but starting off your feedback with "This guide is mediocre at best" and end it with "L2writedecentguide" make it very hard to take anything you say seriously.

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I've been pretty displeased with these guides as well. It's a good idea and a huge undertaking, one that is very comprehensive. Such a task should be impossible for one person alone. 24 specs, not including hybrids? There's no way one person can keep up with them all AND be proficient in them. At this rate, with the amount of traffic your site gets, Dulfy, I fear these guides will become as bad as we all know noxxic is. I wouldn't want such a large amount of misinformation being put out on an otherwise well-respected website. It just breeds bad players. At least point to other guides here on the forums (something Paowee does, despite other flaws...) so people can do some research for themselves as well and make informed decisions based on guides written by people that play and main these specs!

 

There seems to be accusations here that are incorrect

 

1) These guides are not written by one player, it is written by two players with consulting to other players in the guild. We like to think that given our guild does pretty well in the raiding scene, these players know what they are talking about and not just spewing out BS and numbers.

 

2) Anything we posted gets lots of feedbacks from players in all ranges from the casuals to the top raiders from the top guilds. Anything that is wrong we correct and anything that is too opinionated we change. If there are any misinformation, point them out and it will be changed if you are indeed correct about it. Nothing is set in stone.

 

3) We do have plans to point to other guides written by other players on the forums. This will come a bit later when we have published everything.

Edited by Iwipe
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This guide is mediocre at best.

 

DELAYING SHATTER TO PROC RAMPAGE IS NOT AN OPTION. Impale IS NOT the strongest dot in the tree by a long shot.

 

Your priority is ALL wrong.

 

Shatter does about 10 dps higher than impale. BOTH need to be on cooldown anyway so its irrelevant.

 

Please dulfy, take a damn look at Paowee's site for guides. Concise, better information from theorycrafters all over the forums and not just two people formulating opinions with inklings of fact supported by one guild.

 

And the personal bias in your articles is insane. Shadow tanking an offtank? Really? 2.5 SLIGHTLY changing spikiness? Really? Yeah... get with the times.

 

And intercede reduces threat by a LARGE amount. Combat log to prove it: http://www.torparse.com/a/547069/12/0/Overview

 

If you intend to make this guide noob friendly, cut down on the scenarios. Give a priority list. K-I-S-S- Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

There are far better vigilance and vengeance guides out there. There is Mattmonkey's (soon to be outdated with 2.6) mine, Vadess', and Paowee's amalgam of all of ours.

 

L2writedecentguide

 

where exactly it says " impale is the hardest hitting dot?" please read the guide well before saying stupid things: "is your most important ability and dot to maintain. It has the lowest CD of all your dots, with a low cost and high damage output."

 

Explain how the priority is ALL wrong, instead of saying its wrong, please elaborate, if you prioritize and ability by its dmg, you are wrong, impale has higher priority than shatter just by the fact that it has shorter CD.... and with 2.6 coming out impale will be much more important since you need to cycle 6/12 second CDs for two stacks. (not to mention, your priority list is exactly the same as ours, and you do have impale above shatter too, just FYI before you make yourself look like an idiot)

 

delaying the ability 1 GCD for a rampage proc is a dps increase, regardless of what you say, the only problem is Keeping the count and having the luck, if you dont proc it its a dps lost, thats why it say its up to luck, nothing too smart to think about it.

 

Honestly just like board and you your brigade of Haters from the other guide are impressive and annoying, if you going to comment something say something useful, otherwise keep it to yourselves, we read all the paowee guide the other day when he was talking stupid things on the forums, the only guides that are worth anything are: sniper, Operative, Merc... Operative having quite a few mistakes but i didnt bother, Sniper is good, just so much info and pictures and stuff is overwhelming to read, and merc all around is good, but needed some quick fixes / updates... the rest are mediocre to worst, your jug guide says nothing, i was expecting something like Operatives when reading it, and say absolutely nothing, a terrible lackluster of information, i just wont bother posting in that **** because its your guide and i couldnt care less... same with assassins, it is perfect, but says the same i do basically.

 

The only difference between those guides and ours, is that people actually read ours, and we get comments / feedback, over 20-50+ comments per guide (some good, some terrible) like the debate on the ssin opener (exactly the same as fuyri) but boarder doesnt have this in his website because no one reads that, and when people ask in there he just send them to the forums for someone else to answer them, so please dont compare a good website with a compilation of Copy / paste guides that people barely see.

 

dont start with the assassin thing again, go ahead and read the guide, then read the discussion, otherwise dont bother, i wont explain here to you how the game "works" and what is the meaning of "offtank" in this game because you are an idiot just trying to hate, unfortunately its not our fault that a small part of the population dont understand how the game works and tanking works and cant comprehend what is written there :).

 

what you say of intercede is something... everyone knows? and, doesnt really matter? a dps jug wouldnt use intercede to a tank ever, it is purely for dps there in the guide, so why would they care if its small, medium, large, insane amount of threat reduced?, that is explained in the jug tank version and how to properly use in combination with another tank (in the video) so again, dont say things without reading the guides.

 

The guide is for everyone, not only for noobs, we are looking to improve every guide to include more detail on different situations that people have asked us, if you dont like them, dont read them.

 

just a "fun" note here, you say our "priority list is all wrong" however our priority list is exactly the same in my guide as yours lol, so thats how pointless and stupid your comment sounds, you have FS above shatter which is pointless since both are used with 2 stack of savagery... the only difference is if someone reads my guide, they know they have to use FS + IP if both are together otherwise on your next round you will only have 1 stack of Savagery and delay force scream, in yours they wuold do IP + FS actually wasting 1 stack of Savagery, because your guide explains nothing it just says " keep all the 3 dots, use ravage on CD, if shatter and impale are together, use impale first" Hardcore.

 

The only difference between priority list is: i have force push above Rage fillers, and explained, which is right, if i was using your guide, if i have 1 GCD open and 9 Rage, i would use SA then ST then FP, wasting both dps and Rage... also ST > SA if you have 7+ Rage, thats something you might want to explain in that guide, or explain anything at least.

 

your burn phase doesnt explain at all the use of 2x Vicious Throw in the rotation, it just seems like you were just using the same procs again.

 

want another quick look at the terribly written guide in board website?:

 

Sundering Assault gives 7 Rage

Saber Throw gives 4 Rage

Assault gives 2 Rage

Smash gives 1 Rage but does the most damage of the four.

Shatter costs 5 Rage,

Impale and Force Scream costs 4 Rage each (you also get Rage refunded via

Shien Form) so keep that in mind

 

Come on... reading Tooltips 101 guys, Shien form only regen 1 rage on abilities that COST force (this includes smash), ST doesnt generate 4.... also in this guide it means that shatter doesnt regen 1 rage either, want a good list:

 

 

Shatter (SH) – 5 cost – 4 spent

Impale (IP) – 4 cost – 3 spent

Force Scream (FS) – 4 cost – 3 spent

Vicious Slash (VS) – 3 cost – 2 spent

Vicious Throw (VT)- 3 cost – 2 spent

Ravage (RV)- 0 cost – 0 gained

Force Push (FP) – 0 cost – 0 gained

Smash – 0 cost – 1 gained

Vicious Throw (VT proc) – 0 cost – 1 gained

Assault – 0 cost – 2 gained

Saber Throw (ST)- 0 cost – 3 gained

Sundering Assault (SA)- 0 cost – 7 gained

 

yeah, thats in my guide.

 

you also put force push in the uses of abilities however you dont explain any situation or how can it be used, it is just there for decorating purposes?

 

so anyways your hating / trolling comment is just completely stupid, considering the Jug guide in that website is by far the worst, merc guide is good, Op is relatively good, Sniper is really good, Tanks are as good as a tank guide for rotation can be... but jug, is just terrible compared to the rest unfortunately :(.

 

anyways just like i said board, instead of acting like a 10 year old child just hating on something making you look like an idiot, either post something to help "fix" or improve the guides, or dont post anything, no one here cares about your guide and will bother going to post **** about it, no one cares which guide is better than other, people just want to help the community, so instead of acting like a child saying "this **** is crap read my guide because i am the bestzzz", post what you think has to be fixed (instead of making me read all this nonesense hating). be like the good players, be like Smugler, or pizza, even KBN which gave us the alternative of using his tank numbers not saying he was right we are wrong, just saying the math is solid to be used as reference, thats the difference between someone trying to help the community, and an idiot like you and boarder that feel threatened by our guide for whatever reason like if this was a competition and i STILL dont understand why lol

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LOL so you mean the authors of your guides have played 7 DPS specs all 3 healer specs and all 3 tank specs in a raiding scenario and have experienced enough in all 13 specs to be able to write a guide? Really?

 

I would not feel confident writing a guide on my shadow simply because although I raid with him, I have NOT invested anywhere near the 104 days 21 hours and 30 minutes i have on my guardian DPS. As such, me writing a guide would have been dissected, eviscerated, destroyed, stomped, and utterly disintegrated by the likes of KBN, Dipstik, Thok, and all the other major theorycrafters.

 

If i were KBN and saw this noobie Rydarus guy writing about shadow tanking, I'd put

 

LEARN TO WRITE DECENT GUIDE.

 

The same applies to if I had a combat sent, scoundrel, healing sorc, and blah blah blah. I have not invested anywhere near enough time on those toons to even make a halfdecent guide, let alone one thats ACTUALLY useful in endgame PVE.

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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The fact that you have 11 possible situations you could find in the guide is just unnecessary. This is probably one of the WORST specs you could even try to show situations for. Who has time or the memory to remember 11 possible situations? What does that help with? Just post the priority and let the people experiment! You can't just post "if X happens, the next 5 GCDs should be Y rotation," yet you do this in ALL of your guides, even if they are RNG specs! This is a completely useless endeavor. With regards to "Where does it say impale has a higher priority?" I point you to section 1.5 of your guide. What is the first ability you have listed? Impale. This suggests it has the highest priority. Under section 1.4, the first entry is "Impale is your most important ability and dot to maintain." Enough evidence? Instead of asking Rydarus for explanations of what is wrong, COMPARE YOUR GUIDE TO HIS! He shouldn't need to write his guide twice, once for the community, and once as a response to your poorly written guide.

 

With regards to Paowee and swtorboarg.org, he does not write the guides. He contacts top raiders and parsers, and compiles their information into the formatting he uses on his site.

Edited by drummerinthesun
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The fact that you have 11 possible situations you could find in the guide is just unnecessary. This is probably one of the WORST specs you could even try to show situations for. Who has time or the memory to remember 11 possible situations? What does that help with? Just post the priority and let the people experiment! You can't just post "if X happens, the next 5 GCDs should be Y rotation," yet you do this in ALL of your guides, even if they are RNG specs! This is a completely useless endeavor. With regards to "Where does it say impale has a higher priority?" I point you to section 1.5 of your guide. What is the first ability you have listed? Impale. This suggests it has the highest priority. Under section 1.4, the first entry is "Impale is your most important ability and dot to maintain." Enough evidence? Instead of asking Rydarus for explanations of what is wrong, COMPARE YOUR GUIDE TO HIS! He shouldn't need to write his guide twice, once for the community, and once as a response to your poorly written guide.

 

With regards to Paowee and swtorboarg.org, he does not write the guides. He contacts top raiders and parsers, and compiles their information into the formatting he uses on his site.

 

You do know that in the Paowee guide that Rydarus recommended & linked in his guide , the first ability in the priority is Impale/Overhead Slash right?

Edited by Iwipe
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Okay. since you seem convinced that Rydarus doesn't know what he is talking about and that you want actual constructive critism.. how about this?

 

1. Impale/Overhead slash is NOT more important than shatter. When you look at cooldowns and cost, yes it IS better but in actual damage you seem to be only looking at the upfront part. The bleed on Impale/Overhead is much, much, much, MUCH weaker than shatter/plasma brand's. For one extra rage you do at least 2k extra damage... ideally you want both shatter/impale on cooldown but if you only have the rage for one. its shatter by a longshot.

 

2. Why do you list force scream/blade storm as more important than ravage/masterstrike? Force scream is only semi important now because of how cruddy zen strike is, after 2.6 bladestorm is pretty much turning into a glorified filler. I don't think I need to show you numbers here for the damage difference.

 

3. The vigilance tree is NOT focus spec. It has RNG and is NOT set in stone. With how the cooldowns and RNG work the most you can describe is the opener and even THEN the opener can change once you get to the zen strike RNG, after 2.6 the first 2 rotations will be reliable, after that due to how our abilities cooldown it is going to vary and lets not include when dispatch is going to be used.

 

Out of the whole guide the only thing that was actually correct was the force sweep info (its a filler that builds 1 focus.)

 

Your guide needs a LOT of work and Rydarus knows what he is talking about.

 

Impale is more important than Shatter, for two reasons, Lower cost and faster CD, just like the 3 taunt rotation, you use single / aoe / single, to maximize its use, you want to use and have a rotation with impale / shatter / impale in order to maximize its use and keep RNG at max, now with 2.6 coming it is even more important to use Impale before Shatter.

 

there shouldnt be a case where you "dont" have enough rage for both, considering the whole rotation cycle between this two abilities, if you get into an impale / shatter window without enough rage, you just did your rotation wrong, i am not going to explain the rotation to someone that is doing it wrong :).

 

Force scream is more important than Ravage, by Far, i mean honestly, you hiding behind rydarus nonsense and you dont even read to his guide? you need to keep all 3 dots up as much as possible, it has 100% crit chance, and relies on Savagery stacks, therefor you cant delay iP + SH to use FS later just because you used Ravage.. honestly do you know how RNG class works? what u say is like saying Rail shot is more important than I.missile or TD on pyrotech rotation... IT IS NOT.. the PROC is more important, RAMPAGE and PPA is more important than Ravage and Rail shot... Rampage has 9 second internal CD, you should NEVER prioritize the use of ravage instead of IP SH or FS because you have a 9 second window to use it without hurting/ delaying its use and DPS.

 

under your perspective of vengaence, then no one should write a guide, because it is bound to RNG every single time you start a rotation, so that argument is just as wrong as the rest.

 

want a quick explanation on why impale > shatter if you have 5 Rage?, okey lets go... SA / enrage / ST all on CD, you have 3 GCD CD remaining on SA.... you have 5 rage, what you do?:

what you propose:

 

shatter + Assault (3) + assault (5) + FS (2 stacks) (2) + SA (9)+ IP (6) + filler + filler + filler + FS available, dont have 2 stacks of Sav if you didnt proc VT, cant use it. IP and SH on CD = Filler + SH

 

what the rotation should be:

 

IP (2) + Assault (4) + FS (2 stacks) (0) + SA (7) + SH (3) + Filler (smash) + IP (1) + filler (ST) + FS (2 stacks) (0) + keep going

 

so, does that explain the difference between low cost / low CD priority of IP over SH, just because something does more dmg doesnt mean it has higher priority always, compare both rotations, yours, has a quick shatter, followed by FS and impale, and way too many fillers, delaying both FS and 1 use of IP.

other: has IP SH FS, then it has fillers for a second IP, then FS right on CD without delay, and keep going you will eventually get SH on CD as well... please try which one is more dps thanks :).

 

you want more reference? read rydarus guide :

 

http://swtorboard.org/2014/01/09/vengeance-juggernaut-mattmonkey/

 

Quote

"Shatter – you want as little down time on the Shatter DoT as you can. When you find yourself with Impale and Shatter coming up at the same time. Use Impale first."

 

/sigh

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LOL so you mean the authors of your guides have played 7 DPS specs all 3 healer specs and all 3 tank specs in a raiding scenario and have experienced enough in all 13 specs to be able to write a guide? Really?

 

I would not feel confident writing a guide on my shadow simply because although I raid with him, I have NOT invested anywhere near the 104 days 21 hours and 30 minutes i have on my guardian DPS. As such, me writing a guide would have been dissected, eviscerated, destroyed, stomped, and utterly disintegrated by the likes of KBN, Dipstik, Thok, and all the other major theorycrafters.

 

If i were KBN and saw this noobie Rydarus guy writing about shadow tanking, I'd put

 

LEARN TO WRITE DECENT GUIDE.

 

The same applies to if I had a combat sent, scoundrel, healing sorc, and blah blah blah. I have not invested anywhere near enough time on those toons to even make a halfdecent guide, let alone one thats ACTUALLY useful in endgame PVE.

 

the fact that you have not spent the same time doesnt mean other people havent, however the "author" is different from the sources, not everything here is from us two only, it comes from multiple players, that i trust more than you and i know are more capable from my guild, same thing with KBN "using" his classes.

 

the problem with you guys and the same topic with KBN, ist that you believe just because you are the only 3 idiots that bother parsing Jug on a dummy and raid it as your "main" you guys are the best, and you are not, most people dont bother parsing in dummy in fact most dont even bother uploading numbers in torparse as they dont care about competition, they just have fun competing in raids with guild members (like most of my guildies case)...

 

let me explain again the same thing i explained about "mains", it is relative, just because you dont "use that class for progress" that mean its not your main? my main is my operative, but i used my sniper for NiM SaV progress, which one is my main?, i got a Dragonslayer title with my PT in a world 5th with my group B, which one is my main?, in fact my PT got his title before OP, does that make my mains: sniper > PT > OP? thats stupid, just because people dont have good enough guilds to do alt runs or are not good enough to play multiple classes like you, doesnt mean the rest is like that, we had 6 runs weekly of NiM Sav, 3 of them easy title runs, by the time only 5 guilds could clear it, with only around 24-25 mains, the rest were pure alts... so by the time our vengeance / rage jug was clearing it, probably most of the people commenting here wasnt even past trasher, by the time i ran all 8 classes through NiM SaV full clears (multiple Weeks) most people again, couldnt even kill trasher.... with 6 weekly kills and i was part of 4, you can imagine how much " practice" i had and we had to test most of this stuff.

 

bottom line, idc if you like it or not, we want feedback, if you have something useful to say, say it otherwise keep it to yourself, if you have tips / improvements we will gladly fix them, however you have yet to post anything useful, if you want to run multiple alts and be good with them all, app to my guild and you will do 6-10 weekly runs with multiple alts (if you get in) and try to beat our jug dps :D... just dont say just because you dont do it, others cant

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The fact that you have 11 possible situations you could find in the guide is just unnecessary. This is probably one of the WORST specs you could even try to show situations for. Who has time or the memory to remember 11 possible situations? What does that help with? Just post the priority and let the people experiment! You can't just post "if X happens, the next 5 GCDs should be Y rotation," yet you do this in ALL of your guides, even if they are RNG specs! This is a completely useless endeavor. With regards to "Where does it say impale has a higher priority?" I point you to section 1.5 of your guide. What is the first ability you have listed? Impale. This suggests it has the highest priority. Under section 1.4, the first entry is "Impale is your most important ability and dot to maintain." Enough evidence? Instead of asking Rydarus for explanations of what is wrong, COMPARE YOUR GUIDE TO HIS! He shouldn't need to write his guide twice, once for the community, and once as a response to your poorly written guide.

 

With regards to Paowee and swtorboarg.org, he does not write the guides. He contacts top raiders and parsers, and compiles their information into the formatting he uses on his site.

 

people in the other guides wanted scenarios, we gave them scenarios in jug, you dont like them, fine... others will like them, its your opinion.

 

again just like dulfy said, before saying "stupid" things read rydarus guide http://swtorboard.org/2014/01/09/vengeance-juggernaut-mattmonkey/

 

quote: "Vengeance Juggernaut DPS guide by Rydarus"

 

quote: Priority list:

impale

FS

SH

RV

VT

Smash

....

 

 

Quote: " Shatter – you want as little down time on the Shatter DoT as you can. When you find yourself with Impale and Shatter coming up at the same time. Use Impale first."

 

honestly i dont know what i find more fun / stupid on these comments, the fact that you guys are terribly hating the guide, or the fact that you use "someones" guide to back up information that is EXACTLY THE SAME as mine... /facepalm

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LOL so you mean the authors of your guides have played 7 DPS specs all 3 healer specs and all 3 tank specs in a raiding scenario and have experienced enough in all 13 specs to be able to write a guide? Really?

 

I would not feel confident writing a guide on my shadow simply because although I raid with him, I have NOT invested anywhere near the 104 days 21 hours and 30 minutes i have on my guardian DPS. As such, me writing a guide would have been dissected, eviscerated, destroyed, stomped, and utterly disintegrated by the likes of KBN, Dipstik, Thok, and all the other major theorycrafters.

 

If i were KBN and saw this noobie Rydarus guy writing about shadow tanking, I'd put

 

LEARN TO WRITE DECENT GUIDE.

 

The same applies to if I had a combat sent, scoundrel, healing sorc, and blah blah blah. I have not invested anywhere near enough time on those toons to even make a halfdecent guide, let alone one thats ACTUALLY useful in endgame PVE.

 

theorycrafters? really? theorycrafters are far from being the best players, most theorycrafters cant clear content, and most of them theorycraft stuff from numbers and not from 100 hours of playing, hours of playing is relative, can you measure hours in dummy / raiding? you cant, so how can you know how much time was spent in a raid or practicing and not standing on fleet / selling crap? come on your arguments are so stupid its even sad.

 

IF something is wrong, then people can comment and fix it, thats the point of a guide, however if something is right, i dont care who writes it, like KBN, hes great theorycrafter and math but i dont consider him a great player (never played with him) but hes just one of the rest to me, however his guides are usually right in most stuff, so i dont care if he played 5 hours - 10 hours 100 hours with which char, as long as the information is correct, i dont care, and if its not, i would just comment it to fix it not saying "its wrong".

 

the point of the community is helping each other, not trash talking each other, if you feel so confident of your guide, fine people will read it, whoever disagree will read ours, whoever think it needs work will write their own or try to help. however until you decide to give some real feedback or suggestion that doesnt include something like " shatter has higher priority than impale when your own guide says the other thing (same as mine)" we will for sure test it and fix it if needed, otherwise you are just wasting everybody time.

 

PS: read your own guide before "saying" something is wrong, when it is the same in your own stuff, thanks.

 

http://swtorboard.org/2014/01/09/vengeance-juggernaut-mattmonkey/

Edited by Carlenux
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LOL ROFL QQ LAWL #L2P

 

 

Seriously, a lot of people in this thread are acting immature and idiotic. A guide was posted. You don't like it? Fine, write your own and let people look at yours. At the end of the day, we all add our own nuisances to our Rotations and our play style and just because someone doesn't meet yours does not make them a bad player. I read the guide and I think it's fine to help people learn about the spec and what it's all about. We were all at a time where Noxxic was our only option or learn it from scratch. I learned most of Vengeance and Rage on my own and it's a pain. I didn't have the liberty of a guide that someone had made.

 

If you don't like what she posted or what Carl is done, then leave the thread and let it be. But criticising someone's work is unjustified. Some people may find information in the guide that helps them better themselves and that's the point. It's not there for you to judge, it's there to help people out. Very simple.

Edited by Luckygunslinger
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LOL ROFL QQ LAWL #L2P

 

 

Seriously, a lot of people in this thread are acting immature and idiotic. A guide was posted. You don't like it? Fine, write your own and let people look at yours. At the end of the day, we all add our own nuisances to our Rotations and our play style and just because someone doesn't meet yours does not make them a bad player. I read the guide and I think it's fine to help people learn about the spec and what it's all about. We were all at a time where Noxxic was our only option or learn it from scratch. I learned most of Vengeance and Rage on my own and it's a pain. I didn't have the liberty of a guide that someone had made.

 

If you don't like what she posted or what Carl is done, then leave the thread and let it be. But criticising someone's work is unjustified. Some people may find information in the guide that helps them better themselves and that's the point. It's not there for you to judge, it's there to help people out. Very simple.

 

yeah :) ^ for once a good answer here, perfect post, i like it :) thanks!

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yeah :) ^ for once a good answer here, perfect post, i like it :) thanks!

 

Keep up the good work with the guides. I know a few people as well as myself are happy people are making the commitment. And if there is any little issue with a bit of the guide, I'm more than happy to help tweak. I told Dulfy to hit me up if she needs anything regarding Jugg just in case. :)

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Keep up the good work with the guides. I know a few people as well as myself are happy people are making the commitment. And if there is any little issue with a bit of the guide, I'm more than happy to help tweak. I told Dulfy to hit me up if she needs anything regarding Jugg just in case. :)

 

for sure we will be working on 2.6 changes soon enough, as well, however we will wait for the patch to release for final changes so we dont work on something that might end up being changed :)... if you have any suggestion / mistake to fix, post it here or in the website and we will make sure to take note of it and fix it if its right :).

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