BiS Accuracy - 4 or 5 slots?

[mastirkal]

KTap is the highest parsing sage. And, as I've said before, that kind of argument is invalid. the reason why you can't make this assumption just because it's common practice is because there isn't enough theorycrafting for it. Point of reference, 36/8/2 was common for gunslingers/snipers until someone went out and tried the 36/3/7 variation. Common practice => ideal situation is a logical fallacy.

 

But people adapt to change. I don't think many people fought the 36/3/7 change when they saw it had higher dps. If 4 acc and an augment is higher dps than five acc mods then someone needs to prove it on a consistent basis to change the overall understanding of it, instead of an outlier. It does need more theory crafting, but until then the norm is the only acceptable answer. Someone saying "It's better because it works for me" Is complete crap.

Edited January 18, 2014 by mastirkal

[KTap]

But people adapt to change. I don't think many people fought the 36/3/7 change when they saw it had higher dps. If 4 acc and an augment is higher dps than five acc mods then someone needs to prove it on a consistent basis to change the overall understanding of it, instead of an outlier. It does need more theory crafting, but until then the norm is the only acceptable answer. Someone saying "It's better because it works for me" Is complete crap.

 

The norm is never the only acceptable answer.

 

I believe throughout this whole argument I've said it works better for me (and some other people), not that it's definitely better for everyone.

 

I just want people to be aware that it's an option, and certainly viable, unlike what some people are suggesting.

Edited January 18, 2014 by KTap

[THoK-Zeus]

@KTap:

Some calculations for this tier: With 4 accuracy enhancements you currently have 99,26% accuracy, therefore a 5th accuracy enhancements gives you a 0,74% dps increase (as accuracy doesnt have any effect over 100% afaik).

 

A 6th surge enhancements (from 470 to 564 rating), gives you a 1,85% surge increase. which equals (with 35-40% crit) to a 0,65-0,74% dps increase.

 

Conclusion here: A 6th surge enhancement for a accuracy enhancement is a straight dps loss for any class with less then 40% overall crit damage.

 

As some people still have the idea that they should reduce their dps by trading mainstat for accuracy, another calculation here. 32 accuracy rating (from 376 to 408 rating) provides 0,404% accuracy = dps increase.

 

Some examples: Assuming 72% surge 0,56% crit rating provides a 0,404% dps increase.

0,56% crit is achieved by taking 28 crit rating. Mainstat gives an even bigger dps increase then crit rating (no one uses crit augments for a reason).

 

Overall conclusion for this tier:

For this tier, assuming you have more then 40% crit damage a 6th Surge enhancement in favor of a 5th accuracy enhancement is a dps increase for the dummy, although it makes your dps unrelieable for raids (EP example for snipers...).

 

However, do never take accuracy augments instead of mainstat augments.

That will seriously hurt your dps, as shown before, as the dps loss of a switch of a single mainstat augment for a accuracy augment, is a lot higher then the gain from a 6th surge enhancement in favor of a 5th accuracy enhancement.

 

All in all, it can be better to stay at 99,26% accuracy in favor of more surge. But it's never good to trade mainstat augments for any stat in this game. I will probably try parsing with 4 accuracy and 6 surge enhancements with my hybrid sniper, but for sure without any non-mainstat augment.

 

Take 4 or 5 accuracy enhancements, but never try to get close to 100% accuracy by adding some other stats in.

 

 

 

 

I also did make some calculations for the next tier. I assume that the new enhancement gear will give you 101 rating each.

 

With 4 accuracy enhancements, most dps classes reach 99,62% accuracy. with 5 enhancements you would reach 100,85%. I don't know for sure if accuracy over 100% has any use in pve, but i doubt it, therefore a 5th accuracy enhancement gives us 0,38% more dps

 

If we assume 5 surge pieces, a sixth surge piece (from 505 to 606 surge) would give you 1,8% additional surge. With a typical crit from 35-40% that is a 0,63-0,72% dps increase.

 

Comparision: A single alacrity piece gives you 1,45% alacrity. If you can increase your dps by 0,7% when you attack and regen 1,45% faster alacrity is better then.

Edited January 18, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[namesaretough]

The difference is within the RNG you'll see run to run, so no one is ever going to definitively prove it via parsing. And it's certainly not a large enough difference to be called "unviable".

 

Besides, the whole "if something was better than the norm someone would have found it" argument supposes a sufficient number of people playing and trying new things. Most people on the leaderboards are working off exactly the same rotations, not because there's extensive theorycrafting proving those rotations are ideal, but because they're copying someone who had success with that rotation. I've had enough PMs from people looking for hybrid gunslinger help who have later appeared on the leaderboard running exactly the rotation I helped them with to be reasonably confident of that.

 

I'd be willing to wager the same goes for gearing. Everyone "knows" that full mainstat augments are the best, so very few (even among the top parsing of each spec) try swapping one out.

Edited January 18, 2014 by namesaretough

[KTap]

Lots of math

 

and

 

I will probably try parsing with 4 accuracy and 6 surge enhancements with my hybrid sniper, but for sure without any non-mainstat augment.

 

Why are you so averse to trying 4 pieces with 1 accuracy augment (inb4 math)?

 

I can already tell you 99.26% is not going to be enough.

[THoK-Zeus]

Why are you so averse to trying 4 pieces with 1 accuracy augment (inb4 math)?

 

I can already tell you 99.26% is not going to be enough.

 

Well i did try it with 1 accuracy augment. Results were very bad.

 

Why should 99,26% not going to be enough and why do you think accuracy > mainstat?

 

If you wanna swap accuracy for mainstat it's the same as if you would tell us all that we should use 14 crit augments instead of 14 mainstat augments (although crit augments would be better then accuracy ones at these Levels of DR).

 

Sorry, i don't understand it. On the one hand you want to get rid of accuracy, on the other hand you fanatically try to gimp yourself to get accuracy value close to 100%.

 

With 72 gear levels no one was saying: Oh we have 99,4% accuracy lets get another accuracy Augment instead of a mainstat one.

Edited January 18, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[KTap]

Well i did try it with 1 accuracy augment. Results were very bad.

 

Why should 99,26% not going to be enough and why do you think accuracy > mainstat? If you wanna swap accuracy for mainstat it's the same as if you would tell us all that we should use 14 crit augments instead of 14 mainstat augments (although crit augments would be better then accuracy ones at these Levels of DR).

 

Not once did I ever say accuracy > mainstat... what are you even talking about?

 

There's a big difference going from 99.67 to 99.26, which is why the augment is necessary.

[THoK-Zeus]

Not once did I ever say accuracy > mainstat... what are you even talking about?

 

There's a big difference going from 99.67 to 99.26, which is why the augment is necessary.

 

This big difference equals 28 crit rating.

[KTap]

This big difference equals 28 crit rating.

 

lol what... anyone who takes 28 crit over that big of a miss % is a potato.

 

How about you try as many parses with 4 acc/1 acc augment as you have with 5 acc pieces.

 

Then you can come in here and tell me about it.

[Falver]

@KTap:

Some calculations for this tier: With 4 accuracy enhancements you currently have 99,26% accuracy, therefore a 5th accuracy enhancements gives you a 0,74% dps increase (as accuracy doesnt have any effect over 100% afaik).

 

A 6th surge enhancements (from 470 to 564 rating), gives you a 1,85% surge increase. which equals (with 35-40% crit) to a 0,65-0,74% dps increase.

 

Um, that kind of math only works with one static variable. You can't model accuracy like that.

ie: what you're doing is supposing that the only attack someone did was a white attack 10,000 times and after that many attacks, the DPS is higher when more of them are accurate rather than with more surge, but that's not really how parsing works. You could argue that ON average, it MIGHT yield more DPS. Which could very well be. But this is my point about parsing, it's all about waiting for a lucky parse.

 

If your accuracy is 99.26/99.67 with a 1.7482 critical multiplier and every attack hits, you're going to hit harder (on average) than the one with 100% and 1.729. BUT, the one with 100% accuracy will be more consistent whereas the 99.26/67 will have the highest theoretical maximum. The big question is whether mathematically, expanding the range of the minimum and maximum will yield more DPS or not. This is why we need theorycraft models, not statements about the current gear tier and how we're going to mess with the accuracy combination.

 

Edit: I will give my last thought on it however, if your goal is to parse over and over until you get the highest possible result, you're better off with a 4/6 ratio rather than 5/5. If you're waiting for lucky crits you might as well wait for lucky misses (and at a variation of .74 and 33, frankly the difference is negligible).

Edited January 18, 2014 by Falver

[THoK-Zeus]

lol what... anyone who takes 28 crit over that big of a miss % is a potato.

 

How about you try as many parses with 4 acc/1 acc augment as you have with 5 acc pieces.

 

Then you can come in here and tell me about it.

 

Sorry, but you don't have a clue about stats in this game, then. Since the start of 2.0 it's consens among the theorycrafters and top parses that your main stat is your best stat. I couldn't care less if somebody is not even understanding what i wrote, but instead calls me a potato.

 

If you don't think my math is correct and you don't believe what everyday wrote, well then stay at your level of gameplay.

 

Oh and i just did 2 single parses with my hybrid sniper with 5 acc pieces. I think i did a bit more with 1 acc augment.

 

Um, that kind of math only works with one static variable. You can't model accuracy like that.

ie: what you're doing is supposing that the only attack someone did was a white attack 10,000 times and after that many attacks, the DPS is higher when more of them are accurate rather than with more surge, but that's not really how parsing works. You could argue that ON average, it MIGHT yield more DPS. Which could very well be. But this is my point about parsing, it's all about waiting for a lucky parse.

 

If your accuracy is 99.26/99.67 with a 1.7482 critical multiplier and every attack hits, you're going to hit harder (on average) than the one with 100% and 1.729. BUT, the one with 100% accuracy will be more consistent whereas the 99.26/67 will have the highest theoretical maximum. The big question is whether mathematically, expanding the range of the minimum and maximum will yield more DPS or not. This is why we need theorycraft models, not statements about the current gear tier and how we're going to mess with the accuracy combination.

 

Edit: I will give my last thought on it however, if your goal is to parse over and over until you get the highest possible result, you're better off with a 4/6 ratio rather than 5/5. If you're waiting for lucky crits you might as well wait for lucky misses (and at a variation of .74 and 33, frankly the difference is negligible).

 

My calculations are for the average. Trading a accuracy enhancement for a surge one, might be viable (depending on your crit of course). Well of course one could make calculations for a lucky parse. In this case you just need to adjust the critical rating you want in your calculations.

 

However that is not true for trading mainstat augments for anything else and that was my point actually. Mainstat and accuracy both are not really depending on crit rating or on any lucky parses.

Edited January 18, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[namesaretough]

If you don't think my math is correct and you don't believe what everyday wrote, well then stay at your level of gameplay.

 

Half of what I said was that you can't call it unviable, and the other half was that you can't assume we know what BIS is just because it's what top parsers do. Also ktap is the best sage I've ever played with.

[KTap]

Sorry, but you don't have a clue about stats in this game, then. Since the start of 2.0 it's consens among the theorycrafters and top parses that your main stat is your best stat. I couldn't care less if somebody is not even understanding what i wrote, but instead calls me a potato.

 

If you don't think my math is correct and you don't believe what everyday wrote, well then stay at your level of gameplay.

 

lol... where are you getting this idea that I don't think mainstat is most important?

 

Also, everyday was more agreeing to my points than yours... so maybe you should actually read what he wrote?

[THoK-Zeus]

lol... where are you getting this idea that I don't think mainstat is most important?

 

Also, everyday was more agreeing to my points than yours... so maybe you should actually read what he wrote?

 

You are writing that you are trading mainstat for accuracy all the time since pages here.....

 

I thought everday was serious about thinking that mainstat augments are bis.

 

I will make an easy comparision (as you seem to not understand math):

mainstat > power >= crit

crit (if less then 200) > accuracy

Edited January 18, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[KTap]

You are writing that you are trading mainstat for accuracy all the time since pages here.....

 

I thought everday was serious about thinking that mainstat augments are bis.

 

I will make an easy comparision (as you seem to not understand math):

mainstat > power >= crit

crit (if less then 200) > accuracy

 

I'm only trading accuracy for mainstat because of the surge benefit from going 4 acc pieces, something you forget to mention yet again.

 

I agree that main stat augments are the best... not once did I ever say anything remotely different.

 

Bottom part, cannot understand. Too much math.

[THoK-Zeus]

I'm only trading accuracy for mainstat because of the surge benefit from going 4 acc pieces, something you forget to mention yet again.

 

I agree that main stat augments are the best... not once did I ever say anything remotely different.

 

Bottom part, cannot understand. Too much math.

 

In all honest, why do you believe that the additional surge has anything to do with your accuracy/mainstat?

 

Trading a surge enhancement for a accuracy enhancement has nothing to do with augment gimping. Nothing!

 

Explain me: How does your additional surge rating affect accuracy differently to mainstat (apart from mainstat actually increasing your crit Rating =buffing your surge)?

Edited January 18, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[KTap]

In all honest, why do you believe that the additional surge has anything to do with your accuracy/mainstat?

 

Trading a surge enhancement for a accuracy enhancement has nothing to do with augment gimping. Nothing!

 

Explain me: How does your additional surge rating affect accuracy differently to mainstat (apart that mainstat is actually increasing your crit Rating =buffing your surge)?

 

I don't even know how to read this

 

1 main stat augment gives you ~ 6 bonus damage and .07% crit.

 

4 acc pieces/augment gives you 1.85% surge (no alacrity in gear) or 2.42% surge (1 piece of alacrity).

 

I choose the surge. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it works for me and plenty of other people.

 

I could bring in a few people who have better parses with 4 pieces/augment if it would make you feel better?

Edited January 18, 2014 by KTap

[THoK-Zeus]

I don't even know how to read this

 

1 main stat augment gives you ~ 6 bonus damage and .07% crit.

 

4 acc pieces/augment gives you 1.85% surge (no alacrity in gear) or 2.42% surge (1 piece of alacrity).

 

I choose the surge. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it works for me and plenty of other people.

 

I could bring in a few people who parse better with 4 pieces/augment if it would make you feel better?

 

Why can you not understand that surge enhancements are completely Independent from accuracy augments?

 

Taking the 6 surge enhancements is completely independant from switching augments around.

 

You don't need to take accuracy augments, when you take other enhancements.

 

1 accuracy augment gives you 0,404% more accuracy which equals to 0,56% crit Chance (with 72% surge) which equals to 28 crit Rating.

Saying that 1 accuracy augment is better then 1 mainstat augment, consequently means that you also have to switch additional crit augments in favor of mainstat (cause 32 crit gives you more dps then 32 accuracy at this DR, up to a crit rating of 200) (Just a reminder a mainstat augment increase your dps by ~0,7%)

 

Which means that you called yourself a potato.

 

You already said that mainstat augments are the best, so why do you want to get rid of them?

Edited January 18, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[KTap]

Why can you not understand that surge enhancements are completely Independent from accuracy augments?

 

Taking the 6 surge enhancements is completely independant from switching augments around.

 

You don't need to take accuracy augments, when you take other enhancements.

 

1 accuracy augment gives you 0,404% more accuracy which equals to 0,56% crit Chance (with 72% surge) which equals to 28 crit Rating.

Saying that 1 accuracy augment is better then 1 mainstat augment, consequently means that you also have to switch additional crit augments in favor of mainstat (cause 32 crit gives you more dps then 32 accuracy at this DR, up to a crit rating of 200)

 

Which means that you called yourself a potato.

 

You already said that mainstat augments are the best, so why do you want to get rid of them?

 

I don't want to get rid of them, but 99.27% accuracy is not enough. The benefit of an additional .40% accuracy is greater than the stats lost from mainstat augment, imo.

 

And uhhhh not sure what you're even talking about with crit augments.

Edited January 18, 2014 by KTap

[THoK-Zeus]

I don't want to get rid of them, but 99.27% accuracy is not enough. The benefit of an additional .40% accuracy is greater than the stats lost from mainstat augment, imo.

 

If you say that 0,40% accuracy is greater you also say, that 0,56% crit is greater then a mainstat Augment (that's 28 crit rating). KTap the Potato it is then.

 

Ok let's explain it very slowly: What does accuracy do?

It makes 0,4% of your attacks not missing and dealing 0 damage. So your dps will increase by 0,4% on average.

 

What does 0,56% crit rating do?

0,56% of your attacks get a bonus damage (typically that's around 72%).

So your dps will increase by 0,56% *0,72 =0,40% on average.

 

 

OT:

 

I took crit as an example, because i thought it's easier to understand then power, or bonus damage.

 

Edited January 18, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[Falver]

It makes 0,4% of your attacks not missing and dealing 0 damage. So your dps will increase by 0,4% on average.

 

Like I've said, no no no, that's not how math works.

[KTap]

If you say that 0,40% accuracy is greater you also say, that 0,56% crit is greater then a mainstat Augment (that's 28 crit rating). KTap the Potato it is then.

 

OT:

 

I took crit as an example, because i thought it's easier to understand then power, or bonus damage.

 

If you're going to insult me, please be original instead of using the same thing I said earlier.

 

If you can't even see what I'm talking about, I don't know what to tell you. I already agreed that mainstat augments are best (at least twice), but 1 accuracy augment is needed so you don't miss important abilities.

 

You're really just rambling at this point, so again, how about you try some parses with 4 pieces/1 augment and then come back.

[THoK-Zeus]

If you're going to insult me, please be original instead of using the same thing I said earlier.

 

If you can't even see what I'm talking about, I don't know what to tell you. I already agreed that mainstat augments are best (at least twice), but 1 accuracy augment is needed so you don't miss important abilities.

 

You're really just rambling at this point, so again, how about you try some parses with 4 pieces/1 augment and then come back.

 

So the 99,6% instead of 99,2% will make a difference for missing important abilities compared to 100,4% ?! :rolleyes:

 

If it would make a difference for you i suggest you go 5 acc pieces without the augment. That will net you more dps then taking the augment and 100% safety.

 

I did 2 parses for the leaderboard with my sniper hybrid. I did do more then 10 times more parses with the acc Augment. It's bad.

 

Edit:

@Falver: Yes, you are correct technically my calculation both for accuracy and crit rating is wrong. (Did misread what you mean).

Technically it's 0,996-0,994/0,996 (same for crit Rating). I did have to massively simplify all the calculations in order for KTap to understand them.

 

The comparision tough stays 100% the same and the result is 100% the same nevertheless.

Edited January 19, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[KTap]

So the 99,6% instead of 99,2% will make a difference for missing important abilities compared to 100,4% ?! :rolleyes:

 

If it would make a difference for you i suggest you go 5 acc pieces without the augment. That will net you more dps then taking the augment and 100% safety.

 

@Falver: I am not talking about lucky dummy parses, but about the average...

 

If you've actually parsed with 99.27 and 99.67, you'll know there's a noticeable difference.

 

Obviously I would prefer never to miss, but the rate at which I do miss currently is negligible compared to the surge I get.

 

I did the whole > 100% accuracy thing for a long time, I know all about it.

 

I did have to massively simplify all the calculations in order for KTap to understand them.

 

lol I'm really rustling your jimmies aren't I?

Edited January 19, 2014 by KTap

[THoK-Zeus]

If you've actually parsed with 99.27 and 99.67, you'll know there's a noticeable difference.

 

Obviously I would prefer never to miss, but the rate at which I do miss currently is negligible compared to the surge I get.

 

I did the whole > 100% accuracy thing for a long time, I know all about it.

 

 

 

lol I'm really rustling your jimmies aren't I?

 

The only thing you did was gimping your damage and still missing attacks (as you can see like 5 pages ago 32 mainstat =~ 90 surge).

If you are not able to understand even the most simple mathematical terms, i can just feel sorry for you. You are in no way competent enough to discuss about that topic.

Edited January 19, 2014 by THoK-Zeus