Kaggath Tournament - Sol'yc Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Warren-Stride]

It however is still in the same "league" as the MK-I.

 

Which is why I labeled it as a capital ship.

 

In the end, that type of ship shouldn't even be in the calculations because the Sol'yc Empire will have to build them first, and according to Sel that will take quite some time.

[Warren-Stride]

OK let me rephrase cus I dont think I was understood. Yours likely has a PROPORTIONATELY larger number of Support and Frigate type ships with a smaller number of Capital ships (maybe 5% capital ships not the 11% you gave yourself) as yours was a Navy controlled by a Criminal Orginization that was not built for war, but built for pirating and smuggling.

 

The SE's on the Other hand would proportionately have a larger Warship quotient So maybe 15% capital ships 30% frigates 55% support kind of thing. Thats all I am saying here. the numbers have to take into acount the different proportions for the difference in Navy type and what each navy had access to.

 

Alright I'll bite. I've re-done the calculations with your suggestions.

 

Sol'yc Empire: 90 ships

Droid Supremacy: 200 ships

 

(For the sake of these calculations, I'm counting "ships" as something bigger than a starfighter)

 

Sol'yc Empire (Mandalorian Navy)

Flagship: Kandosii-type Dreadnought

Capital Ships: Kyramud-type Battleships

Frigates: Jehavey'ir-type Assault Ship

Support Ships: Crusader-class Corvettes

 

Droid Supremacy (Black Sun Navy)

Flagship: MC80 Liberty type Star Cruiser

Capital Ships: Venator-class Star Destroyer

Frigates: Interceptor-class frigate

Support Ships: Gozanti Cruiser

 

To properly determine the make-up of each faction's standing force, I'm using these measurements

 

Sol’yc Empire

 

Flagship: 1% of total force

Capital Ships: 14% of total force

Frigates: 30% of total force

Support Ships: 55% of total force

 

The Droid Supremacy

 

Flagship: 1% of total force

Capital Ships: 5% of total force

Frigates: 35% of total force

Support Ships: 59% of total force

 

With those measurements....

 

Sol'yc Empire (Mandalorian Navy)

Flagship: 1

Capital Ships: 13

Frigates: 27

Support Ships: 49

 

Droid Supremacy (Black Sun Navy)

Flagship: 2

Capital Ships: 10

Frigates: 70

Support Ships: 118

 

So let's compare:

 

Flagships

 

Kandosii-type Dreadnought

 

30 turbolasers

12 laser cannons

12 missile launchers

Class 2 Hyperdrive

 

MC80 Liberty type Star Cruiser

 

48 turbolasers

20 ion cannons

Advanced Shields

Class 1 Hyperdrive

 

 

Total Firepower Calculation for Flagships

 

Sol'yc Empire

30 turbolasers

12 laser cannons

12 missile launchers

 

Droid Supremacy

96 turbolasers

40 ion cannons

 

Capital Ships

 

Kyramud-type battleship

 

25 turbolasers

12 ion cannons

10 missile launchers

Class 2 Hyperdrive

 

Venator-class Star Destroyer

 

18 turbolasers

52 laser cannons

4 missile launchers

Class 1 Hyperdrive

 

Total Firepower Calculations for Capital Ships

 

Sol'yc Empire

325 turbolasers

156 ion cannons

130 missile launchers

 

Droid Supremacy

180 turbolasers

520 laser cannons

40 missile launchers

 

Frigates

 

Jehavey'ir-type assault ship

 

5 turbolasers

3 ion cannons

6 missile launchers

Class 2 Hyperdrive

 

Interceptor-class Frigate

 

6 turbolasers

3 missile launchers

 

Total Firepower Frigate Calculations

 

Sol'yc Empire

135 turbolasers

81 ion cannons

162 missile launchers

 

Droid Supremacy

420 turbolasers

210 missile launchers

 

Support Ships

 

Crusader-class corvette

 

12 laser cannons

 

Gonzati Cruiser

 

4 laser cannons

1 missile launcher

 

Total Firepower Calculations for Support Ships

 

Sol'yc Empire

588 laser cannons

 

Droid Supremacy

472 laser cannons

118 missile launchers

 

 

Grand Total Firepower of each Navy

 

Soly'c Empire

490 turbolasers

588 laser cannons

304 missile launchers

237 ion cannons

 

Droid Supremacy

696 turbolasers

992 laser cannons

368 missile launchers

40 ion cannons

 

 

To make the comparison clear, the Droid Supremacy has

 

142% more turbolasers

160% more laser cannons

120% more missile launchers

 

than the Sol'yc Empire

 

 

And we can see that despite having fewer capital ships than the Sol'yc Empire, the Droid Supremacy still packs a bigger punch, meeting and even overcoming the firepower of the Mandalorian Navy.

 

Am I saying that the Black Sun Navy will steamroll the Mandalorian navy? No. What I am saying is that the so called "naval superiority" that has been throw around this whole Kaggath is non-existent.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[tunewalker]

There you go Warren now thats a good indication. I am sure there is more to talk about Navy wise but I truly Think this is a closer indication between the 2 navies.

[Aurbere]

We should also remember that the SE has a very good naval tactician whereas the DS has none.

[tunewalker]

We should also remember that the SE has a very good naval tactician whereas the DS has none.

 

And thats the DS's biggest issue Honestly even out gunned the Naval Tactitian can win 5:1 and if he is anything like a few of the others in his time droids are even easier for him to counter and could likely out manuever and beat Naval opponents that out gun him 20:1.

 

So even if the DS has better numbers and firepower, the tactical capabilties of the SE turn the numberical advantage on its head.

[Selenial]

The notion that they can compete with Star Destroys is also due to in-game mechanics. The source of the claim that they can compete with Star Destroyers is from Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption. So if you discount their weaponry stats provided by that game, you also discount the fact that they can compete with Star Destroyers.

 

No... No no, we can't use Game mechanics as an excuse for a rebuttle madam

 

If you're getting your information from game mechanics, game mechanics that contradict Canon in other areas, those Game Mechanics are nullified, thus your stats on the ship aren't Valid, and the only armament we can mention is "Can compete with ISD"

[Beniboybling]

Yeah Tune is entirely correct. Those measurements are horribly skewed. Its been said from the beginning that the SE has more of the big ships and the DS has a lot of smaller ships. What you little chart fails to take into account on top of this is that Mando ships are armored with beskar and designed to fight smaller ships (ie Thranta-class corvettes and fighter wings.)

 

I actually stopped in to tell ya'll I'll be in the mountains for the weekend so I probably wont be back on till Sunday night or Mondayish. Have fun and if someone wants to sep up for me I'd be indebted to them.

Wifi Hotspots can be set up in the mountains. No excuse.

[Beniboybling]

In regards to this fleet business. I don't mean to rain on everyone's parade but I think your both wrong in this instance. Warren was right in the first place regarding the intial ratios however she didn't consider the fact that Interceptor-class frigates were classed as capital ships, not support ships within the Black Sun navy. And this is self evident, in Empire of War when you invade Black Sun territory you are not confronted by a host of support ships with a Venator being some kind of super rare. Your confronted by a host of 3 to 4 Interceptor-class frigates supported by patrol craft.

 

Because regardless of what your specialty is, whether its piracy or warfare, capital ship ratios must remain the same, else there entire purposes would fall into disarray. Its the size and firepower of these vessels that varies.

 

On another note, I don't think the Droid Supremacy in terms of naval engagement is geared towards straight up confrontations. Looking back at the last Kaggath they gave up a lot of territory but made up for it through sabotage and espionage, as well as harrying fleets and supply routes en route to their destination, mining hyperspace lanes etc. All the while G0-T0 was constructing a grander scheme with the war being a mere distraction.

[tunewalker]

Because i like throwing wrenches into things I just had a thought.

 

Warren your numbers might again be useless sorry . Here is why Rayla.... and myself. We both had 160 and 140 ships repsectively down scaled from our 1600 and 1400 respectively but both of these numbers were of ships that were Capital size. Rayla had 1600 Star Destroyers based on the information and I had 1400 Cruiser Class or greater ships. We both still had Frigates and support ships along with those Capital ships, but the Capital ships were the only ones we were counting for our 160 and 140 ships.

 

 

The same could potentially be happening with Starsquirls SE, which means he would have 90 Capital ships then the bells and whistles with the rest of his fleet meaning 90 was 10% of his fleet the other 60% of it being made up of support ships (540) and the last 30 % being frigates (270). That being said I am also recalling you saying something about how your Ships were being severely undercut in the last round Warren and because i want no doubts how many ships do you truly believe the Black Sun had and then we will bring that down by 10% to the proper number.

 

 

Of course I could be entirly wrong I think I need Star to come in and say something about this.

[Selenial]

We need to talk more about this Mon Calamari business.

 

I see this as a Major weakness in Warren's empire.

 

The Mon Cala were proud, they didn't like being ruled, they didn't like people doing illegal business on their world, they didn't have a fantastic relationship with droids either.

 

Now, these Mon Calamari also build ships that are unique and hard to work with, especially for droids, as me and Aurbere both mentioned.

 

If this world were to be invaded, it's pretty much just a fleet battle, as the ground would easily uprise, Warren doesn't have the droids to capture that planet, especially not droids capable of deep sea operations.

 

And if she loses Mon Cala, she loses Space....

[Aurbere]

We need to talk more about this Mon Calamari business.

 

I see this as a Major weakness in Warren's empire.

 

The Mon Cala were proud, they didn't like being ruled, they didn't like people doing illegal business on their world, they didn't have a fantastic relationship with droids either.

 

Now, these Mon Calamari also build ships that are unique and hard to work with, especially for droids, as me and Aurbere both mentioned.

 

If this world were to be invaded, it's pretty much just a fleet battle, as the ground would easily uprise, Warren doesn't have the droids to capture that planet, especially not droids capable of deep sea operations.

 

And if she loses Mon Cala, she loses Space....

 

I thought Beni said that all of the B1 variants are in Warren's army.

[Beniboybling]

Because i like throwing wrenches into things I just had a thought.

 

Warren your numbers might again be useless sorry . Here is why Rayla.... and myself. We both had 160 and 140 ships repsectively down scaled from our 1600 and 1400 respectively but both of these numbers were of ships that were Capital size. Rayla had 1600 Star Destroyers based on the information and I had 1400 Cruiser Class or greater ships. We both still had Frigates and support ships along with those Capital ships, but the Capital ships were the only ones we were counting for our 160 and 140 ships.

 

 

The same could potentially be happening with Starsquirls SE, which means he would have 90 Capital ships then the bells and whistles with the rest of his fleet meaning 90 was 10% of his fleet the other 60% of it being made up of support ships (540) and the last 30 % being frigates (270). That being said I am also recalling you saying something about how your Ships were being severely undercut in the last round Warren and because i want no doubts how many ships do you truly believe the Black Sun had and then we will bring that down by 10% to the proper number.

 

 

Of course I could be entirly wrong I think I need Star to come in and say something about this.

Erm, hoh?

[tunewalker]

Erm, hoh?

 

Are you trying to tell me you did not understand a word there. If you didnt....... well hell I dont know how to say it in any plainer language then I already did.

 

 

Can some one translate what i said into Beni speak..... Aka Translate Tune speak into Beni Speak.... go.

[Beniboybling]

We need to talk more about this Mon Calamari business.

 

I see this as a Major weakness in Warren's empire.

 

The Mon Cala were proud, they didn't like being ruled, they didn't like people doing illegal business on their world, they didn't have a fantastic relationship with droids either.

 

Now, these Mon Calamari also build ships that are unique and hard to work with, especially for droids, as me and Aurbere both mentioned.

 

If this world were to be invaded, it's pretty much just a fleet battle, as the ground would easily uprise, Warren doesn't have the droids to capture that planet, especially not droids capable of deep sea operations.

 

And if she loses Mon Cala, she loses Space....

Mon Cal don't like droids? OK...

 

Anyways, we should also consider that the Black Sun only need to control the shipyards and buy "control" all they need is a contract. As far as I'm aware the Mon Cal run and business and get paid to build ships...

[Beniboybling]

Are you trying to tell me you did not understand a word there. If you didnt....... well hell I dont know how to say it in any plainer language then I already did.

 

 

Can some one translate what i said into Beni speak..... Aka Translate Tune speak into Beni Speak.... go.

I'm saying that this is all wrong.

[tunewalker]

I'm saying that this is all wrong.

 

No, I can get Rayla in here to confirm Rayla had 1600 Star Destroyers according to Wookie then we brought that down to the manageable 160 star destroyers this did not include Frigates and Frieghters . This was also the same for mine (you will note every time i said 140, or 1400 I said Capital ships immidiately afterwards) so no not all of it is wrong. If you are saying it is irrelevant because thats not what the Mandalorian 900 Ships were (which are now 90 of course) you can say that but not ALL of that information is incorrect.

[Beniboybling]

No, I can get Rayla in here to confirm Rayla had 1600 Star Destroyers according to Wookie then we brought that down to the manageable 160 star destroyers this did not include Frigates and Frieghters . This was also the same for mine (you will note every time i said 140, or 1400 I said Capital ships immidiately afterwards) so no not all of it is wrong. If you are saying it is irrelevant because thats not what the Mandalorian 900 Ships were (which are now 90 of course) you can say that but not ALL of that information is incorrect.

Well I was lead to believe that those figures encompassed the entirety of your fleets, not just SDs. So I never for a moment intended you to be limited to a single capital ship nor is that my intention here.

[Selenial]

Mon Cal don't like droids? OK...

 

Anyways, we should also consider that the Black Sun only need to control the shipyards and buy "control" all they need is a contract. As far as I'm aware the Mon Cal run and business and get paid to build ships...

 

Well... No.

 

They don't build ships for people they don't like.

 

Hell, when the Calamari say no to the Empire on moral grounds, you know they mean business.

[Selenial]

I thought Beni said that all of the B1 variants are in Warren's army.

 

Well aqua droids were B2.. Weren't they?

[Aurbere]

Well aqua droids were B2.. Weren't they?

 

There were B1 Aqua Droids in the original Battle of Mon Calamari.

[Selenial]

There were B1 Aqua Droids in the original Battle of Mon Calamari.

 

Interesting... I've only seen the B2 variants.

 

However, B1 aqua droids were not in the army as of Naboo if I remember correctly

And we don't know who manufactured them.

 

Edit: Do you mean the TV show battle? Because those were B2s... I think

Edited January 24, 2014 by Selenial

[Wolfninjajedi]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aqua_droid

 

Those are B1s/B2s? They look nothing alike.

[Selenial]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aqua_droid

 

Those are B1s/B2s? They look nothing alike.

 

Well they're basically the cousins of the B2, same voice, same higher programming, similar posture, able to switch out arms for Grenades/Rockets...

[tunewalker]

Well I was lead to believe that those figures encompassed the entirety of your fleets, not just SDs. So I never for a moment intended you to be limited to a single capital ship nor is that my intention here.

 

Nor was that any of our intent when we gave you the numbers.....If you understanding my meaning. The capital ships were the easiest to calculate and get a solid number on so thats what we gave you. Its implied after that we have the bells and whistles along with it including frigates and Support ships which thanks to Warren we now have a better idea of the numbers of those in comparison to capital ships.

 

The only question now is when star said 900 did he mean 900 Capital or just pure 900. AkA did he do like me and Rayla did or was he all encompassing.

[Warren-Stride]

We need to talk more about this Mon Calamari business.

 

I see this as a Major weakness in Warren's empire.

 

The Mon Cala were proud, they didn't like being ruled, they didn't like people doing illegal business on their world, they didn't have a fantastic relationship with droids either.

 

Now, these Mon Calamari also build ships that are unique and hard to work with, especially for droids, as me and Aurbere both mentioned.

 

If this world were to be invaded, it's pretty much just a fleet battle, as the ground would easily uprise, Warren doesn't have the droids to capture that planet, especially not droids capable of deep sea operations.

 

And if she loses Mon Cala, she loses Space....

 

I think you're forgetting the fact that G0-T0's original programming was infrastructure planning for entire worlds. Essentially, he made sure that worlds ran smoothly and worked towards the betterment of the government they served.

 

With that in mind, what's stopping G0-T0 from letting the Mon Calamari do what they want? Their civilization is meaningless to him, all he needs are their shipyards. If he gives them support and protection, along with extreme wealth, for their services, why not give him ships? Droid Supremacy troops could never set foot on the surface, agreeing to stay in the shipyards.

 

Mon Calamari don't like being ruled? Try being ruled by Mandalorians. You know, the warrior people that bombard entire worlds. Somehow I don't think Mandalorian culture or tactics would sit well with the Mon Calamari.

 

Also, nothing G0-T0 is doing is illegal. Obviously it's all legal under the law of the Droid Supremacy.

 

And on this whole thing about Mon Calamari ships not being made for droids? The Black Sun Navy acquired these ships around 123 ABY. And they were obviously piloted by Black Sun members. Droids are just as good at piloting capital ships as biological beings are. That shouldn't be a problem.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Warren-Stride