Kaggath Tournament - Sol'yc Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[tunewalker]

Agreed.

 

HK-01 hacked Juggernaut War Droids over Coruscant, the only specific type of droid we know he corrupted, though it's obvious he caused many other types of droids to rebel as well. The Juggernaut War Droids are a class of battle droid.

 

With that in mind, both Basilisk war droids and BL-series Battle Legionnaire droids are of the battle-droid class. So it stands to reason that HK-01 could corrupt them as well. Although still not sure about the Basilisks because they're extremely advanced.

 

The HK-50s may be "independent," but so was R2-D2. He wasn't hooked up to a mainframe. However, we know that HK-01 was able to hack protocol droids, who are also just as independent as HK-50s. Not only that, but HK-50s are designed to kill biological beings. Convincing them via programming to execute their objective unhindered by orders should be easy.

 

On the note of HK-50s hacking other droids, the only example we have of this is the Peragus Mining Facility. Unfortunately, this kind of hacking could only be accomplished via direct uplink with the droid or the module controling it, as evidenced by the fact that T3-M4 did not spontaneously turn evil due to any signal or interaction with the other droids. So although HKs could hack other droids, they would need a much more direct uplink. And by the time they did that, HK-01 would have undoubtedly corrupted their own programming, de-motivating their want to aid biological beings.

 

To add onto that, HK-50s had a sense of free will. They believed killing was a mass slaughter and had a kill "who we want, when we want" attitude. Considering that they're made to kill biological beings, the HK-50s may even support G0-T0 voluntarily. (Stretching it, I know)

 

I don't know if the Basilisk droids fall under the same category as the other ones. they were more like pets then full on droids. Like War beasts and the droids HK hacked were pretty ancient I am not sure they were not like the B1's in the need for a command center, if that is the case then it would be simple to send wireless virus to a machine that is already controlled wirelessly. Of course again this is all speculative there simply isn't enough information on the droids of that time at all.

[LadyKulvax]

Warren, I am surprised you didn't go for General Grievous, I know he was a cyborg but he was essentially a droid rather than a Kaleesh.

 

Though I can think of another, much more disappointing reason.

[Warren-Stride]

Warren, I am surprised you didn't go for General Grievous, I know he was a cyborg but he was essentially a droid rather than a Kaleesh.

 

Though I can think of another, much more disappointing reason.

 

Looking back on it, Grievous would have been a more strategic choice, I suppose. At least from a tactics standpoint. But he has his own problems and disadvantages. Mainly I just wanted to keep the whole droid theme going.

 

 

While on the topic of tactics, I'd like to point out that while the DS's number of stereotypical tacticians is lacking, they aren't really needed. The Trade Federation army was controlled by standard Nemoidians, surely Guri could do that. Similarly, the Terror Droids/Troopers are meant for convert ops, which G0-T0 is a master at. And lastly, the Black Sun Fleet could easily be run by the pilots themselves with strategic calculations from G0-T0/Guri, seeing as their smaller ship sizes doesn't require complicated formations.

 

Long story short, a lack of stereotypical tacticians shouldn't be a problem for the DS.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[LadyKulvax]

He'd also be an extremely effective leader killer, Grievous is a Jedi Killer, he was almost as good at killing Jedi as Vader, I am not certain that many characters we have seen so far could take him down, though I believe someone else took him and that didn't go down well.

[Aurbere]

He'd also be an extremely effective leader killer, Grievous is a Jedi Killer, he was almost as good at killing Jedi as Vader, I am not certain that many characters we have seen so far could take him down, though I believe someone else took him and that didn't go down well.

 

Marcelo, yes.

[LadyKulvax]

Moving on from the hacking debate, I definitely think that this is a war where the first move makes or breaks a faction, there won't be any second chances if the Mandalorians lose the first battle, however the droids can't afford to have Geonosis attacked in any way at all IMO. Edited January 14, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Warren, I am surprised you didn't go for General Grievous, I know he was a cyborg but he was essentially a droid rather than a Kaleesh.

 

Though I can think of another, much more disappointing reason.

Grievous has something to say: "I am Grievous, warlord of the Kaleesh and Supreme Commander of the armies of the Confederacy. And I am not a droid!"

 

On a serious note however, Grievous actually hates droids, so I'm not sure how well that would have worked.

[LadyKulvax]

I think the Mandalorian naval advantage is a big one, effectively the Sol'yc can simply ground and pound each planet as much as they want once they have space superiority which with one effective pincer movement they can easily achieve.

[StarSquirrel]

I think the Mandalorian naval advantage is a big one, effectively the Sol'yc can simply ground and pound each planet as much as they want once they have space superiority which with one effective pincer movement they can easily achieve.

 

Agreed

 

Mon Cal is the closest planet to the bulk of the SE's planets. It is the primary shipyard for the DS and if it fell they'd fall far behind the SE in naval production (Bilbringi+Mandalore > Bothawui) not to mention Nek would be able to give fantastic instructions on how to eliminate the Bothans' shipyards.

 

Kamino and Geonosis can be eliminated from space using nukes, or Boba can lead ground teams (which he did successfully after the Clone Wars on Kamino). Nar Shadda might be the biggest challenge, but then again I doubt anyone in the SE would shed a tear if Boba ordered a full nuclear slavo. And good luck to G0-T0 getting off planet, because again, the SE has naval superiority so they just need to set up a blockade.

[Warren-Stride]

Agreed

 

Mon Cal is the closest planet to the bulk of the SE's planets. It is the primary shipyard for the DS and if it fell they'd fall far behind the SE in naval production (Bilbringi+Mandalore > Bothawui) not to mention Nek would be able to give fantastic instructions on how to eliminate the Bothans' shipyards.

 

Kamino and Geonosis can be eliminated from space using nukes, or Boba can lead ground teams (which he did successfully after the Clone Wars on Kamino). Nar Shadda might be the biggest challenge, but then again I doubt anyone in the SE would shed a tear if Boba ordered a full nuclear slavo. And good luck to G0-T0 getting off planet, because again, the SE has naval superiority so they just need to set up a blockade.

 

I'm not sure why we're talking about nukes when I am 100% positive those have been outlawed in the past for being superweapons. If you're referring to orbital bombardment, that's different.

 

Geonosis is entirely underground, basically the whole planet (or at least the factories) are in giant underground bunkers, so orbital bombardment won't be much use there. Kamino is constantly surrounded by storms, which would make identifying targets and coordinates of cities for bombardment extremely difficult. And Bothiwui and Nar Shaddaa both have planetary shields. So orbital bombardment isn't as effective as it's being made out to be.

 

Also, to be clear, Mon Calamari, Nar Shaddaa, Bothawui, and Kamino all have shipyards. Although they may not be the largest, the Black Sun Navy doesn't require large building facilities for its ships.

 

As far as navy goes, the Black Sun Navy is comprised of ships designed to be fast, stealthy, and disruptive. Pirate ships by nature, they will be able to raid SE fleets while they're en-route to DS planets, stalling their offensive and destroying their ships with ambushes. Not only that, but while the SE can invade DS planet all it wants, the DS will undoubtably launch a counter-offensive, with its speedy cargo ships and freighters, supported by frigates, being a quick transportation system for the thousands of battle droids being pumped out. Without at least a significant quantity of SE ships and ground personnel remaining behind to guard, the DS will be even more effective at taking down SE worlds that the SE will be at conquering DS worlds. This is where production really factors in, because both sides will be fighting a war on two fronts. Unfortunately for the SE, it doesn't have the resources to do both effectively.

 

And let us not forget that G0-T0 knows full well about the HK-50 factory on Telos IV. If he or an operative such as Guri reaches that facility, it won't matter if HK-01 is effective or not: those droids will once again serve G0-T0.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[StarSquirrel]

I'm not sure why we're talking about nukes when I am 100% positive those have been outlawed in the past for being superweapons. If you're referring to orbital bombardment, that's different.

Really? so I misread this?

*cough* nuclear missiles *cough* like to see Krayt survive that *cough*

and this?

...Also remember the SE only has to destroy the shipyards, a well timed and well placed nuclear missile or two should achieve that...

Yeah we've never outlawed them, just never could use them on a planet with orbital shields and every opponent I've had has been well defended.

Geonosis is entirely underground, basically the whole planet (or at least the factories) are in giant underground bunkers, so orbital bombardment won't be much use there. Kamino is constantly surrounded by storms, which would make identifying targets and coordinates of cities for bombardment extremely difficult. And Bothiwui and Nar Shaddaa both have planetary shields. So orbital bombardment isn't as effective as it's being made out to be.

And Boba knows Kamino and Geonosis very well, so it isn't a stretch that he'd know this and plan accordingly. He knows where the Kamino cities are and he knows where the droid factories are on Geonosis... At the very least, burying the droid army before arrival would allow the SE to fight on their terms. Bothiwui I can see being an isue, but the SE would never be allowed by Nek to nuke it, so they'd likely just destroy the shipyards from range with the missiles or have a strike team bring down the shield generator (which Nek would be easily capable of planning and Jaina+Boba could execute with Mandalorian supercommandos)

Also, to be clear, Mon Calamari, Nar Shaddaa, Bothawui, and Kamino all have shipyards. Although they may not be the largest, the Black Sun Navy doesn't require large building facilities for its ships.

Kamino didn't have a shipyard... say hello to Rothana which is where GAR ships and vehicles where built. Nar Shadda has the TIE facility, nothing more. Bothiwui and Nar Shadda aren't even close to the combined output of Mandalore and Bilbringi combined.

 

As far as navy goes, the Black Sun Navy is comprised of ships designed to be fast, stealthy, and disruptive. Pirate ships by nature, they will be able to raid SE fleets while they're en-route to DS planets, stalling their offensive and destroying their ships with ambushes. Not only that, but while the SE can invade DS planet all it wants, the DS will undoubtably launch a counter-offensive, with its speedy cargo ships and freighters, supported by frigates, being a quick transportation system for the thousands of battle droids being pumped out. Without at least a significant quantity of SE ships and ground personnel remaining behind to guard, the DS will be even more effective at taking down SE worlds that the SE will be at conquering DS worlds. This is where production really factors in, because both sides will be fighting a war on two fronts. Unfortunately for the SE, it doesn't have the resources to do both effectively.

So you plan to land thousands of battledroids on the fortress world of Esseles, the forest base of Myrkr, the Mandalore homeworld, and the forward staging base of Telos IV (where you have no clue a secret factory exists churning out droids several times smarter and more lethal) while having your navy whittled away (unable to defend your shipyards if they're so far from home) by ships designed to fight smaller frigates and fight-based forces.

 

As to having the resources to defend AND attack. Actually the SE does... The SE uses strike forces, so the bulk of their troops are on their planets staging for deployment. Not to mention where do you think reinforcements come from exactly? Mandalore builds Canderous assault tanks, Telos IV builds HK-50's, Myrkr is just a jungle of fierce predators and guerilla fighters, and Esseles is a fortress world. Bilbringi (the planet) isn't even an issue for the SE and they'll be churning out Kandosii dreadnoughts, Shaadlar-type troopships, Jehavey'ir-type assault ships, and Kyramud-type battleships. All smaller than your average ships of their classes, and much better suited to fighting smaller frigates and freighters (relatively speaking, but they can still wallop bigger ships as well with those missiles and thick armor)

And let us not forget that G0-T0 knows full well about the HK-50 factory on Telos IV. If he or an operative such as Guri reaches that facility, it won't matter if HK-01 is effective or not: those droids will once again serve G0-T0.

Beni said they know the SE has Telos... not that they know the SE has the HK-50 factory (or rather that it is on Telos IV). I don't believe 'who knows what' in relation to the HK-50's and G0-T0 was ever sorted out. (Beni some clarification on who is correct here would be appreciated.) Even if that is the case, G0-T0 can only corrupt whatever new ones get made.

Edited January 15, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Warren-Stride]

Yeah we've never outlawed them, just never could use them on a planet with orbital shields and every opponent I've had has been well defended.

 

If nuclear weapons are not illegal, why would G0-T0 not buy some of his own from Nar Shaddaa? Or biological weapons for that matter? Nuclear weapons aren't unique to the Mandalorian faction. And the argument can be made that the Black Sun Navy would be even more effective at using them considering that almost all of its fighters have hyperspace abilities. They can simply blink in (very close to the planet because they're droids and can calculate that) and release the weapons on the planet. Or, better yet, suicide run smack into the planet directly from hyperspace, exploding the nuclear missile PLUS the extreme impact.

 

And Boba knows Kamino and Geonosis very well, so it isn't a stretch that he'd know this and plan accordingly. He knows where the Kamino cities are and he knows where the droid factories are on Geonosis... At the very least, burying the droid army before arrival would allow the SE to fight on their terms. Bothiwui I can see being an isue, but the SE would never be allowed by Nek to nuke it, so they'd likely just destroy the shipyards from range with the missiles or have a strike team bring down the shield generator (which Nek would be easily capable of planning and Jaina+Boba could execute with Mandalorian supercommandos)

 

If Boba knows about Kamino and Geonosis, what's your logic for G0-T0 not knowing about the HK factory? That makes no sense.

 

Kamino didn't have a shipyard... say hello to Rothana which is where GAR ships and vehicles where built. Nar Shadda has the TIE facility, nothing more. Bothiwui and Nar Shadda aren't even close to the combined output of Mandalore and Bilbringi combined.

 

Kamino was the site of production for the Kamino Home Fleet, according to its Wookieepedia page. And Nar Shaddaa, even if it doesn't have shipyards, has a near endless supply of smuggling and pirate ships that are exactly the kind that the DS uses. G0-T0 can simply buy more from the Black Market.

 

So you plan to land thousands of battledroids on the fortress world of Esseles, the forest base of Myrkr, the Mandalore homeworld, and the forward staging base of Telos IV (where you have no clue a secret factory exists churning out droids several times smarter and more lethal) while having your navy whittled away (unable to defend your shipyards if they're so far from home) by ships designed to fight smaller frigates and fight-based forces.

 

Esseles might be a "fortress world" but it was actually taken over by the CIS during the Clone Wars. So I'm not sure why that planet would be a problem. The only thing "fortress"-like about it is that is has mountains. Forested planet with deadly animals like Myrkr? Sounds kinda like Felucia, where droids did just fine. And again, if you don't have to use invasions, why do I? Using the same mentality as you, why not just nuke/gas the place?

 

As to having the resources to defend AND attack. Actually the SE does... The SE uses strike forces, so the bulk of their troops are on their planets staging for deployment. Not to mention where do you think reinforcements come from exactly? Mandalore builds Canderous assault tanks, Telos IV builds HK-50's, Myrkr is just a jungle of fierce predators and guerilla fighters, and Esseles is a fortress world. Bilbringi (the planet) isn't even an issue for the SE and they'll be churning out Kandosii dreadnoughts, Shaadlar-type troopships, Jehavey'ir-type assault ships, and Kyramud-type battleships. All smaller than your average ships of their classes, and much better suited to fighting smaller frigates and freighters (relatively speaking, but they can still wallop bigger ships as well with those missiles and thick armor)

 

But see, those things cost credits. Even if you say MandalMotors works for free, where is the SE getting the credits to fund Bilbringi? Or the resources, for that matter? Where do you think reinforcements come from exactly? Not from thin air.

 

Beni said they know the SE has Telos... not that they know the SE has the HK-50 factory (or rather that it is on Telos IV). I don't believe 'who knows what' in relation to the HK-50's and G0-T0 was ever sorted out. (Beni some clarification on who is correct here would be appreciated.) Even if that is the case, G0-T0 can only corrupt whatever new ones get made.

 

Again, I have no idea how you can say that Boba knows the ins and outs of Kamino and Geonosis and then not give one of my leadership the same benefit of knowing about planets he's been to before.

 

 

 

 

As a side note, this is why I hate Base Delta Zero/Orbital Bombardment/Nuclear Weapons stuff. Because in the end, it just becomes a way around actually dealing with the ground forces of a battle, and makes the whole thing a lot less epic and a lot more like a giant "Oh yeah, well my forces can do this and you lose so ha!" thing. Seriously, I have no idea why it isn't outlawed, because (at least for me) it completely devalues the planets and ground forces each faction has. But if that's how we're going to play it, why not just have the SE and DS just nuke each other into oblivion? That sounds reasonable.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

As a side note, this is why I hate Base Delta Zero/Orbital Bombardment/Nuclear Weapons stuff. Because in the end, it just becomes a way around actually dealing with the ground forces of a battle, and makes the whole thing a lot less epic and a lot more like a giant "Oh yeah, well my forces can do this and you lose so ha!" thing. Seriously, I have no idea why it isn't outlawed, because (at least for me) it completely devalues the planets and ground forces each faction has. But if that's how we're going to play it, why not just have the SE and DS just nuke each other into oblivion? That sounds reasonable.

 

The same could said for stealth craft and fleets.

 

Sorry to be blunt, but deal with it

[StarSquirrel]

If nuclear weapons are not illegal, why would G0-T0 not buy some of his own from Nar Shaddaa? Or biological weapons for that matter? Nuclear weapons aren't unique to the Mandalorian faction. And the argument can be made that the Black Sun Navy would be even more effective at using them considering that almost all of its fighters have hyperspace abilities. They can simply blink in (very close to the planet because they're droids and can calculate that) and release the weapons on the planet. Or, better yet, suicide run smack into the planet directly from hyperspace, exploding the nuclear missile PLUS the extreme impact.

We can start with the fact your faction is not known to use them (militarily or otherwise) whereas the Mandalorian Fleet is quite well known on lore for using Nukes. Now I'll admit suiciding ships into the SE fleet is a valid strategy that may be employed, but nuclear weapons being used at all isn't a common occurrence except in the well-know case of the Mandalorians.

 

 

If Boba knows about Kamino and Geonosis, what's your logic for G0-T0 not knowing about the HK factory? That makes no sense.

Because Boba grew up on these planets while G0-T0 never spent much if any time in the HK-50 factory and as a droid it'd be less odd for us to argue he doesn't have memory of that. essentially Kamino and Geonosis are essential parts of Boba's character while the HK-50 factory isn't in regards to G0-T0. That said, I'm still waiting for Beni to make a final descision and can live with it either way.

 

 

Kamino was the site of production for the Kamino Home Fleet, according to its Wookieepedia page. And Nar Shaddaa, even if it doesn't have shipyards, has a near endless supply of smuggling and pirate ships that are exactly the kind that the DS uses. G0-T0 can simply buy more from the Black Market.

Yeah, a quick look shows that not only is there no information on this "home fleet". What was it composed of? How long did it take to build? Where was it built (directly over the planet or nearby)? I also see no reference to it in any of the battles that took place over Kamino. If there in fact was such a fleet, then explain how there where only 2 acclamators and some Aethersprite interceptors guarding the planet during The first Battrle of Kamino. I think this is more or less an error on the part of Wookieepedia. Unless someone comes up with an encyclopedia article or reference to counter me. (In that case I would yield that point.)

 

Also, as for the criminal elements on Nar Shadda... eh I don't see them risking their ships for a rival criminal gang (the Exchange) and from my (albeit limited) knowledge of syndicats on Nar Shadda, the exchange presence was rather small. The Exchange is also not Black Sun, its resources aren't even close to unlimited. But thats for Beni to decide, still it'll bleed them dry if the DS tries to buy criminals to go on nuclear suicide missions all in the name of droid supremacy.

 

Esseles might be a "fortress world" but it was actually taken over by the CIS during the Clone Wars. So I'm not sure why that planet would be a problem. The only thing "fortress"-like about it is that is has mountains. Forested planet with deadly animals like Myrkr? Sounds kinda like Felucia, where droids did just fine. And again, if you don't have to use invasions, why do I? Using the same mentality as you, why not just nuke/gas the place?

Empire era Esseles was a fortress world. With, ya know, huge fortresses and a planetary shield ect... Not to mention, I'd like to see droids handle that terrain while avoiding traps, ambushes, and angry mandalorians with jet-packs. Ok, I'll give you Myrkr... won't do the SE a ton of good, still why even bother? Because DS would actually want Mandalore (for tanks/droids/ships) and Telos (for resources as well). Esseles they don't have a choice thanks to the shield. As for gas, Mandalorians wear helmets... so uh, no. Still you can make that argument, see how it goes.

 

 

 

But see, those things cost credits. Even if you say MandalMotors works for free, where is the SE getting the credits to fund Bilbringi? Or the resources, for that matter? Where do you think reinforcements come from exactly? Not from thin air.

Bilbringi is a freakin self-sustaining + exporting resources machine. The asteroids are mined for resources, Telos and Esseles have large populations to be taxed and Mandalmotors is certainly not in any financial hardships . The SE is self-sustaining, able to produce and process most of the resources it needs and the few it can't get it has plenty of money to purchase. Mandalore, Telos, and Esseles all have decent populations. Also remember, the SE is quality>quantity. They don't build as much, but everything they build is many times better than what the DS makes. That said, the SE does outproduce the DS in ships if Mon Cal is eliminated from the equation.

 

Again, I have no idea how you can say that Boba knows the ins and outs of Kamino and Geonosis and then not give one of my leadership the same benefit of knowing about planets he's been to before.

I'd like to see G0-T0 not know, but as I've said in every single post I have made on that topic, I appealed to beni to answer the question of "who knows what".

 

As a side note, this is why I hate Base Delta Zero/Orbital Bombardment/Nuclear Weapons stuff. Because in the end, it just becomes a way around actually dealing with the ground forces of a battle, and makes the whole thing a lot less epic and a lot more like a giant "Oh yeah, well my forces can do this and you lose so ha!" thing. Seriously, I have no idea why it isn't outlawed, because (at least for me) it completely devalues the planets and ground forces each faction has. But if that's how we're going to play it, why not just have the SE and DS just nuke each other into oblivion? That sounds reasonable.

 

Sel is right. That said, some factions would have reasons for capturing (power/greed/care for the people) as opposed to annihilating a planet. Thing is, your faction has such a history of hating living things that this is a fight for survival for the SE. They won't take prisoners and they don't see their droid opponents as worthy of any respect like they may worry about the lives of organic beings. Everyone in my faction lived through the Vong invasion. The Ends Justify the Means was a common philosophy among them when the threat of extermination is at hand.

[Beniboybling]

Nuclear weapons aren't really superweapons by Star Wars standards, just big bombs, probably not even that big. Bioweapons etc. are not outlawed either. This isn't the 21st century people.

 

EDIT: Pretty sure planetary shields can withstand nuclear bombardment as well.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Beni said they know the SE has Telos... not that they know the SE has the HK-50 factory (or rather that it is on Telos IV). I don't believe 'who knows what' in relation to the HK-50's and G0-T0 was ever sorted out. (Beni some clarification on who is correct here would be appreciated.) Even if that is the case, G0-T0 can only corrupt whatever new ones get made.

G0-T0 knows of Telos, and he knows of the HK-50 factory. He doesn't know that the Sol'yc Empire are in possession of said factory, though he would likely find out. He has no control over the factory or the droids produced however.

 

EDIT: Does he have the schematics in that big droid brain of his? Probably.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Beniboybling

[StarSquirrel]

G0-T0 knows of Telos, and he knows of the HK-50 factory. He doesn't know that the Sol'yc Empire are in possession of said factory, though he would likely find out. He has no control over the factory or the droids produced however.

 

Alrighty, cool. So he might at some point try and claim the factory when he goes to attack the planet. That said he'll have bigger fish to fry as far as the invading Sol'yc armada. Until HK-50's are brought onto the battlefield Telos isn't a big issue for the DS.

[Beniboybling]

Alrighty, cool. So he might at some point try and claim the factory when he goes to attack the planet. That said he'll have bigger fish to fry as far as the invading Sol'yc armada. Until HK-50's are brought onto the battlefield Telos isn't a big issue for the DS.

Let's not forget thought that there is an Exchange presence on the planet.

[LadyKulvax]

I think that essentially, the Sol'yc Empire has everything to lose in a naval engagement, they have the commanders, the navy and the production to sustain and grow ever larger, It will get to the point where hit and run attacks and ambushes will be completely irrrelevant, because the Sol'yc can produce faster than the Black Sun can even destroy them as far as I see it.

 

if the Droids hope to win at all in any naval engagement, they will need to strike at the production facilities and shipyards the Sol'yc has, which is not going to be easy by any measure.

[Aurbere]

I think that essentially, the Sol'yc Empire has everything to lose in a naval engagement, they have the commanders, the navy and the production to sustain and grow ever larger, It will get to the point where hit and run attacks and ambushes will be completely irrrelevant, because the Sol'yc can produce faster than the Black Sun can even destroy them as far as I see it.

 

if the Droids hope to win at all in any naval engagement, they will need to strike at the production facilities and shipyards the Sol'yc has, which is not going to be easy by any measure.

 

Well pirate forces specialize in convoy raids and the like. The Black Sun navy is more than capable of doing this, it just depends on what is defending these production facilities (heavily reliant on SE campaign strategy).

 

But I do agree that the Mandalorian Navy is a powerful collection of vessels that is more than enough to win any straight-up engagement.

[Silenceo]

I think that essentially, the Sol'yc Empire has everything to lose in a naval engagement, they have the commanders, the navy and the production to sustain and grow ever larger, It will get to the point where hit and run attacks and ambushes will be completely irrrelevant, because the Sol'yc can produce faster than the Black Sun can even destroy them as far as I see it.

 

if the Droids hope to win at all in any naval engagement, they will need to strike at the production facilities and shipyards the Sol'yc has, which is not going to be easy by any measure.

 

I concur with this statement. While the Droid army may start as the larger of the two, the longer the conflict goes on, the more effective the Mandalorians will be. Not only are they often elite fighters, but they have threatened the galaxy before and only been pushed back by key individuals such as Revan. We also have seen in the Clone Wars that while the Droid army is effective when it faces an enemy face to face, it is severely weak if their opponents are constantly maneuvering. Something that Mandalorians do every time they fight.

 

As for the navies, i have to give it straight up to the Mandalorians as well. What i see when i look at the two factions is essentially an armada of Pirates with military grade weaponry trying to challenge the strength of the Mandalorian culture. On numerous occasions both have been defeated, but what keeps both of them alive throughout the galaxy is what defines them. For the Mandalorians, they have come to the brink of extinction many times over, yet always persevere and rebuild their society. As for the pirates, they are often spread across the galaxy beneath the notice of the law, evading it whenever they can.

 

In a fight such as this there is no "beneath notice" for the pirates, they are constantly going to be hunted and targeted. Their ships are fast, and effective at attacking, stealing whatever they can grab, then retreating. However, how useful will that be if those they must attack, are as heavily armed and armored, not to mention prepared, as the Mandalorian fleet?

 

As for the Mandalorians when it comes to their navy, while they are not as *powerful* in a brawl in space as some of the other factions, they make up for it in their versatility and ability to adapt to any situation. Something that droids lack. They utilize small, compact ships which can pack one heck of a wallop. Not as fast as a pirates vessel, but much, much, studier and war capable. What i fear it will come down to is that the Black Sun is not equiped for a war, but rather equiped to take advantage of others weaknesses. They will excel at fighting where the Mandalorian's defenses are weak, perhaps even at a shipyard. But can they halt an advance by the Mandalorians who are determined to strike at their heart?

 

If somehow the Droids are able to corner Mandalorian forces on the ground and use their superior numbers to their own advantage, even then i doubt that it will be an easy fight. Mandalorians have gone down in such situations many times before, often taking a large portion of the enemy with them. How many times can that be afforded?

 

Both are fearsome factions, but i feel that while the Droid Supremacy starts with the advantage, it is not large enough to stop the Sol'yc Empire from withstanding their assault and eventually turning it against them as they have done in the past. After all, these are warriors who have faced down Jedi man-to-man. Can the Droid/Pirate Armada say the same?

[LadyKulvax]

Well pirate forces specialize in convoy raids and the like. The Black Sun navy is more than capable of doing this, it just depends on what is defending these production facilities (heavily reliant on SE campaign strategy).

 

But I do agree that the Mandalorian Navy is a powerful collection of vessels that is more than enough to win any straight-up engagement.

 

The Mandalorian Navy was enormous, frankly I think they can both defend themselves and attack the Droid Supremacy simultaneously.

 

Those Kandosii battleships are absolute flying fortresses with enormous fire-power and they had hundreds of them.

Edited January 16, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

The Mandalorian Navy was enormous, frankly I think they can both defend themselves and attack the Droid Supremacy simultaneously.

 

Those Keldabe battleships are absolute flying fortresses with enormous fire-power and they had hundreds of them.

 

Point, of course. Just trying to pitch in for Warren while I decide which side to pick.

[Warren-Stride]

May be too early to talk end game, but I'm gonna do it anyways.

 

If G0-T0 sees that the odds are stacked against him, he won’t hesitate to abandon ship. (Ex: Abandoning his entire Exchange Cell after the destruction of the Visionary) However, G0-T0 also loves to make his enemies believe that he is untouchable. (Ex: The use of a “Goto” persona that never appeared in person and remained cloaked in mystery) So, G0-T0 will, most likely, scatter his duplicates across Droid Supremacy worlds, which makes it entirely necessary for the SE to attack each and every one. HK-01 will be left to command his new droid army and do what he pleases with it. The worlds are insignificant to G0-T0’s primary objective: killing Tenel Ka Djo.

 

So with several “G0-T0s” haunting DS worlds and the army operating as it would normally, the SE will have no idea that G0-T0 has ditched his worlds and gone to end the Kaggath.

 

And all he needs to do it? His Exchange contacts, a dozen or so Terror Troopers, Guri, PROXY, and a fast ship. All else is, for the purposes of assassinating Tenel Ka Djo, irrelevant. (Ex: G0-T0 joins the Exile in a small, strike-team like group to achieve a goal much more directly that before)

 

Taking into account that Tenel Ka Djo is a queen, and the throne is undoubtedly on Esseles, that is where she will be. And why shouldn't she be there? She’s dealt with assassination attempts just fine in the past, the DS is making no offenses into her space, the war is going well, and she’s surrounded by her most trusted Mandalorians, HKs, etc.

 

And thus the grand plan.

 

 

Stage One: Gaining Access to SE Space and Esseles’ Spaceport

 

Option 1: Have a Nar Shaddaa contact modify the identity signature of a DS ship to match the identity code of a SE ship

(Ex: In KotOR II, this process is done to the Ebon Hawk)

• Suboption A: Obtain codes by having Telos Exchange operatives take them from an existing ship
  (Ex: As seen in KotOR II when you inspect several smuggler ships docked at a spaceport)
  
• Suboption B: Have a HK-01 corrupted droid transmit them from a SE base
  (Ex: As accomplished by T3-M4 in Vogga’s warehouse during KotOR II)
  

 

Option 2: Steal a ship and have PROXY impersonate the pilot

 

Option 3: Buy a ship from a SE freighter captain

(Ex: G0-T0 paid enough credits to Ubese assassins for them to NOT kill a Jedi… That’s some serious cash)

 

At the end of this stage, a ship would be in DS possession that looks unsuspicious to SE inspectors. The assassination team (G0-T0, Guri, PROXY, and Terror Troopers) would pile onboard and head out.

 

Stage Two: Get to Esseles

 

Option 1: Go deep undercover and act as a legitimate transport/supply/freighter pilot for the SE for a run or two to eliminate possible suspicion, then head to Esseles unhindered

 

Option 2: Fake an SOS along Esseles’ nearest hyperspace route, then steal that civilian ship and continue to Esseles in a ship that was designated to go there

 

Option 3: Go straight to Esseles

 

At the end of this stage, G0-T0 and his team are above Esseles, ready to land and begin their assault.

 

Stage Three: Land on Esseles and avoid Spaceport Security

 

Option 1: Have PROXY impersonate a wealthy businessman and have Guri be his arm candy, and claim that the two of them are going to the entertainment district of Esseles’ capital (have G0-T0 and the Terror Troopers sneak out of the ship full stealth mode)

 

Option 2: Have PROXY impersonate Boba Fett and have Guri be his prisoner while the others sneak out stealth-like (only a temporary mirage, but an effective one for getting people out of their way and to stop asking questions)

 

Option 3: Have a Terror Trooper kill a security guard, then have PROXY impersonate him while Guri and the rest of the team sneak out of the hanger and use his authorization to clear their landing as unsuspicious

 

At the end of this stage, G0-T0 and his team are safely on Esseles and have blended into the crowd via stealth and disguise.

 

Stage Four: Reaching the Palace

 

Option 1: Abandon Guri and PROXY, head to the estate with stealthed Terror Troopers and G0-T0 completely unseen

 

Option 2: Pay someone who works at the palace, like a maid or janitor, to get them access (again, G0-T0 convinced Ubese not to kill a Jedi)

• Suboption A: Use G0-T0’s alter ego “Goto,” who is not seen as an enemy because he is not a droid, to pay out someone
  
• Suboption B: Intimidate via Guri an employee/noble into gaining access
  

 

Option 3: Hijack the next shuttle scheduled to land at the Palace, with PROXY posing as the pilot

 

At the end of this stage, G0-T0 and his team are inside the palace of Tenel Ka Djo, and are ready to strike at the queen herself. The palace security is completely oblivious to their presence, or at least the presence of the stealthed members of the team.

 

Stage Five: Assassinate the Queen

 

Option 1: Stealthed Death

• Suboption A: Terror Troopers are silent and deadly. Also able to fade in and out of sight at will. Also able to dodge Starkiller’s lightsaber swings. One could easily slit Tenel Ka Djo’s throat with a claw.
  
• Suboption B: G0-T0 himself personally injects the queen with poison after sneaking up on her
  

 

Option 2: Standard Assassination

• Suboption A: G0-T0’s “corrupt droid” programming convinces a droid in the palace to blow up in the throne room, stab the queen, etc.
  
• Suboption B: Tenel Ka Djo’s food is poisoned
  
• Suboption C: Guri or the Terror Troopers wait in her bed chambers, then strike when she is vulnerable
  
• Suboption D: PROXY impersonates a guard or another being who would see the queen, then shoots her
  
• Suboption E: PROXY impersonates someone the Queen trusts, such as Boba Fett or Nek, then kills her when her guard is down
  
• Suboption F: Gas from the Jekk Jekk Tar is released into a room the Queen is in
  

 

Option 3: Assault the Throne Room

• Suboption A: Combine a full force attack by Guri/PROXY with a stealthed attack described in Option 1
  
• Suboption B: Sacrafice Guri or PROXY in order to position the Terror Troopers to eliminate the guards in one clean sweep as they spread themselves out around the room
  
• Suboption C: Send PROXY in lightsaber-wielding and then pour in the others after him
  

 

At the end of this stage, Tenel Ka Djo is dead and the Kaggath is over.

 

 

Unfortunately, I am not a droid. However, if I did possess a super-powered brain like Guri or G0-T0, I would be able to calculate which of these possibilities had the most likelihood of success. And that is the course they would take to eliminate the Head of State and end the Kaggath.

 

If anyone feels compelled to ignore all this and say it would never work, I challenge them to find a way to kill G0-T0. I promise the likelihood of a plan like this happening is MUCH greater than a plan that involves actually destroying G0-T0.

[LadyKulvax]

Yeh for me that's where Warren's got you by the Giant **** Guns Squirrel. Edited January 16, 2014 by LadyKulvax