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Changes Needed for Jugg Tanking In PVE.


AgustusCaesar

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I am putting together this post for the Jugg tanks out there that have concerns about what short comings our class has in PVE. All of the post's i have read are all concerned with the PVP DPS aspect . There is no reference to Tanking in PVE even on the class rep page. Before I go any further , let me repeat my self, this is for PVE TANKING ISSUES ONLY.

 

I am on the POTF and I have both of the timed runs completed for SnV and TFB. My Toons Name is Zain-czar. Over all Enjoy the way this class plays , although there are 3 areas where the class is week and need improving.

 

#1Threat Generation

#2 DPS out put

#3 Offensive cool downs

 

I think these are all in the same issue. As gear Progresses Threat generation from DPS out paces threat generation from Jugg tanks. This had become a huge problem before in 1.7, and now As gear Is reaching Its final level, The issue is happening again. Also , both assassins and Pyro tanks have higher threat and DPS generation than a Jugg. We are talking about a DPS difference of about 300-500 In full 78's. To those of you who may not think this is an issue or a small gap let me put this into prospective, When you finish the fight and one tank is sitting at 1200 DPS and the Jugg is sitting 700 DPS that is a huge discrepancy. If you add a few zeros behind those numbers and talk about a DPS class being underpowered then you will se the comparison. 1,300,000 damage vs 700,000 Is a huge gap. This is also a comparison of the treat generation between Juggs and the other tanking classes.

 

It is my opinion that a slight bump in overall DPS would help close the gape between the Jugg and the other tank classes in both threat generation and DPS. To aid with the problem adding an Offensive cool down will help . Considering Juggs have NO cool down like this what so ever, and both of the other tanking classes do, adding this will tip the scales back into balance. I understand that something like this is being called for by most Juggs regardless of spec. I believe adding a buff to "Enrage" so the ability will be more then just a resource generation would be the most efficient.

 

Every class has its own play style , but in the area of maintaining control of adds or even bosses, Threat generation has always been a struggle. If you come from playing the other 2 tanking classes and roll a Jugg you find it very hard to maintain threat, Or at least not as easy to maintain control as it was on your pyro or your assassin.

 

Zain

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Good post.

 

As you may already know, I have commented on the Immortal tanking problems in pvp. While in different battlefields, we are cut of the same cloth...brothers from different mothers.

 

1. Increase retaliation's base damage by 300%

 

2. Add substantial internal damage over time to our force push.

 

3. Boost shielding perk by 4-8% per point, instead of 2-4%

 

4. Remove range requirements on Charge.

 

5. Enable shield-break mechanism.......wait a sec, are you going to get mad at me?

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I am putting together this post for the Jugg tanks out there that have concerns about what short comings our class has in PVE. All of the post's i have read are all concerned with the PVP DPS aspect . There is no reference to Tanking in PVE even on the class rep page. Before I go any further , let me repeat my self, this is for PVE TANKING ISSUES ONLY.

 

I am on the POTF and I have both of the timed runs completed for SnV and TFB. My Toons Name is Zain-czar. Over all Enjoy the way this class plays , although there are 3 areas where the class is week and need improving.

 

#1Threat Generation

#2 DPS out put

#3 Offensive cool downs

 

I think these are all in the same issue. As gear Progresses Threat generation from DPS out paces threat generation from Jugg tanks. This had become a huge problem before in 1.7, and now As gear Is reaching Its final level, The issue is happening again. Also , both assassins and Pyro tanks have higher threat and DPS generation than a Jugg. We are talking about a DPS difference of about 300-500 In full 78's. To those of you who may not think this is an issue or a small gap let me put this into prospective, When you finish the fight and one tank is sitting at 1200 DPS and the Jugg is sitting 700 DPS that is a huge discrepancy. If you add a few zeros behind those numbers and talk about a DPS class being underpowered then you will se the comparison. 1,300,000 damage vs 700,000 Is a huge gap. This is also a comparison of the treat generation between Juggs and the other tanking classes.

 

It is my opinion that a slight bump in overall DPS would help close the gape between the Jugg and the other tank classes in both threat generation and DPS. To aid with the problem adding an Offensive cool down will help . Considering Juggs have NO cool down like this what so ever, and both of the other tanking classes do, adding this will tip the scales back into balance. I understand that something like this is being called for by most Juggs regardless of spec. I believe adding a buff to "Enrage" so the ability will be more then just a resource generation would be the most efficient.

 

Every class has its own play style , but in the area of maintaining control of adds or even bosses, Threat generation has always been a struggle. If you come from playing the other 2 tanking classes and roll a Jugg you find it very hard to maintain threat, Or at least not as easy to maintain control as it was on your pyro or your assassin.

 

Zain

 

The damage difference between Jugg tanks and every other tank is actually negligible at this point. I do more damage than pretty much any tank of any class I've ever seen and I'm a Juggernaught. I average around 1200 DPS on most fights and I only have a 72 mainhand (mostly 78, though). Damage was a real problem pre-2.0 when even at the very best, Jugg tanks would do 100 or less DPS than a similar Assassin or Powertech, but currently, that issue has been resolved.

 

The priority system and rotation for Jugg tanks is much more difficult to master than it is for any other tank class. The other tank classes just use a lot less skills and have simpler rotations overall when it comes to both single target and AoE DPS. In a single target rotation, Shadows/Assassins only use up to 7 skills while Vanguards/Powertechs use up to 9. The Juggernaught uses 14 with all classes using 1 more possible skill for extra AoE. I don't know what your rotation is like, but something is definitely off so I'd need to know what you are doing to offer suggestions.

 

As for threat generation, Juggs are a little behind, but we can use Saber Reflect for a free 8.6k threat to make up for it. This isn't ideal of course, though, as wasting a defensive cooldown just to gain some threat is not a great choice unless the boss has nothing for you to Reflect in the next minute, anyways. Enrage is the only pseudo-offensive cooldown we have and using it at the beginning does allow us to go all out in our opener without using Sundering Assault for a while. Later, it gives us the extra Rage we need for 2 Vicious Slashes, each of which does about 700 more damage than our normal auto-attack, Assault (almost double its damage). If the developers were able to give the threat boost from Saber Reflect to Enrage, that'd be a welcome boost to our initial threat generation. It would also boost our threat generation in general as we could use it every 45 seconds, which would help for future threat generation and for AoE threat.

Edited by Vaidinah
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I don't know if you are geared or specked for DPS, Or maybe there are better quality tanks on the POTF than on the Harbinger, ether way I know my rotation is not in question. Both of the other tank classes can out DPS a similarly geared Jugg tank by a difference of 300-500 dps on average.

Also, Threat generation has a direct correlation to DPS from a tank. So your statement confuses me slightly, You don't agree there is a DPS shortage on Jugg tanks but you do agree that they need a threat boost and would benefit from an Offensive Cool down, Or at least a Buff to "enrage". You seem to forget that the other 2 tanks start with max resources. While the Jugg started with none. So we need ot have some way of generating rage hence the "enrage " ability. All tanks having ability to recover recourse with ability like out Sundering assault. There is no advantage in this area between any of the classes there.

Ether way , the main idea behind the original post was there is a Threat Generation shortage from Jugg tanks, and there is a Slight DPS shortage as well. A good way to over come both is to ad a buff to "Enrage" to add a offensive ability to it rather than having just a resource ability. Both other Tanks classes have resource ability so they are able to open up just a s hard on targets plus they both have offensive cool downs while juggs have none.

 

The Offensive cool down for PT is a rang and tech crit bonus of 25% for 15 sec = 10-12 GCD about.

 

The Offensive cool down for a AS is Increase crit chance of 60% to force for 2 GCD. Also it increases the range of the range attack out to 30 m Ability last 20sec.

 

The Offensive cool down for Guard is Nothing ...

 

Adding a slight Buff to the DR from stance is a good idea as well. But only a minor increase 3-5%

 

Adding a Buff to the Resource ability will Provide the extra dps needed to balance the Jugg with the other tanking classes.

Edited by AgustusCaesar
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Enrage idea. Not bad only issue is the bonus would have to be measured against it's CD. If your comparing directly to other tanks Offensive CD's, ours is only half of theirs (or less). And i don't think the actual offensive bonus should be universal. This could easily throw off the balance of DPS in the other trees. So perhaps a talent addition that would increase damage by 3-4% (this would also increase threat as well).

 

Note on Defenses: We don't need any more. Prior to the last update we were often the tank of choice already do to our stable mitigations, plus our MULTIPLE DEFENSIVE CD's, which neither other class has really (PT has one, as does assassin for the most part). Most Jugg's who never played the other tank classes may not know it, but assassins/shadows were hurting quite a bit prior to the mitigation changes. were quite solid from a DR point fo view. The only thing I'd suggest to Bio is to work on mitigation coefficients more.

 

The extra damage we would do would handle most of the threat issues as well. The only other thing I'd add to the mix is possibly a skill higher up that would reduce our shockwave CD on successful shielding or something like that. some way to cut down the CD a few seconds so we can get access to the AoE threat from smash a bit sooner.

 

Honestly, aside from the creeping threat issue (which has plagued us since day one really), were in a great spot as tanks. probably one of the best balanced specs in the game Imo. Doesn't mean we don't need tweaking...I'm still not sure why they cant just add 3-5% more threat gen to Soresu...but meh. I like the above ideas within reason, and i do agree with you on our limitations.

Edited by Elyx
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The DR was a passing thought,What tanks does not want more DR right.

I was only illustrating that the Jugg does not have a DPS bonus of any sort.

You are correct that it would have to be a slight increase due to how often the cool down is available.

Now that Blade turning has finely been fixed, that has given Juggs 2 ability's that will 100% negate some mechanics.

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I don't know if you are geared or specked for DPS, Or maybe there are better quality tanks on the POTF than on the Harbinger, ether way I know my rotation is not in question. Both of the other tank classes can out DPS a similarly geared Jugg tank by a difference of 300-500 dps on average.

Also, Threat generation has a direct correlation to DPS from a tank. So your statement confuses me slightly, You don't agree there is a DPS shortage on Jugg tanks but you do agree that they need a threat boost and would benefit from an Offensive Cool down, Or at least a Buff to "enrage". You seem to forget that the other 2 tanks start with max resources. While the Jugg started with none. So we need ot have some way of generating rage hence the "enrage " ability. All tanks having ability to recover recourse with ability like out Sundering assault. There is no advantage in this area between any of the classes there.

Ether way , the main idea behind the original post was there is a Threat Generation shortage from Jugg tanks, and there is a Slight DPS shortage as well. A good way to over come both is to ad a buff to "Enrage" to add a offensive ability to it rather than having just a resource ability. Both other Tanks classes have resource ability so they are able to open up just a s hard on targets plus they both have offensive cool downs while juggs have none.

 

The Offensive cool down for PT is a rang and tech crit bonus of 25% for 15 sec = 10-12 GCD about.

 

The Offensive cool down for a AS is Increase crit chance of 60% to force for 2 GCD. Also it increases the range of the range attack out to 30 m Ability last 20sec.

 

The Offensive cool down for Guard is Nothing ...

 

Adding a slight Buff to the DR from stance is a good idea as well. But only a minor increase 3-5%

 

Adding a Buff to the Resource ability will Provide the extra dps needed to balance the Jugg with the other tanking classes.

 

I run the standard 36/8/2 Full Immortal spec and I use all tank gear with zero accuracy, alacrity, and other DPS stats. All my mods are unlettered and I only use a reusable fortitude stim and armor adrenals. I also have an Assassin and Vanguard. With the Assassin and my main Juggernaught, I've mastered the rotations so I don't know of any way you can do 300-500 more DPS on a non-Juggernaught tank. I'd be interested in seeing a tank of any class doing 1500-1700 single target DPS on average, but that is very unlikely.

 

Anyways, for the case between damage and threat, it's true that they are tied heavily together, but there are definitely differences. For example, Assassins have the best threat because they use many high threat abilities frequently like Shock and Wither (as well as Discharge if needed for AoE or the debuff). Then, they have their very high initial burst with Force Pull (8.6k threat) and Recklessness fueling their first Force Lightning and Shock thereafter. So Assassins are tops for snap + overall threat and have good damage with a simple rotation.

 

Vanguards are a little different in that they have almost no high threat abilities (literally just 1 very low damage ability), but have better DPS bonuses in their spec and the Battle Focus buff for 25% extra crit as you mentioned, but it also has a 2 minute cooldown. Their pull is terrible for threat generation (only 2.8k from what I remember), but like Juggernaughts they can use a defensive cooldown (Shoulder Cannon) for extra threat and in their case DPS as well. Thus, Vanguards have great snap threat with average overall threat and damage with a decent rotation.

 

Then we have Juggernaughts, which have 4 high threat abilities, but half of which are on high cooldowns (Saber Reflect and Backhand). The other two are on 12 second cooldowns (Smash + Crushing Blow) with Crushing Blow giving a massive amount of threat (due to high damage + high threat bonus and the follow-up Retaliation). If we use Enrage and Saber Reflect at the beginning, we have similarly great snap threat to Assassins and Vanguards (but waste a defensive cooldown) with average overall threat and have good damage with a difficult rotation.

 

This is why I'd rather they put the threat boost from Saber Reflect on Enrage since that should be used in the opener in the first place. It's true that we start off with absolutely no resources and have to build them up unlike the other tanks, but even so, with the 6 Rage from Enrage and taking damage from a boss, we can delay Sundering Assault for literally 15 seconds to get all our stronger skills in. This gives us enough breathing room to get off 3 taunts, which will get us in the clear.

 

In the end, if they want to buff Enrage in some way to help out with our damage and/or threat, that'd be nice.

Edited by Vaidinah
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I run the standard 36/8/2 Full Immortal spec and I use all tank gear with zero accuracy, alacrity, and other DPS stats. All my mods are unlettered and I only use a reusable fortitude stim and armor adrenals. I also have an Assassin and Vanguard. With the Assassin and my main Juggernaught, I've mastered the rotations so I don't know of any way you can do 300-500 more DPS on a non-Juggernaught tank. I'd be interested in seeing a tank of any class doing 1500-1700 single target DPS on average, but that is very unlikely.

 

On a fight where I'm being hit at extremely high frequency and I can remain static and just mash my rotation, I can pull 1500 DPS on my shadow without breaking a sweat. 1700 would require at least two other targets getting splashed by Slow Time (maybe three). A good example of this is the Toth and Zorn trash pull in Dread Palace (before Raptus) and the "annoying tiny white things that hit oddly hard" trash pull before Calphayus. First phase of TfB almost qualifies.

 

I do have the 78 main hand though, which helps a lot. Before I got the MH, the best I could pull was around 1300-1400, depending on splash.

 

...

 

Then we have Juggernaughts, which have 4 high threat abilities, but half of which are on high cooldowns (Saber Reflect and Backhand). The other two are on 12 second cooldowns (Smash + Crushing Blow) with Crushing Blow giving a massive amount of threat (due to high damage + high threat bonus and the follow-up Retaliation). If we use Enrage and Saber Reflect at the beginning, we have similarly great snap threat to Assassins and Vanguards (but waste a defensive cooldown) with average overall threat and have good damage with a difficult rotation.

 

I agree 100% with your categorizations. I do think that the *optimal* Jugg rotation is harder than the Assassin rotation in terms of steady state maintenance. The Assassin rotation is much more punishing, since your mitigation drops at the very hint of imperfection and you have to think ahead quite a bit, both in terms of fight mechanics and rotation, but the rotational structure is less involved. The Smash vs Scream proc in the Jugg rotation is (I find) what makes things tricky, and generally where people mess up. Granted, it's generally not a problem if you mess that up outside the opener, since sustained threat is a non-issue due to taunt fluffing, but sub-optimal is sub-optimal.

 

In the end, if they want to buff Enrage in some way to help out with our damage and/or threat, that'd be nice.

 

I'd like to see the following:

 

  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

 

Buffing Enrage would be nice, though it would really only help with the opener, which is frankly not the most difficult part of Jugg tanking (anymore). The only real "problems" that I see with the Jugg rotation are a) the fact that you can't use Saber Throw without having your DPS hold off a GCD, and b) Revenge doesn't proc enough to keep Smash and Scream always on CD and always free.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Because of how static it is, the difference between a good jugg and a bad jugg comes down to extra uses of vicious slash, which isn't very exciting or rewarding. Lowering the duration of the crushing blow damage reduction buff slightly, lowering the rage cost of vicious slash, and causing vicious slash to incrementally lower the cooldown of force scream are some of my ideas to make it more dynamic.

 

The number one issue though is ranged threat generation. We should be able to comfortably manage ranged trash without a saber reflect. A jugg can do it, but its unnecessarily hard compared to how trivial it is on the sin and even the pt in comparison. After tanking on the PT for year, the severe close range restriction on abilities is one the starkest differences I noticed switching to the Jugg.

 

I'd like to see the following:

 

  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

These are good ideas. If saber throw had a much shorter cooldown or some AoE component as well it would remove the current crutch we have on saber reflect.

Edited by Marb
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On a fight where I'm being hit at extremely high frequency and I can remain static and just mash my rotation, I can pull 1500 DPS on my shadow without breaking a sweat. 1700 would require at least two other targets getting splashed by Slow Time (maybe three). A good example of this is the Toth and Zorn trash pull in Dread Palace (before Raptus) and the "annoying tiny white things that hit oddly hard" trash pull before Calphayus. First phase of TfB almost qualifies.

 

I do have the 78 main hand though, which helps a lot. Before I got the MH, the best I could pull was around 1300-1400, depending on splash.

 

I can definitely see that. I just got my 78 mainhand last week so I'll see if my DPS is at the same place. My highest DPS so far on this tier of content is on HM Grob'thok that ended at 1600 DPS where I tank him 50% of the time and the adds the other 50%. Of course, much of that damage is AoE.

 

I'd like to see the following:

 

  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

 

Buffing Enrage would be nice, though it would really only help with the opener, which is frankly not the most difficult part of Jugg tanking (anymore). The only real "problems" that I see with the Jugg rotation are a) the fact that you can't use Saber Throw without having your DPS hold off a GCD, and b) Revenge doesn't proc enough to keep Smash and Scream always on CD and always free.

 

All those are nice quality of life changes for players. Also, you can definitely use Saber Throw without making your DPS wait; you just can't use Force Leap in conjunction with it. I start with Saber Throw (and move to position as it's flying through the air) on at least half the fights and am able to get into range for my Smash to do the rest of my rotation.

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All those are nice quality of life changes for players. Also, you can definitely use Saber Throw without making your DPS wait; you just can't use Force Leap in conjunction with it. I start with Saber Throw (and move to position as it's flying through the air) on at least half the fights and am able to get into range for my Smash to do the rest of my rotation.

 

That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure if it's worth it though, since you may as well just leap. Saber Throw does do more damage than Force Leap, but not enormously more, and it's less risky in terms of getting in position for Smash. The only two fights I can think of where I would employ that strategy, I already am, and those would be The Dread Masters and Tyrans.

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I'd like to see the following:

 

  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

 

This would be an ideal improvement. I have been wanting a high threat modifier on Saber Throw for a long time. I love opening with it, and most of the time I can open with Saber Throw then Force Charge without losing threat. But there are definitely times that I cannot. Example: Commander Draxus.

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Food for thought: Adding a Higher thread modifier to saber throw i think is right on the money, i don't know about adding an aoe ability to it though. Considering we rely on it for rage generation, and aoe ability will only hinder juggs from using it. It would be more helpful if They took saber throw off the GCD like Retaliate, But keep the range restrictions. This will allow Juggs to use Throw and leap together using both ability's as intended.

 

I will also like to assert adding a slight DPS buff to enrage would only help the issue.

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I would like to see the talent deafening defense in the vengeance tree in the immortal tree. 4% less dmg + dmg reduction from crushing blow = perfect.

 

No more changes needed and devs wouldnt have much work you can excahnge it with the talent warmonger

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I agree 100% with your categorizations. I do think that the *optimal* Jugg rotation is harder than the Assassin rotation in terms of steady state maintenance. The Assassin rotation is much more punishing, since your mitigation drops at the very hint of imperfection and you have to think ahead quite a bit, both in terms of fight mechanics and rotation, but the rotational structure is less involved. The Smash vs Scream proc in the Jugg rotation is (I find) what makes things tricky, and generally where people mess up. Granted, it's generally not a problem if you mess that up outside the opener, since sustained threat is a non-issue due to taunt fluffing, but sub-optimal is sub-optimal.

 

 

 

I'd like to see the following:

 

  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

 

Buffing Enrage would be nice, though it would really only help with the opener, which is frankly not the most difficult part of Jugg tanking (anymore). The only real "problems" that I see with the Jugg rotation are a) the fact that you can't use Saber Throw without having your DPS hold off a GCD, and b) Revenge doesn't proc enough to keep Smash and Scream always on CD and always free.

 

All of this. Plus, how about Accuracy being added to Soresu form. I don't know about you guys, but having crushing blow and saber throw miss really sucks. Unless something has changed, and we want Accuracy in our gear now.

Edited by Dyronis
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The damage difference between Jugg tanks and every other tank is actually negligible at this point. I do more damage than pretty much any tank of any class I've ever seen and I'm a Juggernaught. I average around 1200 DPS on most fights and I only have a 72 mainhand (mostly 78, though). Damage was a real problem pre-2.0 when even at the very best, Jugg tanks would do 100 or less DPS than a similar Assassin or Powertech, but currently, that issue has been resolved.

 

The priority system and rotation for Jugg tanks is much more difficult to master than it is for any other tank class. The other tank classes just use a lot less skills and have simpler rotations overall when it comes to both single target and AoE DPS. In a single target rotation, Shadows/Assassins only use up to 7 skills while Vanguards/Powertechs use up to 9. The Juggernaught uses 14 with all classes using 1 more possible skill for extra AoE. I don't know what your rotation is like, but something is definitely off so I'd need to know what you are doing to offer suggestions.

 

As for threat generation, Juggs are a little behind, but we can use Saber Reflect for a free 8.6k threat to make up for it. This isn't ideal of course, though, as wasting a defensive cooldown just to gain some threat is not a great choice unless the boss has nothing for you to Reflect in the next minute, anyways. Enrage is the only pseudo-offensive cooldown we have and using it at the beginning does allow us to go all out in our opener without using Sundering Assault for a while. Later, it gives us the extra Rage we need for 2 Vicious Slashes, each of which does about 700 more damage than our normal auto-attack, Assault (almost double its damage). If the developers were able to give the threat boost from Saber Reflect to Enrage, that'd be a welcome boost to our initial threat generation. It would also boost our threat generation in general as we could use it every 45 seconds, which would help for future threat generation and for AoE threat.

 

 

It’s possible to get 1200 dps on jugger tank as I can do it too but to get this you need very good group of people. They will interrupt stuff, drop agro, you have good healers etc, as then you can just run rotation and you fine. But as soon as you have to intericde, interrupt use enrage defence to heal yourself, move boss, look around what your group its doing so you can react to their mistakes etc. you go down to 600-800 dps. And on my shadow in bad situations I can still pull 1200 dps. I can bet that if you will have to use any above you will not get 1200 dps. 1200dps its only achievable when you just stand and dps but then you not tanking.

I did never played powertech, I have 2 jugger tanks, one guardian tank and one shadow tank. I have been playing on my tanks since day one and jugger was always behind with dps, agro and now with 78 gear its hard on jugger.

Once you survive first 20 sec of combat agro it’s yours, but jugger its only tank class in game which have to use taunt in first few second of combat to maintain agro.

If you look at any parsec first 30 sec of combat you can see that dps generate over 1000 TPS more from jugger tank. This problem does not exist when you compare assassin or powertech.

If you take jugger and assassin or powertech to jump same boss and fight without using any taunts on jugger you will never have agro.( unless you intercede to adder tank).

So in my opinion jugger will need more dps with 81 gear, 78 we can survive. More work but we can deal with it but once 81 its out we will have problems.

 

Light saber reflect its good and if you fight stuff of which you can reflect your DPS go higher but in boss fight there are not many where you can use it, its good for mobs to hold agro and few bosses only.

If LR would reflect male attack this would bring balance.

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It’s possible to get 1200 dps on jugger tank as I can do it too but to get this you need very good group of people. They will interrupt stuff, drop agro, you have good healers etc, as then you can just run rotation and you fine. But as soon as you have to intericde, interrupt use enrage defence to heal yourself, move boss, look around what your group its doing so you can react to their mistakes etc. you go down to 600-800 dps. And on my shadow in bad situations I can still pull 1200 dps. I can bet that if you will have to use any above you will not get 1200 dps. 1200dps its only achievable when you just stand and dps but then you not tanking.

I did never played powertech, I have 2 jugger tanks, one guardian tank and one shadow tank. I have been playing on my tanks since day one and jugger was always behind with dps, agro and now with 78 gear its hard on jugger.

Once you survive first 20 sec of combat agro it’s yours, but jugger its only tank class in game which have to use taunt in first few second of combat to maintain agro.

If you look at any parsec first 30 sec of combat you can see that dps generate over 1000 TPS more from jugger tank. This problem does not exist when you compare assassin or powertech.

If you take jugger and assassin or powertech to jump same boss and fight without using any taunts on jugger you will never have agro.( unless you intercede to adder tank).

So in my opinion jugger will need more dps with 81 gear, 78 we can survive. More work but we can deal with it but once 81 its out we will have problems.

 

Light saber reflect its good and if you fight stuff of which you can reflect your DPS go higher but in boss fight there are not many where you can use it, its good for mobs to hold agro and few bosses only.

If LR would reflect male attack this would bring balance.

 

Where to begin...

 

First of all, enraged defense is NOT for Tanking.

 

Its a self castrating DPS killing aggro dropping cooldown. Its NOT for tanking.

 

Second, ALL tank classes need to taunt to hold threat. Its called taunt fluffing. If you dont do it, ANY competent dps will pull off of you. ANY.

 

also this post brought back memories of a certain JonnyMadDog -shudders-

Edited by lordbadtamaru
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Where to begin...

 

First of all, enraged defense is NOT for Tanking.

 

Its a self castrating DPS killing aggro dropping cooldown. Its NOT for tanking.

 

Second, ALL tank classes need to taunt to hold threat. Its called taunt fluffing. If you dont do it, ANY competent dps will pull off of you. ANY.

 

also this post brought back memories of a certain JonnyMadDog -shudders-

 

OMG you do not use enrage defence. Your have much to learn young one.

You see I do not have problem with holding agro and I know how to use and when to use to not lose agro and every good tank use enrage defence. But just because I have no problem with holding agro does not change the fact that jugger its behind with dps compare to udder classes.

As for taunt I don’t mind using taunt I have been using this always but on my shadow I have to use taunt less often which mean jugger have harder time in holding agro (even if I don’t use enrage defence on jugger I have to taunt more often than on shadow) .

 

Btw you should try using enrage defence its very good self-healing when your healers are struggling.

Small tip: endure pain rise my HP to 53k then enrage defence heal you for 3% of your max HP in my case 1600 every time I get hit for 10 sec on average in 10 sec I get 14-15k heal. After enrage defence taunt, backhand, crushing blow, retaliation, enrage, after this just carry on as normal. I guess if you did not use this you have no idea about more useful stuff you can use on jugger but this is not post on how to play jugger but that we are doing less DPS then adder tanks.

Go to SaV HM tank sunder without kiting just face him thru all fight if you survive this you know how to play jugger.

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I disagree about jugg tank DPS being low. When I mentioned earlier that I was doing 1200 DPS on average most fights, I wasn't exaggerating. Now that I have a 78 mainhand, that's gone up about 100-150 DPS and this applies to any fight where there aren't large amounts of downtime (like Raptus, Calphayus, Dread Council if the DPS goes too hard on Bestia, and few others). On my last HM run of DF/DP, I did over 1300 DPS on Nefra, while using Enraged Defense twice (which destroys my Rage) and this is a fight where there is nothing to Saber Reflect for extra DPS.

 

It would be interesting to find a boss that we can properly test tank DPS on since dummies aren't very useful for us. Calphayus in the Dread Council fight would be a good one since he requires heavy movement to do maximum damage and the tanks must pay attention to swaps plus avoiding other issues. The only problem is that the time before swapping is fairly short (around 45 seconds) so that leads to a number of issues. Perhaps checking DPS total in the 1st phase of the Dread Council fight in HM in general would be optimal, but non-Jugg tank classes could possibly get another player to apply the armor debuff for them. The other issue would be if your DPS push Bestia too much, which forces the tanks to do minimal damage (just keeping up buffs/debuffs) in order to prevent her from recalling to her throne early.

 

As for Enraged Defense in general, it is an useful defensive cooldown provided you are very careful in how you utilize it. I wrote a guide for it on this forum a while ago and it's tough to manage properly, but there are fights where it is great. For current content, you can use it on Nefra during the Power of the Masters DoT to help out healers, on the tanking challenge (really no reason not to use it there), and a few others in situational areas (like off-tanking Tyrans when you get the Affliction DoT) without having to worry about aggro loss at all.

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Nice to see that 78 MH increase dps so much I did kill those few times but so far no luck in winning MH. I agree that it’s hard to measure dps for tank with 72 my dps range from 600 to 1300 depend on fight but we still have less DPS then udder tanks if you get more dps then udder tanks you are simply better player, this is why I never compare my damage to udder tank I compare what I can do on my jugger and shadow. On shadow I can easy do 300 dps more than my jugger.

You see all shadow assassin players complaining on forum all the time about their class so BW keep giving them more and more. In general jugger players just deal with stuff without complaining and week people just reroll assassin, PT.

Its nice that you are happy with your damage but don’t you think it would be nice if BW give us same DPS as udder tanks have? Its not like we asking for a lot like assassins players do. Keep in mind that assassin players want their class to be improve and jugger to be nerf.

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All of the tank classes suffer with off-tanking dps penalties, but jugg dps is impacted even when main-tanking if incoming damage is F/T biased because of the defense event requirement on retaliation (making it a shield requirement would be an improvement). That's about the only dps "issue" I can think of, and in the grand scheme of things, it isn't even that big of a deal.

 

We need more range flexibility when it comes to threat generation, not more dps.

Edited by Marb
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Nice to see that 78 MH increase dps so much I did kill those few times but so far no luck in winning MH. I agree that it’s hard to measure dps for tank with 72 my dps range from 600 to 1300 depend on fight but we still have less DPS then udder tanks if you get more dps then udder tanks you are simply better player, this is why I never compare my damage to udder tank I compare what I can do on my jugger and shadow. On shadow I can easy do 300 dps more than my jugger.

You see all shadow assassin players complaining on forum all the time about their class so BW keep giving them more and more. In general jugger players just deal with stuff without complaining and week people just reroll assassin, PT.

Its nice that you are happy with your damage but don’t you think it would be nice if BW give us same DPS as udder tanks have? Its not like we asking for a lot like assassins players do. Keep in mind that assassin players want their class to be improve and jugger to be nerf.

 

From what I've seen from my Assassin co-tank and the parses on the tanking leaderboard in the tanking forums, the DPS from Assassins is really about the same (+/- 100 DPS on average). I also used to run an Assassin until HM DF/DP came out and both of those tanks did almost the same DPS on most fights with the equivalent gear. I started running a Vanguard recently who has decent gear (mostly 72 with the bunch of 78s + 72 mainhand). I was impressed to find their tank DPS was about where it should be with my lack of experience on that character and the gear level (averaged about 1000-1100 DPS).

 

Anyways, I think under optimal conditions, all the tanks are about equal now. What Bioware can do is make quality of life improvements to each class to make certain aspects of each class less frustrating. As for the Assassin complaints, yeah, I've seen that. I would say that if people do think Juggernaught DPS is low, we need to find an almost foolproof way to verify it in the similar (but hopefully more respectful) manner that the Assassin tanks did for their spikiness. Right now, I don't know of a solution, but it's something to think about.

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