More tanks are required.

[LadyKohastFel]

The situation with the class imbalance in FP queues has hit ridiculous proportions for DPS with 2 hour waits being the norm (16 hours without a pop was my record) and about 10-20 minutes for a healer. While tanks get an instant pop. (I gathered this info myself since I have a DPS, a healer and a tank character)

 

Something needs to be done to attract DPS or healer players to want to play a tank like adding more damage dealing capacity to tanks would be a good start to attract a DPS player to want to play a tank, or make the role of tank optional with some new 55 HMs so that DPS players can get their weekly done in a time-frame comparable to tanks.

 

What has prompted this is that I have noticed that several tanks are now charging 100k per DPS in a group for the 'privilege' of 'allowing' them to get their elite commendations. They usually do this by either forming their group in general fleet chat, or using the group finder then DEMANDING 100k off each DPS before they begin.

[Icebergy]

That's not the norm, my DPS alt almost never waits more than 10mins. Ridiculous exaggerations do not help your point, they detract from it. Edited November 14, 2013 by Icebergy

[GuruVII]

She/It/He might not be exaggerating or considerably less then you think.. There is more than one server and the times we play at differ.

 

As for tanks charging, I applaud their entrepreneurial spirit

[YeOldeRepublic]

Something needs to be done to attract DPS or healer players to want to play a tank

 

The near-instant queue time was reason enough for me.

Edited November 14, 2013 by YeOldeRepublic

[CrazyMcGee]

BW are already doing what they can with this, hence why new FPs are non-role specific and they went back to change that for BT and Esseles SM.

 

But they can't make people play tanks.

 

Are you in a guild? I find the best way to do flashpoints is just to ask in my guild and we form guild-only groups.

Edited November 14, 2013 by CrazyMcGee

[Lord_of_Mu]

It's really hard for the devs in a lot of games to make tanking fun. Tanking requires a lot of attention to detail and a small degree of research or reading.

 

The thing about tanking is, if you're not very good at it. People will notice, very quickly.

 

A few suggestions might be:

 

Bioware could make a series of training missions designed to teach the basics of tanking to players who want to try out tanking.

 

Companions could be given a small talent tree system and a few extra UI functions like move to X position or face Y direction. And a spell interrupt, those are handy to have.

 

In addition to companion upgrades, throw in a tick box that allows players to queue with their companion as the possible tank for FPs only. The group finder could also have a built in scan designed to check the gear on the player's tanking companion. If the companion doesn't pass the requirements, X amount of Y tanking stats. Then that companion won't be chosen to tank the run.

 

Using a companion as a tank is a lot more work than using a tanking character but I've done it several times as a healer. The only thing of note for my success at having a tanking companion is the fact that I also play a tank and think like a tank. I know the pulls and which mobs to attack first.

[Spamfritter]

That's not the norm, my DPS alt almost never waits more than 10mins. Ridiculous exaggerations do not help your point, they detract from it.

 

Maybe not on your server, but on mine DPS will wait an hour or more easily. As a tank I can get an insta-queue every time.

 

The unfortunate reality is that few people find tanking to be all that much fun. I enjoy it but few others seem to.

[-Wes-]

Ooooh.... I had never considered charging other players for said "privilege" of running a flashpoint! Oh, the possibilities....

 

As for attracting more people to the role, I think that the tank role is a perfect complement to playing a healer. They both have the exact same mission: to protect their group mates! One does this through damage mitigation while the other does it through damage prevention. I find that most of my characters are either tank or healer. The only damage characters I have are those from advance classes that have neither of the others as an option. Probably not surprising, but I don't bother playing those much since I don't find them nearly as engaging as the healers and tanks.

 

I'm not sure it's even possible to attract many of the personality types that prefer the damage role to play the others simply because many of them are, for lack of a better term, glory mongers: They want to feel like they are having the most impact by dropping the enemies with this critical, or that sustained DPS, etc. It takes a little more humility to willingly play a support role that lacks the outward display of superiority.

 

The truth is, though, that neither damage, tanks, nor healers could do without the others. It takes the combined versatility of a well-matched and cooperative group to perform well. The hot-shot DPS that likes to pull the mobs might be able to dish out a ton of damage, but if they take the full aggro of the initial mob's opening burst, there is a good chance they won't survive it without a healer who's up for the task of babysitting. When I'm in a group like this as tank or healer, I try to keep them alive the first two times it happens, then I say something, then I give them a second chance.... then I just let them die. Often, after a death or two, they self-moderate and play with us. It takes the team to win, not a hotshot with his (perceived) groupies.

 

But, back to the concern:

 

I don't think this issue is the developer's fault. Player choice will dictate what advanced class and role is chosen, and much of this is driven by personality. I get long queue times even as a tank or a healer. I will say that my most frequent insta-pop queues are as tank, for sure, but those are maybe a quarter of the time. Most of the time it will pop within fifteen minutes for either tank or healer, and there are times when it has not popped by the time I am ready to log out (usually one or two hours later).

 

Now I know, though, why the most frequent no-shows (e.g., didn't click "ready") are the damage players! They probably fell asleep at the keyboard! LOL

Edited November 14, 2013 by -Wes-

[disxion]

I think the other thing that inflates DPS population is that they are faster to solo content with and many people roll alts and level characters solo.

[DKNS]

I think the other thing that inflates DPS population is that they are faster to solo content with and many people roll alts and level characters solo.

 

Keeping a DPS companion and keeping them properly geared will make clearing solo content just as fast.

Edited November 14, 2013 by DKNS

[Cernow]

There's a basic problem with tanking in SWTOR which is shared in common with many other MMOs - for a lot of players tanking simply is not much fun. Just some of the reasons why this might be:

 

* Responsibility. Tanks carry the extra responsibility of needing to know the fights and lead from the front. If things go wrong, often the tank gets the blame, even when it's not really their fault.

 

* Steep learning curve - many boss fights can be complex and unforgiving of mistakes. Inexperience shows for tanks. If you are new to a FP or encounter, as a dps or healer you can often wing it to a certain extent. As a tank much less so.

 

* Crowd control. There's WAY too much crowd control in the game when you're a tank you eat it all. Being punted around like a pinball and losing control of your character for significant periods of time isn't much fun, especially when your role is to try and control the fight.

 

* Far too much attention to detail needed - position the boss here, face him there, move the boss to X when event Y happens, don't stand in this, do stand in that, interupt this but not that, pick up these adds when they spawn, but not those. etc etc.

 

Now, some players thrive on all the above. But too many don't, hence the shortage of tanks.

 

The solution? More role neutral FPs (the CZ-198 normal mode FPs are great examples of this). More operations where if they can't be entirely role neutral at least some of the emphasis should be taken off the tank(s). Less crowd control in general - don't use crowd control to artificially make things more difficult, find better ways to challenge the players (all the players, not just the tanks).

Edited November 14, 2013 by Cernow

[Nickious]

That's not the norm, my DPS alt almost never waits more than 10mins. Ridiculous exaggerations do not help your point, they detract from it.

 

It really does depend on the server. I've waited along time as DPS on my server of Begeren Colony. Its one of the reason why I tend to go to AC that have dual roles as a tank or healer.

[Fidelicatessen]

It really does depend on the server. I've waited along time as DPS on my server of Begeren Colony. Its one of the reason why I tend to go to AC that have dual roles as a tank or healer.

 

^^What this guy said.

 

Bergeren Colony 55HM FP DPS queue time is generally 2+ hours. It can be shorter than that, but it can also be longer. Of course, I tend to play at Australian/APAC prime time. At that same time, however, it's insta-pop for my tanking toons and 20-30 minutes for my healers, on average.

 

There's not a lot Bioware can do to mitigate this, besides the obvious role-neutral FPs. Those are way way easy though, which they have to be if they're role-neutral, and I generally prefer the more challenging stuff that actually requires a tank and healer.

[gorstram]

I think the biggest issue for tanks and healers are that DPS are so overzealous when they finally get into an instance. I don't know how many marauders/sentinels I've run with that just go full retard with pulls. They leap ahead of the tank, they saber throw CC'd mobs, then they ***** in /group when they die. Snipers are constantly pulling ahead of the tank so as not to lose their free Snipe. Being a tank in a PuG in this game is exhausting. They should be dispensing Xanax to you people. I think that's the biggest reason you don't see more tanks in GF. Too many of you DPS are just retarded. It's easier to just pull together a group of trusted people and run it that way, than have to slip a disk trying to carry a bunch of pent up bads.

[Apache]

part of the reson that there is so much of a gap is that it is just much easier to play solo as a dps. My merc crushes through dailies quickly and easily for fast comms. where as my PT Tank sludges through them.

 

In a FP all the DPS has to do is hit/shoot the mob until it dies. But my tank has to lead the group. has to know the fights. has to be properly geared for the FP. And if anything goes wrong, its My fault. Or the healers. You hardly ever see dps get blamed for a bad run. Kind of a lot of responsibility that most players don't want.

 

Plus it doesn't help that Biowares idea of 'Challenging' is to overwhelm the tank with CC's. Keep the tank chain stunned for the first 5 seconds of the fight with only one stun breaker. Or to punt the Tank all over the map. Out of Heals range and create line of sight issues for everyone. Lots headache for a tank in those and no fun at all.

 

There also the option of being able to switch AC roles from DPS to Tank or Heals. But that can also be a hassle. Unless you have field respect, you have to go make your way to fleet. Find a Skill Mentor. Reassign all of your points. And carry around two sets of gear.

 

So ya, its far easier being dps. Sure the waits are longer for FP's, but so what? I can blow through dailes and get Basic comms to buy Basic gear faster than running FP's and hoping for drops that are Basic Gear anyway. And when I Do get into a FP, I just follow the tank and shoot stuff while the healer keeps me alive.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Apache

[Jeweledleah]

I think the biggest issue for tanks and healers are that DPS are so overzealous when they finally get into an instance. I don't know how many marauders/sentinels I've run with that just go full retard with pulls. They leap ahead of the tank, they saber throw CC'd mobs, then they ***** in /group when they die. Snipers are constantly pulling ahead of the tank so as not to lose their free Snipe. Being a tank in a PuG in this game is exhausting. They should be dispensing Xanax to you people. I think that's the biggest reason you don't see more tanks in GF. Too many of you DPS are just retarded. It's easier to just pull together a group of trusted people and run it that way, than have to slip a disk trying to carry a bunch of pent up bads.

 

^^this

 

edited to add. i actualy prefer to level/solo/do dailies as a tank. I tried as dps and I just feel too squishy and have to stop too often to heal up, even with healing companion. it doesn't feel faster.

 

I just... don't have patience to deal with people who do everything they can to make my role as difficult as possible. so I only tank for guildies/friends/while leveling (becasue I tend to overgear leveling flashpoints and other people, which makes it easier to compensate for the rest of the group)

Edited November 14, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Vis-Tecum]

respect your tanks and they will queue

[Mystry]

Main spec tank here. I have tanked, at max level, on both a guardian and a shadow.

 

As a tank, you have far more responsibility than other group members. You are the one who must lead the group through the flashpoint or operation, you are the one who must know fights like the back of your hand, you are the one who must train people who don't know them, you are the one who must come up with a strategy to beat an ops boss, assuming you don't just read from dulfy. You have to be aware of the position and aggro of every mob, particularly as a guardian who has poor aoe threat generation, you have to babysit DPS so they don't do anything stupid or die. You have to decide and mark and explain CC targets.

 

In short, there are no tanks because we have far more to do than the other two roles, and no one wants to shoulder the aggravation of it, excepting people like me who like the extra skill and attention to detail that is required.

 

I'm not saying make tanking easier, though I would like it if Shadows got some quality of life buffs, but there is a huge gap in skill requirements from tanks and DPS/Healers.

 

As for charging money for run throughs, why the hell didn't I think of that? Off to see if it works.

[blackcerberus]

in the meantime BW nerfs tankasins, forcing more sins to reroll dps

as usual, the playerbase goes in one direction and BW the opposite

[slafko]

As for attracting more people to the role, I think that the tank role is a perfect complement to playing a healer. They both have the exact same mission: to protect their group mates! One does this through damage mitigation while the other does it through damage prevention.

May I inquire which one mitigates and which one prevents? I'm asking only because I cannot recognise the healer's role in your statement. The healer neither mitigates nor prevents damage. He just pushes heals back to top which is reacting to the damage taken. There's virtually no proactive skills available and instead of actively doing something about lowering the damage people receive, the healers have been reduced to chimps bashing buttons and pushing red bars.

 

 

As far as this topic goes, it made me chuckle when I remembered all the flak I've received after stating that the dps is the least important and the easiest role to play. Those "Flashpoints and Operations" sub-forum goers really do love their big numbers. Pew, pew. Derp, derp.

Edited November 14, 2013 by slafko

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

By now I have high leveled DPS, Healer, and Tank so I can compare my gaming experience with a certain amount of objectivity.

 

Why I like DPS best, like it appear with so many players. It has much to do with a perceptual weakness in the game, you get exp by defeating creatures. It has been for me, and I see it with many players when I play, that leveling tends to be a "solo" kind of thing and then armoring becomes, be necessity, a group kind of thing. Because the only real way to gain levels is by killing mobs, DPS tend to be very good at it, and thus rewarding to an extent.

 

Healing, you give up a lot in DPS and Armor to be a Healer when compared to the other 2 occupational choices. But on the other hand the Healer class is logically a team or group oriented class. At first when I level one up, I go the DPS route tree, and once 55 is achieved I re-spec into healer. Healers are the backbone of a group in missions and are at large greatly unthanked, under appreciated and blamed for failure; this why not many play healers. Also with the game easily throwing aggroe at healers, and with little to no damage mitiagtion is rather hazardous occupation. Some MMORPGs actually give the healer exp of bonuses each time they heal as a means to reward the occupation, perhaps healers could destiny points awarded for healing others...

 

Tanking, this is a gutsy class, no question about that. You go and take on everybody and pray the healer keeps you alive long enough till the DPS kills the beasts you aggravated. I find tanking very diffcult, for my taunts are compared to other games rather weak and aggroe is easily stolen from me. My repertoir of taunts is rather poor, one strong ranged one, a mediocre short range aoe, and few other very weak AOEs. I also noticed I only have 1 good interrupt while other occupations have 2. So you playing a suicidal occupation with not quite enough tools to do the job reliable and consistently. I would like to see tanks AOE's taunts be much stronger and at least one have a long range area of effect, instead of the 1 ranged taunt one mob. I would like to see the cool down of the one ranged strong taunt be halved, and at least one more interrupt ability be added to the tank, perhaps the ranged taunt can be an interrupt and a good excuse why the mob is so mad at you...

 

The reason not many play tanks, in my opinion, is that in groups is that tanks are very dependent on the team, more so than the other occupations, and they are usually the first to die, since the healer may have been distracted (afk, gathering loot, dps), adds went after the healer and the dps did nothing about it, dps killing to slowly that healer just can't keep up with tank heals, and so one

 

Sue.

[Aeowyn]

I think the biggest issue for tanks and healers are that DPS are so overzealous when they finally get into an instance. I don't know how many marauders/sentinels I've run with that just go full retard with pulls. They leap ahead of the tank, they saber throw CC'd mobs, then they ***** in /group when they die. Snipers are constantly pulling ahead of the tank so as not to lose their free Snipe. Being a tank in a PuG in this game is exhausting. They should be dispensing Xanax to you people. I think that's the biggest reason you don't see more tanks in GF. Too many of you DPS are just retarded. It's easier to just pull together a group of trusted people and run it that way, than have to slip a disk trying to carry a bunch of pent up bads.

 

I have to agree with this. I have a tank, healer and DPS and my tank is the only one that I very rarely pug with. You get abuse if you're "too slow", you get abuse if the DPS decides to pull everything when they're ahead of you and then they die. I've worked hard to make sure to learn all the tactics and getting my tank well-geared, so I frankly don't feel that I deserve the abuse coming from overzealous DPS. Nowadays I mostly tank with guildies.

[gorstram]

Tanking, this is a gutsy class, no question about that. You go and take on everybody and pray the healer keeps you alive long enough till the DPS kills the beasts you aggravated. I find tanking very diffcult, for my taunts are compared to other games rather weak and aggroe is easily stolen from me. My repertoir of taunts is rather poor, one strong ranged one, a mediocre short range aoe, and few other very weak AOEs. I also noticed I only have 1 good interrupt while other occupations have 2. So you playing a suicidal occupation with not quite enough tools to do the job reliable and consistently. I would like to see tanks AOE's taunts be much stronger and at least one have a long range area of effect, instead of the 1 ranged taunt one mob. I would like to see the cool down of the one ranged strong taunt be halved, and at least one more interrupt ability be added to the tank, perhaps the ranged taunt can be an interrupt and a good excuse why the mob is so mad at you....

 

Ya, it's pretty frustrating. I have been suggesting in posts that BW rework the threat mechanic for tanks. Taunt is supposed to be an "Oh S*&t" ability, not something that needs to be worked into a standard AoE mob pull. I play a VG tank. and in pulls where there are no immediate knock backs (Hammer Station droids), there is no reason that a mobs should peel off of me after my charge, two explosive surges and a proc'd pulse cannon.

 

As it sits right now, in an Operation, tanks have to swap AoE taunts to make sure that a giant pack of mobs don't go tearing off after DPS during a standard AoE pull. There's just no reason for that.

[illgot]

That's not the norm, my DPS alt almost never waits more than 10mins. Ridiculous exaggerations do not help your point, they detract from it.

 

That may be the norm on their server and time of play.

 

You have to try and stop thinking everything is the same across all servers.

 

Dual spec would help with this. Allow players to switch loadouts (skill tree/hotbars/equipment) with the click of one button instantly.

 

Cross server queues would help with this.

 

Is EA looking at either? This will probably never happen so just get used to the long queue or wait for a new game to come out.

[Mazikeen]

The role of tanking is not why there's a shortage, it's the community. Tanks are out there, but most won't run a PuG.

 

When DPS stop thinking that they bear no responsibility for their own aggro, when players let the TANK lead the group and pull, and when people start treating each other like human beings instead of personal slaves then you may see more tanks willing to run a PuG. People have stopped treating MMOs like games and now treat them like jobs... dungeons are now a 'quick and dirty' thing instead of a 'let's go have fun' thing.

 

I even saw (and replied to) a thread where someone was complaining that a FP took 20 minutes to clear. Whether they were trolling or not, I don't know, but the truth is some think that IS a long time. I don't really expect role-less FPs to do much better either because it'll end up amounting to letting 4 kids on sugar highs loose in a toy store. Eventually someone is going to get hurt.