Operatives and Snipers need to be nerfed, here's why.

[Malastare]

I have a Level 55 Sentinel and I know exactly the pain that you're feeling. On the way up to 55, I learned that attacking a Sniper was a lot like stabbing myself in the leg: Something to be avoided if at all possible. Unless I could get next to them before starting, my best strategy was to simply run away. The combination of pushes and stuns would eat so much HP, that I'd be pretty much doomed. I have the same issue with Operatives. They appear out of nowhere, and stack on a chain of stuns and roots. I could kill them eventually (I knew enough to not burn a stun breaker on Debilitate and wait for them to toss the flashbang), but it usually required some help from Rebuke. In the mean time, I would have to ignore whatever I'd been doing before.

 

Of course, I also have a Level 55 Sniper. I learned that I have a toolkit designed for murdering Sentinels. But Commandos? Sages? You can't push someone 25m away. No point in rooting them, when they are happy to stand and hit me from distance. And Shadows can pull me out of cover without me even knowing they're there, or at least force me to burn a pulse, which is my best defense against Sentinels and Guardians. Speaking of that, while Sentinels are easy to deal with, Guardians aren't. They just pop a few defensive abilities and outlast my stuns and pushes.

 

I also have a Level 55 Operative. I hunt Sentinels, but only when I have support. I know I have a bunch of weak CC, and I use them to distract major DPS players (and Sentinels are at the top of that list). Trying to solo a Sentinel at the same level is a tough prospect, and it usually requires disappearing to try to recover a little energy and fire the opening sequence again. It's powerful... until someone with any defensive ability shows up. Vanguards are rough and not to be tried alone. If anyone with range attacks me when I'm unstealthed, they can burn me down enough while I run to them that all my CC won't do much. They'll just break my flashbang and a couple seconds of stun when I finally get there won't do much to change the outcome. Sages are still pretty vulnerable (because of all the channeling), but that's hardly encouraging.

 

The point here is that the OP is playing one of the most fearsome DPS classes in PvP. He routinely does loads of damage, and is able to duel most opposing classes, including classes with more armor and defensive abilities. He has numerous advantages over many other ACs, but the moment he runs up against a class that has some advantages over him, he wants them removed.

 

This is what happens when you focus on one class too much. You lose perspective, take your advantages for granted, and start thinking that any disadvantages you have are things that need to be fixed. Snipers are designed to do well against Sentinels. The OP should learn to have a bit more tactical awareness and avoid dueling situations with Snipers. Having support from just one player of pretty much any class would turn that around. Operatives are different. He shouldn't be getting routinely killed by them, but the CC is still annoying. He just needs to recognize the CC type and ignore the short CC. If you pop Rebuke the moment they engage, you'll get an easy defensive boost that will do some moderate damage, even while you're stunned.

 

And in particular: The Operative capped that pylon because they tricked you into responding poorly. First, you and the sage should not have been so close. If they opened with Debilitate, you shouldn't have broken it at all, and just waited it out. If you're alone and they open with their stun dart, things can get tricky, as they can force you to burn a stun break, then still hit you with the flashbang. The goal is to force them to waste time after tossing it and before they get to the pylon. You and the Sage shouldn't have been close enough to be hit by the same flashbang. The sage should have been 30m from the Pylon, ensuring that one of the two of you would be able to outlast the stun and hit the Op with damage to stop the cap.

 

It was smart play by the Operative, and they are doing exactly what they are designed for. You made some mistakes, but nothing shameful. You just have to come to grips with the fact that you don't get to be the best at everything.

[PoliteAssasin]

I have a Level 55 Sentinel and I know exactly the pain that you're feeling. On the way up to 55, I learned that attacking a Sniper was a lot like stabbing myself in the leg: Something to be avoided if at all possible. Unless I could get next to them before starting, my best strategy was to simply run away. The combination of pushes and stuns would eat so much HP, that I'd be pretty much doomed. I have the same issue with Operatives. They appear out of nowhere, and stack on a chain of stuns and roots. I could kill them eventually (I knew enough to not burn a stun breaker on Debilitate and wait for them to toss the flashbang), but it usually required some help from Rebuke. In the mean time, I would have to ignore whatever I'd been doing before.

 

Of course, I also have a Level 55 Sniper. I learned that I have a toolkit designed for murdering Sentinels. But Commandos? Sages? You can't push someone 25m away. No point in rooting them, when they are happy to stand and hit me from distance. And Shadows can pull me out of cover without me even knowing they're there, or at least force me to burn a pulse, which is my best defense against Sentinels and Guardians. Speaking of that, while Sentinels are easy to deal with, Guardians aren't. They just pop a few defensive abilities and outlast my stuns and pushes.

 

I also have a Level 55 Operative. I hunt Sentinels, but only when I have support. I know I have a bunch of weak CC, and I use them to distract major DPS players (and Sentinels are at the top of that list). Trying to solo a Sentinel at the same level is a tough prospect, and it usually requires disappearing to try to recover a little energy and fire the opening sequence again. It's powerful... until someone with any defensive ability shows up. Vanguards are rough and not to be tried alone. If anyone with range attacks me when I'm unstealthed, they can burn me down enough while I run to them that all my CC won't do much. They'll just break my flashbang and a couple seconds of stun when I finally get there won't do much to change the outcome. Sages are still pretty vulnerable (because of all the channeling), but that's hardly encouraging.

 

The point here is that the OP is playing one of the most fearsome DPS classes in PvP. He routinely does loads of damage, and is able to duel most opposing classes, including classes with more armor and defensive abilities. He has numerous advantages over many other ACs, but the moment he runs up against a class that has some advantages over him, he wants them removed.

 

This is what happens when you focus on one class too much. You lose perspective, take your advantages for granted, and start thinking that any disadvantages you have are things that need to be fixed. Snipers are designed to do well against Sentinels. The OP should learn to have a bit more tactical awareness and avoid dueling situations with Snipers. Having support from just one player of pretty much any class would turn that around. Operatives are different. He shouldn't be getting routinely killed by them, but the CC is still annoying. He just needs to recognize the CC type and ignore the short CC. If you pop Rebuke the moment they engage, you'll get an easy defensive boost that will do some moderate damage, even while you're stunned.

 

And in particular: The Operative capped that pylon because they tricked you into responding poorly. First, you and the sage should not have been so close. If they opened with Debilitate, you shouldn't have broken it at all, and just waited it out. If you're alone and they open with their stun dart, things can get tricky, as they can force you to burn a stun break, then still hit you with the flashbang. The goal is to force them to waste time after tossing it and before they get to the pylon. You and the Sage shouldn't have been close enough to be hit by the same flashbang. The sage should have been 30m from the Pylon, ensuring that one of the two of you would be able to outlast the stun and hit the Op with damage to stop the cap.

 

It was smart play by the Operative, and they are doing exactly what they are designed for. You made some mistakes, but nothing shameful. You just have to come to grips with the fact that you don't get to be the best at everything.

 

On the contrary, we counter snipers very well. We have multiple ways of dealing with them, camo, pacify, our other defensive cooldowns, and certain spec specific offensives. In warzones most snipers feel like they're superior because they can get the jump on a target that isn't aware of them and is generally already in a fight. But 1 vs 1, or if you happen to be alone with them in a warzone, the sniper will not survive. (If its a competent sentinel or marauder that is. Too many fotm bads give the impression that the class is weak when in fact we can chew up snipers and spit em out.)

[mattycutts]

1st thing, u shocked u got stunned twice and died? lol most classes have two stuns at there disposal so by that any class could have done that to you.

 

2nd thing, if u cant kill a sniper then u need to either log out and uninstall game or ask a sniper for tips or role one and find their weaknesses which they have plenty.

 

left alone a sniper will rip u limb to limb. sniper focused is a dead man in few seconds.

 

Snipers are one of the most balenced classes there is, basic definition we are a glass cannon, great dps but die quick also.

[Malastare]

On the contrary, we counter snipers very well. We have multiple ways of dealing with them, camo, pacify, our other defensive cooldowns, and certain spec specific offensives.

 

Looking back over my comments, I can see the statements were a bit more drastic than I intended. Its not like Sentinel vs. Sniper is certain death for the Sentinel. I kill my share of Snipers. However, a good sniper (ie: one who knows their skills, is aware of me, and is set up in an advantageous position) will beat an equally skilled Sentinel far more than 50% of the time. In the cases where they don't, the Sentinel is usually virtually dead anyway, as Sentinel/Sniper fights draw attention and someone else is usually happy to finish the Sentinel off.

 

Yes, the best thing a Sentinel can do to fight a Sniper is to run in under cammo. However, the Sniper has skills that are quite literally designed to defend against the Knights most useful abilities. Sentinels have Pacify, Snipers have Diversion. A good Sniper will spot a Sentinel using Pacify, toss out Diversion or Debilitate/Flashbang and reset. Again, its not like you should just give up. It takes work for the Sniper to win, but Snipers were indeed designed to counter Knights, and Sentinels have less tricks to deal with Snipers than Guardians do.

 

In warzones most snipers feel like they're superior because they can get the jump on a target that isn't aware of them and is generally already in a fight. But 1 vs 1, or if you happen to be alone with them in a warzone, the sniper will not survive. (If its a competent sentinel or marauder that is.

 

I was only addressing Warzones, because the OP was only talking about warzones. In open world, the situation changes because many of the Sentinels deficiencies are offset by a complimentary companion. For snipers the best companions are usually tanks, which don't help at all in Open World PvP. I'll readily agree that in Open World PvP, snipers usually don't have much luck against a competent Sentinel.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Malastare

[Savej]

There's way too much cc in his game in general. But it's not just a smuggler problem. If I was fixing it I would start by making aoe mez effects (awe/flashbang), force stasis and the various saps pve-only. I don't know anyone that seriously thinks cc isn't off the rails and it's the #1 or #2 reason I'm hoping one of the new games turns out to be decent. Heck I'm even looking at GW2 again at this point.

[chereago]

Bring Operative back to its pre backstab/shiv nerf then see the difference in the class your saying should be nerfed even more. yo wouldve probably been one of those laying constantly dead. If your fixating on agent needing to be nerfed, play the game from an Agents perspective, bet ya won't be able to put with it's squishy.

[NogueiraA]

OP, this is why marauders has more defensive cooldowns than the other classes... To survive through zillions stuns.

But wait, Snipers has MORE dcd's than marauders PLUS a 4sec stun?

 

Seriously, people should look at snipers, way unbalanced comapared to sorc/sage and merc/mando.

[Ottoattack]

Yeah I know, sorry Slingers and Scoundrels. But guys come on... This class is so OP. Okay, I play as a Sentinel right now. And the amount of stuns this class has insane. So myself and another guy were playing Hypergate, this Operative stuns me once, okay, cool I can deal with that. So I pop resolute. Then he throws down a flashbang or whatever the F it is. Stuns both the Sage and I that were guarding the pylon, and is able to cap it while we're still stunned... That is crazy.

 

Then the same match, I was running away from the pylon because it was about to reset, this jerk stuns me once, I pop resolute, and he stuns me again right after... There was nothing I could do and the pylon killed me.. Like what BS is that? What? He just gets a free cheap kill? How unfair.

 

And Snipers... Oh don't even get me started with them. Okay so basic, you run up to them (Save the force leap for later because they'll knock you back) They knock you back, as expected. Can't move for like 6 seconds, by that point they've shot me once and 1/3 of my health is gone, okay cool. Then I force leap them. They stun me for like another 6 seconds. So I pop resolute. And he slows my movement speed down again and it takes me another 5 seconds to reach him by walking. And by that point I'm already dead... And that is how EVERY battle goes with them. And they can be immune to all stuns and interrupts for 20 seconds.. Like come on..

 

Like come on guys.. this is so unfair, please tell me at least someone agrees with me :C This is pissing me off.

Oh and please don't just say I'm bad at PvP, I'm fairly good. Got a 55 Vanguard with 54 Valor..

 

The only thing OP about operatives in PvP is healing, otherwise they suck. Ya they have a whole bunch of CCs, but the deal no damage, especially, outside of solo situations.

 

Sniper are anti melee class. If you are sentinel you are not supposed to win (maybe as combat sentinel. focus or watchman forget it) and sentinels have too many DCDs to mitgate damage, so if you have a competent healer snipers should not be a problem and should not be atking you to begin with. On Vanguard, on the other hand, tactics vanguard should be able to kill sniper solo and hold the line makes you immune to roots for 10 (6) secs on 30 sec CD. I can't give you any credit here.

 

I do not want to sound mean, but you have a lot to learn young one. 2 toons with highest 54 valor is not exactly "experienced player."

[branmakmuffin]

Sounds like Corsiero got it right. If Snipers and Operatives didn't have those abilities, marauders would tear through them without even blinking.

Probably what the OP has in mind. OP wants to be the one playing an op class.

[Joesixxpack]

Yeah I know, sorry Slingers and Scoundrels. But guys come on... This class is so OP. Okay, I play as a Sentinel right now.

 

Suggestions: Get to 55, and get good. Also roll an op and sniper and learn how they do what they do. Also see how it is facing skilled sents. I doubt your opinions will remain as they are now.

[PhilD]

They knock you back, as expected. Can't move for like 6 seconds, by that point they've shot me once and 1/3 of my health is gone, okay cool.

 

Direct damage after the first two seconds of the knockback root breaks it JFTR.

[Vandicus]

My experience has been that snipers are the hard counter to marauders/sentinels. Not so much against other classes, though I love their dps.

 

 

Now as for operatives, the one thing I'm most annoyed about(besides the virtual impossibility of getting the jump on one in stealth) is the mezzes. Say you do have your cc breaker. Well that's 8 seconds minimum of cc. If you don't have a cc breaker, that's 16 seconds minimum cc. Just feels frustrating to be cc'd that long.

[Andryah]

This sounds like one long whine because he can't kill a specific class.

 

True.. and a classic whine fest in MMO forums too.

 

Classics never go out of style I guess.

[Tamanous]

Others have pointed out how the OP needs to learn to play so no need to go into that.

 

My actual issue is the subject line and why so many people continue to sound like idiots by ending their subject line with "here's why".

 

The subject line is the SUBJECT of the body of the post to follow. This goes without saying.

 

If you want to be taken seriously ... do not start by looking like an idiot.

[Andryah]

Now as for operatives, the one thing I'm most annoyed about(besides the virtual impossibility of getting the jump on one in stealth) is the mezzes. Say you do have your cc breaker. Well that's 8 seconds minimum of cc. If you don't have a cc breaker, that's 16 seconds minimum cc. Just feels frustrating to be cc'd that long.

 

This is because they are the proctologist archetype of the classes. Every game has at least one class that is this archetype. And you know you want to be sedated when they go to work on you.

[AlexDougherty]

Sounds like Corsiero got it right. If Snipers and Operatives didn't have those abilities, marauders would tear through them without even blinking.

 

Yep, the initial blitz from a marauder would dice them nicely.

[MasonMc]

You are basing your whine around <30 performance, if you seriously suggest classes endgame performance should be adjusted purely because you get pawned in lowbie pvp please just shut up, that's stupid.

 

Sniper's cover ability is inherently quite strong from level 10 on, while marauders get a whole toolbox to deal with them later, like the mentioned camouflage, undying rage and obfuscate. While you get all those awesome tools, snipers get... nothing. The only perceivable problem here would be that marauders get to shine comparatively late, but seeing how they decided to give all classes their abilities at a roughly same pace there is no way around that really.

 

Okay now you're just being stupid. Snipers don't get nothing, they have a lot of abilities Plenty to deal with most any class. I had problems with Snipers with my Vanguard too.. Tactics spec

[Vandicus]

Okay now you're just being stupid. Snipers don't get nothing, they have a lot of abilities Plenty to deal with most any class. I had problems with Snipers with my Vanguard too.. Tactics spec

 

It sounds like you were having trouble against Marksman specc'd snipers from your description of how they played. That shouldn't be too difficult for vanguards to deal with. You've got an ability that neutralizes their root and slow, and once you've closed with a sniper they have an awful lot of difficulty fighting in that spec(seeing as its mostly channels which suffer from pushback). Also, even though Vanguards are a "melee" class, they do have a number of instant 30m ranged abilities that keep them from losing too badly in the dps contest while closing.

[MasonMc]

1st thing, u shocked u got stunned twice and died? lol most classes have two stuns at there disposal so by that any class could have done that to you.

 

2nd thing, if u cant kill a sniper then u need to either log out and uninstall game or ask a sniper for tips or role one and find their weaknesses which they have plenty.

 

left alone a sniper will rip u limb to limb. sniper focused is a dead man in few seconds.

 

Snipers are one of the most balenced classes there is, basic definition we are a glass cannon, great dps but die quick also.

 

First thing you said. Okay, what happened was I was running from the pylon. This Operative, while he's still invisible, stuns me once, I pop my stun breaker, and he stuns me again while he's still invisible. That just seems OP and should be balanced.

 

And it's not that I can't kill one, because I usually can. Most people just think I'm calling out nerfs because it's the "one class I can't beat" No, that isn't it. I'm just saying, against all the other classes. The Sniper is special, certain ways to engage them, certain ways to fight them. With just about every class there is no strategy to beat them, just use your interrupt and just kill them. But if you're melee and up against a Sniper they are just slowing your movement speed for far away, stunning you and knocking you back while you get close, then slowing your movement speed again. It just seems unfair.

[captpickles]

Then he throws down a flashbang or whatever the F it is. Stuns both the Sage and I that were guarding the pylon, and is able to cap it while we're still stunned... That is crazy.

 

um doesn't that take 8 seconds to capture ? the stun only lasts 4 seconds... just sayin'

 

edit yup .. 8 seconds.

 

ok as a OP myself. don't blow your cooldown on the debilitate... save it for flashbang.

Edited November 1, 2013 by captpickles

[MasonMc]

um doesn't that take 8 seconds to capture ? the stun only lasts 4 seconds... just sayin'

 

It only takes 5 second to cap, and I believe the stun lasted 8 seconds.

[captpickles]

8 seconds it is! huh ... Edited November 1, 2013 by captpickles

[Vandicus]

um doesn't that take 8 seconds to capture ? the stun only lasts 4 seconds... just sayin'

 

Flashbang lasts 6, and the ancient hypergates pylons take only 5 seconds to capture IIRC. However, he and his fellow node guarder simply screwed up.

 

*EDIT

 

Mez/sap lasts 8, and can be used as many times as they want, but it can only be used on one player at a time.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Vandicus

[captpickles]

OP: ok as a OP myself. don't blow your cooldown on the debilitate... save it for flashbang. debil is only 4 seconds..

[captpickles]

Flashbang lasts 6, and the ancient hypergates pylons take only 5 seconds to capture IIRC. However, he and his fellow node guarder simply screwed up.

 

*EDIT

 

Mez/sap lasts 8, and can be used as many times as they want, but it can only be used on one player at a time.

 

it's 8 according to tor... have to log and look at my toon to be 100%

Edited November 1, 2013 by captpickles