Sorcerer Changes Brainstorming

[tekhiun]

No need to speak him. I think he is trolling u. I never saw him in wz's on TofN. xD Botanic theoretic from CZ-198

 

I am beginning to come to that conclusion

[THoK-Zeus]

I think i missed that link cause there is no boss where a sage or sorc does top dps on torparse.com =) I wont bother to link cause im posting from my phone now, but look at 8m HM DP on torparse.com ( i judge you can find that for yourself) , if I am not mistaken thats one of the bosses where there are no sages or sorcs.

 

Anyway I agree that they need to improve resource regen for seer pvp. TK on the other hand its fine (for pvp) . Its harder to play but as you said you can easily top dps with it. Maybe it could have increased survival skills like improved incoming heals , a self spammable bubble ( ofc locking the rate which the mezz can happen ) or even making damage dealing abilities having a chance to heal you or increase damage reduction but I am afraid that this sort of skill set should come with a decrease in dps, which is what sorcs definitely DONT need.

 

Well actually Handcuff (sage) is top dps for Operator 9 in 16 man hm (As dread fortress and Palace are still bugged on torparse, i wouldn't count them).

 

All together for the 12 bosses in sv/tfb (both 8 and 16 man) we have (as top dps on torparse without counting parses with dieing):

17 snipers/slingers

4 maras/sentinels

1 Sorc/Sage

1 Powertech/Vanguard

1 Operative/Scoundrel

 

What does your comparision of the dps classes tell us then: Sorcs are the 3rd best dps class (together with Powertech and Operative).

Edited November 5, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[AdrianDmitruk]

I agree with you. It was that someone suggested as a solution to pushback that while bubble there should be no pushback, in which I told him that this is already in place. The guy above jumped in that this is a lie, obviously also not aware that while bubbled there is no pushback.

 

To be fair if we're getting pushback in PVP the static bubble wouldn't last more than a single global anyway, and the tooltip does NOT say anything about providing pushback protection. I just logged in and double-checked that. The only practical case when we don't have our bubble instapopping is when we're in the background not attracting attention at all, in which case we're not getting pushback. So it's really hard to notice unless you're specifically testing for it (and I did shut up rather quickly, yes)?

 

Now needing viable CC after some derp melee breaks your stun without consequence and finding whirlwind a 3.5 second cast because some RDPS is also focusing you while you sprint away from said melee, and said melee is able to obliterate back to you and smash you because the cast time of that CC is effectively doubled, is quite the visceral experience. And if we're under fire at all static barrier simply doesn't last the global it takes to use it, rendering its use for pushback protection ineffective. I can't see how you can argue with that. SB hasn't scaled properly with stat increases since launch at all. At launch it used to be godly, now it's barely noticeable.

 

Even so, I would have dealt with pushback more directly--crushing darkness and whirlwind both need direct pushback protection in the second tier. Even better, the blatant Reserves skill tax needs to be replaced with insta WW where all sorcs can get it (bake the extra 100 force into the AC, taking the talent is mandatory no matter what spec you run so it's a skill tax that must be eliminated with extreme predjudice and incinerated in the middle of the nearest star). Putting it in lightning also keeps it out of the hands of sins, which is a good thing because insta WW was also taken away from us because it was too powerful for sins that also had even more CC on top of that. Thus avoiding the mistake you seem to believe I would have made.

Edited November 5, 2013 by AdrianDmitruk

[warstory]

Just putting it out there it changed when dots stopped affecting force armor. A few patches back

[warstory]

Another thing I seen a lot of people complaining in another thread that the changes to madness/balance dots is a nerf to sorc/sage because of the change to force armor and dots not affecting us while it is up we have a passive defense to dots with force armor.

[MusicRider]

No need to speak him. I think he is trolling u. I never saw him in wz's on TofN. xD Botanic theoretic from CZ-198

 

ROFL. Same goes for you. Might want to check one of dramas few losses and to which team and people that was.

[warstory]

But as we all have said force armor is gone in 1 hit

[tekhiun]

Well actually Handcuff (sage) is top dps for Operator 9 in 16 man hm (As dread fortress and Palace are still bugged on torparse, i wouldn't count them).

 

All together for the 12 bosses in sv/tfb (both 8 and 16 man) we have (as top dps on torparse without counting parses with dieing):

17 snipers/slingers

4 maras/sentinels

1 Sorc/Sage

1 Powertech/Vanguard

1 Operative/Scoundrel

 

What does your comparision of the dps classes tell us then: Sorcs are the 3rd best dps class (together with Powertech and Operative).

 

Well i missed that one then and I didnt say that THE metric is which one is top dps, it's just ONE the total number of sages and sorc for S&V that are on the top 50 is less than 30 for both 8 man and 16 hm/nim thats out of 700 which is about %4 , which is way below the expected value: 12.5% =) So we can add that to your obsevation and we can conclude that sages and sorcs are second rate dps compared to other dps classes

[THoK-Zeus]

Well i missed that one then and I didnt say that THE metric is which one is top dps, it's just ONE the total number of sages and sorc for S&V that are on the top 50 is less than 30 for both 8 man and 16 hm/nim thats out of 700 which is about %4 , which is way below the expected value: 12.5% =) So we can add that to your obsevation and we can conclude that sages and sorcs are second rate dps compared to other dps classes

 

Well, if 12,5% out of all dps would be sages then you would be correct, but in reality just about 4% of all dps are sorcs. Second rate dps compared to snipers and probably maras (tough they are mdps) probably, but what are assassins, juggernauts,.... then?

 

The problem is more about too many snipers which have too much damage compared to all other classes, then about sorcs being too weak.

Edited November 5, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[Sindariel]

Even so, I would have dealt with pushback more directly--crushing darkness and whirlwind both need direct pushback protection in the second tier.

 

Funny thing about this is, madness sorcs get pushback reduction on crushing darkness in their tree, but no madness sorc in his right mind would ever hard cast crushing darkness.

[tekhiun]

Well, if 12,5% out of all dps would be sages then you would be correct, but in reality just about 4% of all dps are sorcs.

 

Citation needed.

[Xeraz]

Funny thing about this is, madness sorcs get pushback reduction on crushing darkness in their tree, but no madness sorc in his right mind would ever hard cast crushing darkness.

 

Yea, I've always found this funny also. It's like encouraging bad game play.

[MusicRider]

Well i missed that one then and I didnt say that THE metric is which one is top dps, it's just ONE the total number of sages and sorc for S&V that are on the top 50 is less than 30 for both 8 man and 16 hm/nim thats out of 700 which is about %4 , which is way below the expected value: 12.5% =) So we can add that to your obsevation and we can conclude that sages and sorcs are second rate dps compared to other dps classes

That's the most absurd logic ever. The number of dpsers in top 10 does not show the potential dps of the class. That is shown by the actual dps, and if you see the link above or any link for that matter it is just fine within 5% difference. Far from second rate doser. In fact in the link I gave you their potential is as the highest ranged dpsers behind the broken sniper hybrid which is well known that it parses above its normal.

[dscount]

That's the most absurd logic ever. The number of dpsers in top 10 does not show the potential dps of the class. That is shown by the actual dps, and if you see the link above or any link for that matter it is just fine within 5% difference. Far from second rate doser. In fact in the link I gave you their potential is as the highest ranged dpsers behind the broken sniper hybrid which is well known that it parses above its normal.

 

Rider.. go LOOK at all the TORPARSE data for yourself you dang lazy troll.

 

You will see on a MAJORITY of the fights in 8-man HM's that Sage/Sorc DPS and HEALS are not the majority of the top 50 players. In fact on MANY of the fights we barely have 1-2 people represented. To me that is a pretty strong indicator that "HOUSTON, we have a problem". Sure you can say "Bubbles" don't count for healing in torparse, but then why not more DPS in the top 50 then? Quick look at Torparse just now:

 

DF HM 1st Boss - 1/50 DPS, 7/50 Heal

DF HM 2nd Boss - 1/50 DPS, 1/50 Heal

DF HM 3rd Boss - 3/50 DPS, 3/50 Heal

DF HM 4th Boss - 1/50 DPS, 10/50 Heal (Nice we have one "Bugged" fight with 20% represented)

DF HM 5th Boss - 0/50 DPS, 6/50 Heal (ZERO DPS - go figure)

 

I think you get the picture now?

Edited November 5, 2013 by dscount

[MusicRider]

Rider.. go LOOK at all the TORPARSE data for yourself you dang lazy troll.

 

You will see on a MAJORITY of the fights (IE: 90%-95%) in 8-man HM's that Sage/Sorc DPS and HEALS are not the majority of the top 50 players. In fact on a couple of the fights we barely have 1-2 people represented. To me that is a pretty strong indicator that "HOUSTON, we have a problem". Sure you can say "Bubbles" don't count for healing, but then why not more DPS in the top 50 then?

 

I have, but I wonder whether you have seen them. Would you like to tell me s&v CW 16 hm/nm? Both dos and heals? And especially when it comes to heals in pve sages are just fine. Regarding the dominance of slinger and maras, BW finally said that they normally parse higher than anticipated. This does not make sages broken though.

 

I ll restrain from calling names this time.

[Aetrus]

No, just no, we need so much more than just what you have said there.

 

I mean, you could do more changes. Like making Fadeout baseline for all sorcs or making Overload 360 degrees again. Anything else is plain unnecessary.

[MusicRider]

DF is relatively new. I suggest you have a look on long established operations and you will things are not as dramatic as they appear to be.

[dscount]

I have, but I wonder whether you have seen them. Would you like to tell me s&v CW 16 hm/nm? Both dos and heals? And especially when it comes to heals in pve sages are just fine. Regarding the dominance of slinger and maras, BW finally said that they normally parse higher than anticipated. This does not make sages broken though.

 

I ll restrain from calling names this time.

 

Go LOOK IT UP YOURSELF!

 

You read my thread of DATA pulled from TORPARSE and ASK if I've READ them.. Really? YES. . you clearly are trolling people dude. Go look at it yourself as I've just pulled both in a just a couple minutes no problem. It's http://www.torparse.com. (Click fight on left, click boss fight in question, click 8 Man HM/NiM version)

 

DF is relatively new. I suggest you have a look on long established operations and you will things are not as dramatic as they appear to be.

 

OKAY S&V then (You are WRONG again Mr. Trollalot), we got some good numbers in them right? (In two HEALING fights yes, DPS.. not really)

 

S&V HM/NiM 1st Boss - 0/50 DPS, 7/50 Heal (Zero DPS)

S&V HM/NiM 2nd Boss - 0/50 DPS, 1/50 Heal (Zero DPS Again)

S&V HM/NiM 3rd Boss - 1/50 DPS, 6/50 Heal

S&V HM/NiM 4th Boss - 2/50 DPS, 25/50 Heal (50% Sage/Sorc Heal)

S&V HM/NiM 5th Boss - 0/50 DPS, 12/50 Heal (Zero DPS and 20% Sage/Sorc Heals)

S&V HM/NiM 6th Boss - 3/50 DPS, 30/50 Heal (Yes Warlords ROCK w/60% Sage/Sorc Heal)

S&V HM/NiM 7th Boss - 1/50 DPS, 19/50 Heal (Almost 40%)

 

SO GS/Snipers are OP and knock out our SAGE/SORC DPS.. what's the excuse for Healing not listed as much? Either way they have a problem. And BTW - Mara's also dominated a couple fights in Torparse over GS/Snipe.

 

Thanks for SHOPPING! Come back when you have some FACTS to back up that mouth that is running off on "What If scenarios and prove me wrong with data" and not doing your own homework. Are you new to the game or something?

Edited November 5, 2013 by dscount

[MusicRider]

Go LOOK IT UP YOURSELF!

 

You read my thread of DATA pulled from TORPARSE and ASK if I've READ them.. Really? YES. . you clearly are trolling people dude. Go look at it yourself as I've just pulled both in a just a couple minutes no problem. It's http://www.torparse.com. (Click fight on left, click boss fight in question, click 8 Man HM/NiM version)

 

 

 

OKAY S&V then (You are WRONG again Mr. Trollalot), we got some good numbers in them right? (In two HEALING fights yes, DPS.. not really)

 

S&V HM/NiM 1st Boss - 0/50 DPS, 7/50 Heal (Zero DPS)

S&V HM/NiM 2nd Boss - 0/50 DPS, 1/50 Heal (Zero DPS Again)

S&V HM/NiM 3rd Boss - 1/50 DPS, 6/50 Heal

S&V HM/NiM 4th Boss - 2/50 DPS, 25/50 Heal (50% Sage/Sorc Heal)

S&V HM/NiM 5th Boss - 0/50 DPS, 12/50 Heal (Zero DPS and 20% Sage/Sorc Heals)

S&V HM/NiM 6th Boss - 3/50 DPS, 30/50 Heal (Yes Warlords ROCK w/60% Sage/Sorc Heal)

S&V HM/NiM 7th Boss - 1/50 DPS, 19/50 Heal (Almost 40%)

 

SO GS/Snipers are OP and knock out our SAGE/SORC DPS.. what's the excuse for Healing not listed as much? Either way they have a problem. And BTW - Mara's also dominated a couple fights in Torparse over GS/Snipe.

 

Listen monkey, was replying to you while you edited your post. Nevertheless can't be arsed talking to a rude noob. 1st boss s&v in 16 man has with a quick count 4 dps and 21 healers. And healing? Are you for real? Titan has 12, thrasher 38, OC 36. Can't be arsed writing more to a noob that is constantly whining.

[Aetrus]

People whining about Torparse's PvE data should realize just because snipers are OP doesn't mean Sorc DPS is UP.

[skarlson]

A second go of it for lightening:

 

Increase root to 2s for Lightening Swarm so it is more than a speed bump

Increase range of Electrocute to 30m

Add CC immunity to Polarity Shift with Chaos Nexus

Decrease base cast time for Whirlwind to 1.5s

Increase distance of KB slightly for Overload

Add immunity to and removal of movement impairing effects baseline e.g. fadeout

Increase Force Slow movement reduction to 70% as it is a single target slow

 

Fixed or see how it goes before further changes.

[tekhiun]

I have, but I wonder whether you have seen them. Would you like to tell me s&v CW 16 hm/nm? Both dos and heals? And especially when it comes to heals in pve sages are just fine. Regarding the dominance of slinger and maras, BW finally said that they normally parse higher than anticipated. This does not make sages broken though.

 

I ll restrain from calling names this time.

 

"look at that 1 guy , sure sorcs are fine"

[MusicRider]

"look at that 1 guy , sure sorcs are fine"

 

If that's what you understood then oh well. But one thing that sorcs are fine is their dps potential and heals in pve. If ou think otherwise you have a l2p issue. And If you look any of my previous posts you will see what problems I see with the class.

Edited November 5, 2013 by MusicRider

[dscount]

Listen monkey, was replying to you while you edited your post. Nevertheless can't be arsed talking to a rude noob. 1st boss s&v in 16 man has with a quick count 4 dps and 21 healers. And healing? Are you for real? Titan has 12, thrasher 38, OC 36. Can't be arsed writing more to a noob that is constantly whining.

 

Sorry.. I tend to correct my work multiple times.

 

Dude.. you come across as a troll asking people to provide data/details that you could get or an extremely lazy person.

 

Healing in 16 man is WAY DIFFERENT as we do have some "OP" around the overload (Should be 360), but it's not hard to STACK 8-10 people and get a HECK of an HPS count. MOST people are not running 16 man HM Content, in fact most the guilds I know are only 8 man HM groups.

 

EVEN with your data you are showing we have "MOST HEALS" on a whole 2-3 Fights on S&V. Is that correct? The same ones I pointed out as "Good Stats" for healers. Thrasher is no brainer.. Overload FTW. OPS Chief always shocks me, but it's a stacking game as well for AOE heals.

 

Yeah.. I whine! Dang proud of it and I'll do it again. They have a BROKEN CLASS BALANCE here! I'm going to step up and point that out at every chance I get. The metrics guy in the back room clearly doesn't play the game and see the impact of these "math" numbers that say we are "Equal" if not "Close" to other healers. EVERYONE knows that is not the case. Scoun/OP healers out heal 90%-95% of the time and that's with less gear. Yes WE can do some serious healing (A select few are AWESOME Sage/Sorc), but it's almost mind numbingly easy to do the same amount on a Scoun/OP - I play mine when I want to be a lazy healer. I bust my *** to meet/beat OP healer on our HM Content. So I'm pretty sure it's not a L2P issue.

[warstory]

here is why lightning sorcs is not fine

1. our own dot or attacks or other players attacks breaks the stun on force armor, we need this to get distance

2. once again our own attacks or other players break our knockback root

3. every classes highest hits are against us, 10k smash, 10k demo round, ect ect basically everyones highest hit is based off of hitting a sorc (all those attacks are instant btw)

4. force armor takes about 1 - 2 direct hits to break

5. 90% of our attacks can be negated because they are casts

6. our defense is crowd control and if you look at 1-2 above we break our own defenses so we basicly have no defenses.